TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

[Bletchleyite]

You’ll still need a greater service provision than current regardless of what happens in the future. This weekend has been a prime example of services between Leeds and Manchester being full and standing for large portions of the day on the current 4tph (including stoppers).

With 6 car 185s and 5-car 802s? Perhaps time for platform work, 7 or 8-car 80x and 9-car 185 formations? Better to go longer than cram more trains in.

 

[RHolmes]

With 6 car 185s and 5-car 802s? Perhaps time for platform work, 7 or 8-car 80x and 9-car 185 formations? Better to go longer than cram more trains in.

Yes, The weather had a massive impact on passenger numbers this weekend, along with half term, the easing of restrictions and it being a pay weekend for many.

Last week (prior to all of the above) TPE saw 45% of passenger numbers vs 2019 with 70% of the service provision.

 

[HST43257]

There needs to be a balance of length and frequency.

In my experience, the customer values frequency. This doesn’t have to be the full provision, though.
(I spy with my little eye, something that works with 4tph fast or semi fast)

 

[Flinn Reed]

Which diagrams on the Liverpool to Scarborough route use 185s?

Also, more generally, what was the reason for TPE ordering 3 different types (68/Mk5, 397 & 802), rather than having a more uniform fleet like some other operators?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which diagrams on the Liverpool to Scarborough route use 185s?

Also, more generally, what was the reason for TPE ordering 3 different types (68/Mk5, 397 & 802), rather than having a more uniform fleet like some other operators?

I believe 2 reasons:
1. While it didn't work out that way, CAF had said they would deliver sooner than Hitachi.
2. I believe (read it here) the franchise spec was written such that it would be impossible to do a compliant bid without including at least some LHCS. I believe this was pushing towards loco hauled 442s (yes, they're in again! ) but First went for new-build.

 

[Watershed]

Which diagrams on the Liverpool to Scarborough route use 185s?

Err, none. There's only one Liverpool-Scarborough service a day currently - the 06:54, which is a 68.

Also, more generally, what was the reason for TPE ordering 3 different types (68/Mk5, 397 & 802), rather than having a more uniform fleet like some other operators?

Promised delivery dates and cost, essentially. But of course, with 20/20 hindsight it's easy to say it was a mistake!

 

[SuperNova]

With 6 car 185s and 5-car 802s? Perhaps time for platform work, 7 or 8-car 80x and 9-car 185 formations? Better to go longer than cram more trains in.

Impossible due to platform lengths.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Liverpool to Nottingham still seems a sensible place for them to go to me, maintaining them at Edge Hill and Crown Point Nottingham, neither of which, I believe, are located such that the noise would be an issue.

The problems with that are (a) restricted speeds compared to the current 158s due to SP/MU differentials; and (b) platforming at Sheffield- the current Liverpool to Norwich reverses in a bay that can only hold 4-cars, so using the Mk5a sets means using one of the through platforms- which might cause issues for other services.

Here's a novel solution though: how about providing the local residents with an unlimited supply of free earplugs?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Impossible due to platform lengths.

Extend them, as my post actually said. Nothing is impossible with the right funding.

We need to stop the "mini trains on excessive frequencies" thing and run proper, long trains like mainland Europe does, on sensible but not excessive frequencies and with quality, planned connections.

200m (8x25m if you're building new) is perhaps a sensible thing to standardise on, as then the standard NPR train can be a single HS2 classic compatible unit.

 

[D6975]

Extending platforms is long overdue on many routes. Some routes have platforms that have been deliberately shortened to reduce maintenance costs, very short sighted but economically attractive. Lots of these around my Bristol home.
On the TP route Huddersfield in particular would be mega expensive, platform lengths are currently constrained by tunnels at one end and a viaduct at the other. But if the optimistic vision of a new TP route eventually comes about, lots of long distance TP services won't touch Huddersfield, they'll be RA Manchester-Bradford. Not much use in the short term though, something needs to be done in the near future.

 

[SuperNova]

Extend them, as my post actually said. Nothing is impossible with the right funding.

We need to stop the "mini trains on excessive frequencies" thing and run proper, long trains like mainland Europe does, on sensible but not excessive frequencies and with quality, planned connections.

200m (8x25m if you're building new) is perhaps a sensible thing to standardise on, as then the standard NPR train can be a single HS2 classic compatible unit.

It's not as simple as that though is it? That would require significant investment in a lot of stations, some of which won't have the capacity to handle the lengths of trains. Plus 4 trains an hour that carry 300+ people is more preferable than two trains an hour that carry 600+ - frequency is something passengers enjoy.

On the TP route Huddersfield in particular would be mega expensive, platform lengths are currently constrained by tunnels at one end and a viaduct at the other. But if the optimistic vision of a new TP route eventually comes about, lots of long distance TP services won't touch Huddersfield, they'll be RA Manchester-Bradford. Not much use in the short term though, something needs to be done in the near future.

Huddersfield is being rebuilt in a few years time with longer platforms built into the plan. The TWAO shows this.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Just one more set into service over summer would be great. Enough to have almost exclusively Nova 3 into Scarbados.

Can only hope.

 

[JonathanH]

Just one more set into service over summer would be great. Enough to have almost exclusively Nova 3 into Scarbados.

Can only hope.

Isn't it the case that the mixed diagrams allow traincrew who don't know 68+Mk5 to retain route knowledge to Scarborough and traincrew who know 68+Mk5 to retain traction knowledge on 185s.

 

[Watershed]

Isn't it the case that the mixed diagrams allow traincrew who don't know 68+Mk5 to retain route knowledge to Scarborough and traincrew who know 68+Mk5 to retain traction knowledge on 185s.

Yep, precisely. If you didn't have any 185s to Scarborough, the 802 link at York (who don't sign 68s) would lose Scarborough off their route cards, amongst other logistical implications. However Scarborough work to Redcar etc. so they wouldn't be in danger of losing 185 knowledge.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Hence my "almost" exclusively

 

[47827]

Whatever happens Scarborough logically must be given an odd turn indefinitely on a 185 or two, even if it was only over a modest distance as the things will always be cover for 68/mk5 sets so long as 185s exist in the TPE fleet as the reliability of the hauled sets can't be guaranteed and operational incidents that warrant it can never be 100% preventable. All assuming that 68s ever get a monopoly on the Scarborough line. We already know several services a day each way to Middlesbrough and Redcar will remain 185s so if Scarborough sign there then logically the solution already exists, although if the crew do go as far as Manchester there are umpteen services they could work legs of from York or Leeds (even a little trip on a Huddersfield stopper) to keep competency regular.

 

[HST43257]

Whatever happens Scarborough logically must be given an odd turn indefinitely on a 185 or two, even if it was only over a modest distance as the things will always be cover for 68/mk5 sets so long as 185s exist in the TPE fleet as the reliability of the hauled sets can't be guaranteed and operational incidents that warrant it can never be 100% preventable. All assuming that 68s ever get a monopoly on the Scarborough line. We already know several services a day each way to Middlesbrough and Redcar will remain 185s so if Scarborough sign there then logically the solution already exists, although if the crew do go as far as Manchester there are umpteen services they could work legs of from York or Leeds (even a little trip on a Huddersfield stopper) to keep competency regular.

Pretty sure 802s did a small amount of SCA line work, could they cover if route cleared?

 

[47827]

Pretty sure 802s did a small amount of SCA line work, could they cover if route cleared?

Much easier to simply stick to 185s as universal cover if all depots that work to Scarborough have them as standard rolling stock previously and up until the present day. If there was a set swap on the current diagrams at Scarborough, as sometimes happens, there's every risk an 802 wouldn't then be the same crew that took it in and signed it and the traincrew would then be forced to be swapped too with additional implications. 185s will tend to be spare at York and Manchester, although can be ripped off a 6 car formation in an emergency as per what's happened when a 68 set is failed on prep or during the day on the branch.

 

[Watershed]

Pretty sure 802s did a small amount of SCA line work, could they cover if route cleared?

No, 802s aren't booked to Scarborough. They are cleared, so in theory it could happen on a service worked by a York 802 link driver, but it's extremely unlikely.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Extend them, as my post actually said. Nothing is impossible with the right funding.
We need to stop the "mini trains on excessive frequencies" thing and run proper, long trains like mainland Europe does, on sensible but not excessive frequencies and with quality, planned connections.
200m (8x25m if you're building new) is perhaps a sensible thing to standardise on, as then the standard NPR train can be a single HS2 classic compatible unit.

Oxford Road is 160m (162m on P4), so that's the ruling length on Northern and TPE at the moment.
We all know the rebuild would have been for 8x23m, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.

 

[JonathanH]

Oxford Road is 160m (162m on P4), so that's the ruling length on Northern and TPE at the moment.
We all know the rebuild would have been for 8x23m, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.

If Oxford Road could be dropped by TPE (ie doors not open) what becomes the ruling length constraint instead, ignoring the current length of the rolling stock?

 

[RHolmes]

No, 802s aren't booked to Scarborough. They are cleared, so in theory it could happen on a service worked by a York 802 link driver, but it's extremely unlikely.

Logistically it won’t ever happen as both the conductor and driver need to be traction trained on a 802.

If the driver is doing a York to Scarborough and back it doesn’t mean the conductor is and therefore you might end up with a Scarborough conductor who doesn’t sign 802s.

Additionally there are a large number of Manchester Piccadilly drivers and Manchester Airport conductors which operate the Scarborough route diagrams with no 802 traction knowledge.

 

[Watershed]

If Oxford Road could be dropped by TPE (ie doors not open) what becomes the ruling length constraint instead, ignoring the current length of the rolling stock?

Manchester Airport, arguably. That's 196m, i.e. enough for 8×23m, however even now with 4 platforms, platform sharing is inherently required in most timetables. So that would require an extension, which would be quite difficult to do.

Piccadilly's low numbered platforms is a similar situation, albeit they are a little longer (the shortest is 3 at 237m) so you could probably 'get away' with it if you modified the track circuits to allow platform sharing with a long train at the buffers. Obviously an extension is completely impracticable.

Huddersfield would be an issue until it's remodelled as part of the TRU scheme. It might be another 10 years from now until that's done.

Scarborough only has 1 long platform (no 1), which is also the only one to have access to the excursion sidings, turntable and TMD (so can't always be used, particularly during the summer when the Scarborough Spa Express runs). The next longest is platform 2, which at 183m wouldn't quite fit a 8×23m train. So that could be an issue.

Newcastle has a decent number of platforms, including bays, but only the through platforms would be long enough for 8×23m, so again, that's a bit of a nuisance if you are sending 2tph there.

Various intermediate stations aren't 8×23m long, but as long as the majority of the train fits on the platform, SDO is a short to medium term 'sticking plaster'.

So basically - 8×23m isn't totally impossible, but it is right at the limit of what is possible and it would require a lot of compromises (likely including in the timetable) to make it work.

 

[Seehof]

Are all the Scarboroughs currently 68s? Thanks

 

[Spartacus]

Dewsbury or Malton are the two I'd be concerned about, both constrained by loop length. Unless you want to try and force even more people into cars though reducing frequency through a densely populated area, it's simply isn't going to happen and seems firmly within the speculation thread's remit.

 

[Watershed]

Are all the Scarboroughs currently 68s? Thanks

About three quarters are - you can see what's allocated on the day on RTT.

There are 3 68 sets and one double 185 that are booked to work the line. It's nominally a three hourly cycle - 49 minute journey time and about 40 minutes turnaround at each end - but in some hours the trains don't go straight out on the next departure (some have a 1 hour 40 turnaround, or longer, at either Scarborough or York).

 

[nicolaboo]

(b) platforming at Sheffield- the current Liverpool to Norwich reverses in a bay that can only hold 4-cars, so using the Mk5a sets means using one of the through platforms- which might cause issues for other services.

Have these changed recently?
Whenever I've been at Sheffield for these they used to use P2 (through platform).

 

[43055]

Have these changed recently?
Whenever I've been at Sheffield for these they used to use P2 (through platform).

They use a mix. Most EMR services to Liverpool use platform 2A and from Liverpool platform 7 is used most hours. In some cases other platforms are used.

If anyone is interested 68020 and 68030 are on the 1934 Scarborough to York and 2200 return tonight

 

[sjpowermac]

They use a mix. Most EMR services to Liverpool use platform 2A and from Liverpool platform 7 is used most hours. In some cases other platforms are used.

If anyone is interested 68020 and 68030 are on the 1934 Scarborough to York and 2200 return tonight
View attachment 98230

Good spot!

Unfortunately 68020 is currently at Longsight. It was due to work empties over to Scarborough this afternoon, but didn’t. 68030 has since switched diagrams so as to keep two Mk5a sets at Scarborough tonight. I suspect this is a TRUST error.

The ten coach train would have been nice to see though

 

[Jamesrob637]

They use a mix. Most EMR services to Liverpool use platform 2A and from Liverpool platform 7 is used most hours. In some cases other platforms are used.

If anyone is interested 68020 and 68030 are on the 1934 Scarborough to York and 2200 return tonight
View attachment 98230

Amazing! 10-car TPE. That'll be needed post-pandemic as everybody moves to the North where a pint only costs a fiver in 10% of spots and not in 90%