TPE Overcrowding: Due to excessive numbers of cheap APs?

[Bertie the bus]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #9 originally in this thread.

Build it and they will come if TransPennine Express's passenger numbers after new rolling stock was introduced in the mid-2000s is anything to go by.

TPE services are packed because they have a policy of over selling dirt cheap Advance tickets and leaving virtually no seats for passengers with walk up tickets. Nothing to do with the rolling stock, and a pretty disgraceful way to run a railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TPE services are packed because they have a policy of over selling dirt cheap Advance tickets and leaving virtually no seats for passengers with walk up tickets. Nothing to do with the rolling stock, and a pretty disgraceful way to run a railway.

TPE's services are not packed for that reason. They are packed because they (in conjunction with whatever bit of Government was responsible at the time) ordered rolling stock with a lower capacity than what ran previously (3-car 158s on most main services) and somehow expected that together with ridership increases from upgraded timetables that they would fit everybody on. Fairly obviously they couldn't, as anyone who had not had their head in a bucket of sand while the Virgin XC debacle (still not solved 20+ years on) did exactly the same thing could tell you.

The 185s should have been 4-car from day one with an option (taken up) to extend them to 5 or even 6-car by the mid 2010s.

 

[Bertie the bus]

No. They are packed for the reason I gave. If they didn't sell Advance tickets for just about every seat, even on peak services, they wouldn't be as heavily loaded.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No. They are packed for the reason I gave. If they didn't sell Advance tickets for just about every seat, even on peak services, they wouldn't be as heavily loaded.

They don't "sell Advance tickets for just about every seat".

Anyway, fancy creating a new thread for this? If not I'll leave it there.

 

[snail]

They don't "sell Advance tickets for just about every seat".

Advance or not, TPE have very few seats available on their services that are not reserved. Attempting to drag this back on topic, that may well be a reason the 195s are becoming popular as Matthew S observed, they are filling up but you have a fighting chance of a seat, particularly north of Preston where there are few alternatives.

 

[Tim_UK]

TPE services are packed because they have a policy of over selling dirt cheap Advance tickets and leaving virtually no seats for passengers with walk up tickets. Nothing to do with the rolling stock, and a pretty disgraceful way to run a railway.

Do you have some numbers or evidence?

In my view, TPE is packed, simply because it is a good service. I use the service weekly, at all kinds of days and times. And my family use it daily. Even off peak, it is full. It is over a year since I've managed to get an advance ticket that would be significantly cheaper than a walkup.

And I see plenty of seat reservations, but they are not always used. Suggesting not advanced tickets.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I was on that yesterday - it was awful. I don't know if you made it as far as Preston, but it took a good 3 or 4 minutes to unload everyone with their suitcases.

TPE services are packed because they have a policy of over selling dirt cheap Advance tickets and leaving virtually no seats for passengers with walk up tickets.

As I keep saying, the big issue is enough seats. I'm sorry to be repetative. It isn't new trains, it isn't the 769s, it isn't Connect specs, it is capacity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my view, TPE is packed, simply because it is a good service. I use the service weekly, at all kinds of days and times. And my family use it daily. Even off peak, it is full. It is over a year since I've managed to get an advance ticket that would be significantly cheaper than a walkup.

As I said, TPE is packed because they reduced its capacity when the 185s were introduced - the 3-car 158s were already busy. The capacity was then reduced again when they were forced to start using 185s to Scotland (though increased with the 350s) and reduced again with the loss of the 170s.

Demand remains high because while the North has the densest motorway network in the country it is also very busy so driving is grim, there's also no "nice" way to drive from Manchester to Sheffield if you're not doing it to admire scenery.

 

[childwallblues]

TPE services are packed because they have a policy of over selling dirt cheap Advance tickets and leaving virtually no seats for passengers with walk up tickets. Nothing to do with the rolling stock, and a pretty disgraceful way to run a railway.

Three of us used the 0803 TPE from Preston to Glasgow Central yesterday morning. Our tickets were booked about two months ago and were £10 cheaper than on the following 0815 Virgin service.
I walked through the train north of Carlisle and it was about 90% full. A further 20+ boarded at Lockerbie so in my opinion the TPE cheap tickets are an attraction.Several more of my colleagues had boarded the following Virgin service at Warrington Bank Quay and reported that there was plenty of room in their carriage (E).
All nine of us returned on the 1840 and save one person who alighted at Carlisle were the only occupants of Carrige U until Oxenholme.
In my opinion TPE are attracting passengers from Virgin and is likely to uncrease when the 397s come into service.

 

[rg177]

On the Hope Valley route they win my custom almost every time as it's half price on TPE with a 16-25 railcard booked in advance. When a peak time train is something daft like £4.60 single with a reservation from Manchester to Sheffield, booked the night before, you're hardly going to say no. It's made commuting for work (which is sporadic university work) much easier. Northern and EMT also push some VERY cheap advance fares on the route.

They're almost always full but never rammed unless it's high peak.

Even the undiscounted fare of £9.20 could be considered decent value.

 

[hwl]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #9 originally in this thread.


TPE services are packed because they have a policy of over selling dirt cheap Advance tickets and leaving virtually no seats for passengers with walk up tickets. Nothing to do with the rolling stock, and a pretty disgraceful way to run a railway.

A ticket doesn't include the right to a seat. Maximising capacity involves passengers standing and this is what TPE are doing is what all the non-dedicated IC operators.
The average TPE passenger is only paying 60% of the cost of providing the service when direct and indirect subsidy is taken into account and this has actually improved so the current TPE plan is working. You may not like what they are doing but it is not disgraceful

 

[hwl]

On the Hope Valley route they win my custom almost every time as it's half price on TPE with a 16-25 railcard booked in advance. When a peak time train is something daft like £4.60 single with a reservation from Manchester to Sheffield, booked the night before, you're hardly going to say no. It's made commuting for work (which is sporadic university work) much easier. Northern and EMT also push some VERY cheap advance fares on the route.

They're almost always full but never rammed unless it's high peak.

Even the undiscounted fare of £9.20 could be considered decent value.

As i said the other day in another thread many Northern and TPE fares are very good value on a per mile basis - the undiscounted fare you quoted is still 25-45% lower than equivalent London and SE commuter fares /mile over similar distances.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Is the OP proposing that the solution to TPE overcrowding is to give fares a massive hike? Because that isn't going to work (see CrossCountry for more details).

 

[a_c_skinner]

A ticket doesn't include the right to a seat.

Indeed, but it ought to come with a reasonable expectation of a seat. Thinking it doesn't come with the right to a seat is part of an attitude to passengers that is unsatisfactory. I come from the NHS and for years senior medical staff (in hospitals at least) often had a take it or leave it attitude that basically the service was charity and people were lucky to get it.

 

[_toommm_]

On the Hope Valley route they win my custom almost every time as it's half price on TPE with a 16-25 railcard booked in advance. When a peak time train is something daft like £4.60 single with a reservation from Manchester to Sheffield, booked the night before, you're hardly going to say no. It's made commuting for work (which is sporadic university work) much easier. Northern and EMT also push some VERY cheap advance fares on the route.

They're almost always full but never rammed unless it's high peak.

Even the undiscounted fare of £9.20 could be considered decent value.

The cheapest fare TPE offer with that promotion is a measly £2.50, and they're easily accessible even the day before travel.

I commuted for nearly a year between Manchester and Sheffield on TPE using advances, and I saved a good 50%+ using the advances compared to a season ticket.

 

[rich r]

My experience of a busy TPE service (Leeds-Selby every weekday at 16:48) is that it's about half full of people travelling a longer distance (eg Manchester to Hull) who have reserved seats, and half full of commuters who don't mind standing for 20 minutes rather than spend 45 minutes crammed in a Northern Pacer doing the same route. I know I fall into that category - standing on a 185 with aircon and relatively low noise levels is certainly the more preferable option.

 

[yorkie]

TPE services are packed because they have a policy of over selling dirt cheap Advance tickets and leaving virtually no seats for passengers with walk up tickets. Nothing to do with the rolling stock, and a pretty disgraceful way to run a railway.

I've seen the opposite effect.

On the York to Manchester route, I used to get cheap £7 advances on quieter trains. I can no longer purchase these for any train whenever I look. So I get walk-up tickets and travel at a more convenient time for me.

The busier trains seem to have become even busier, and the quieter evening trains tend to be quieter than they used to be.

 

[Starmill]

In general, this is a cheap and dirty answer to a complicated question.

I also find this complaint is almost exclusively driven by jealousy from people who feel they've paid much too much for their journey, and dislike the idea that other people on the train haven't been similarly ripped off.

It's ironic too, because on the North TransPennine routes it's harder than ever to find sensibly priced tickets. For example, the 2209 from Leeds to Manchester on a Tuesday night. This train is pretty much dead, you can almost guarantee it. And yet the Advance tickets for it are no saving over a walk-up return. If I need to make this journey these days I will usually be found on a Northern Advance too.

 

[Camden]

TPE services are packed because they have a policy of over selling dirt cheap Advance tickets and leaving virtually no seats for passengers with walk up tickets. Nothing to do with the rolling stock, and a pretty disgraceful way to run a railway.

If that was true then the northern trains which run at the same time and similar routes to TPE would be empty. But all the trains you would expect are packed to the rafters. People don't choose to travel on the 07:25 and 07:28 out of Liverpool Lime Street. They have to in order to get to work. Although I accept that unemployment might be higher if everyone had to pay full rip off price.

 

[bunnahabhain]

AP tickets are both a boon and a curse. They're absolutely brilliant for the occasional traveller to go long distances at a reasonable price, such as Liverpool to Newcastle. But for short distances like Liverpool to Manchester they're a curse for traincrew and passengers alike, especially with TPE tickets being routed via Victoria, so if you book from Piccadilly you're booked to travel around on a TPE to Victoria and change there, usually at the time a direct Liverpool service operated by Northern or EMT is due, thereby giving rise to confusion amongst passengers and staff who aren't revenue trained but direct them onto other operators services which then sees them potentially penalty fared or issued a full price single ticket for not following the conditions of their ticket.

I like them from the perspective of giving Ethel and Ada a cheap way to see their family, I hate them for causing excessive confusion, we've had them for so long now and confusion still arises because the reservation is either on another coupon, or in such small print that most folk can't read it anyway. There has to be a better way.

 

[route101]

Is a pain boarding a busy Glasgow or Edinburgh at Picc P14 , not enough carriages . I think the only unreserved bit is small standard next to first class carriage . Last week went from Manchester airport and managed to sit in seats that they forgot to put reservation slips on .

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's interesting is that TPE seem to be heavily pushing Advances, while as I mentioned on another thread I've never found one applicable to my journey on GWR, ever (not even an overpriced one - none at all) - the different approaches in FirstGroup are very notable.

 

[Ianno87]

I've seen the opposite effect.

On the York to Manchester route, I used to get cheap £7 advances on quieter trains. I can no longer purchase these for any train whenever I look. So I get walk-up tickets and travel at a more convenient time for me.

The busier trains seem to have become even busier, and the quieter evening trains tend to be quieter than they used to be.

This is the commercial down-side of Advance tickets. Why sell you a £7 ticket when you're more than happy to pay for a walk-up anyway?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is the commercial down-side of Advance tickets. Why sell you a £7 ticket when you're more than happy to pay for a walk-up anyway?

Depends how cheap they are. A TOC benefits from selling an Advance at £10 instead of a walk-up at £11 because they get all of the £10 (minus the seller commission) but possibly on many TPE flows only half of the £11.

I will generally only use them if the saving is substantial, as the loss of flexibility is a big loss for me, particularly as none of the UK planners (unlike DB, say) will allow you to specify lengths of layover at intermediate stations (and BoJ isn't allowed anyway). This only tends to happen for a single journey due to the policy of pricing returns £1 cheaper than singles.

 

[Ianno87]

Depends how cheap they are. A TOC benefits from selling an Advance at £10 instead of a walk-up at £11 because they get all of the £10 (minus the seller commission) but possibly on many TPE flows only half of the £11.

I will generally only use them if the saving is substantial, as the loss of flexibility is a big loss for me, particularly as none of the UK planners (unlike DB, say) will allow you to specify lengths of layover at intermediate stations (and BoJ isn't allowed anyway). This only tends to happen for a single journey due to the policy of pricing returns £1 cheaper than singles.

But in the York-Manchester example, I'd imagine TPE would get the lion's share of the walk-up fare anyway (£30 off peak return without a Railcard), being the only direct operator, with 4 trains per hour, and much faster than any other possible route.

 

[Iskra]

TP are using advances to undermine the competition where it exists. They overcrowd their trains to deprive EMT and VTWC of revenue and gain it for themselves. It’s sensible from a revenue perspective, but not great for passengers on 3/4 car trains.

I’ve lived on 4 TP routes and they are all the same: rammed. But, this as much down to short trains as it is advance tickets.

It will be interesting to see what changes occur from a revenue strategy perspective when the new trains arrive.

 

[ainsworth74]

But in the York-Manchester example, I'd imagine TPE would get the lion's share of the walk-up fare anyway (£30 off peak return without a Railcard), being the only direct operator, with 4 trains per hour, and much faster than any other possible route.

If @yorkie is buying a straight York - Manchester Off-Peak Return I'll eat a chocolate hat

 

[cactustwirly]

In general, this is a cheap and dirty answer to a complicated question.

I also find this complaint is almost exclusively driven by jealousy from people who feel they've paid much too much for their journey, and dislike the idea that other people on the train haven't been similarly ripped off.

It's ironic too, because on the North TransPennine routes it's harder than ever to find sensibly priced tickets. For example, the 2209 from Leeds to Manchester on a Tuesday night. This train is pretty much dead, you can almost guarantee it. And yet the Advance tickets for it are no saving over a walk-up return. If I need to make this journey these days I will usually be found on a Northern Advance too.

I think you should be grateful that advances are offered at all!
In the South East, or any other part of the country, it would just be walk ups.
For example there are a few advances from Reading to Swindon, but they are so limited in numbers, so often have to buy an Off Peak return which is ridiculously expensive.
However if you're clever with the fares, there's a partcular ticket you can use (or another one if you're travelling beyond), which cuts the cost down considerably, but it is a bit risky.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

In the South East, or any other part of the country, it would just be walk ups.

Southeastern, Southern and SWR all define Advances within their networks. Admittedly not all routes have that option but it doesn't have to be a massive length of journey for them to exist - e.g. there are London to Chatham and Gatwick Airport to Brighton Advances.

 

[jtuk]

On the Hope Valley route they win my custom almost every time as it's half price on TPE with a 16-25 railcard booked in advance. When a peak time train is something daft like £4.60 single with a reservation from Manchester to Sheffield, booked the night before, you're hardly going to say no. It's made commuting for work (which is sporadic university work) much easier. Northern and EMT also push some VERY cheap advance fares on the route.

They're almost always full but never rammed unless it's high peak.

Even the undiscounted fare of £9.20 could be considered decent value.

I do Stockport - Sheffield frequently and will always use EMT wherever possible given the trains are nicer and, unless short formed, almost certainly having plenty of free seats. TPE do cheaper advances, but they very rarely offer any discount over a Wayfarer + return from Grindleford, factor in the additional cost of a local return to get to Stockport that's covered by the Wayfarer, and they're never cheaper