TPE Overcrowding: Due to excessive numbers of cheap APs?

[cactustwirly]

I do Stockport - Sheffield frequently and will always use EMT wherever possible given the trains are nicer and, unless short formed, almost certainly having plenty of free seats. TPE do cheaper advances, but they very rarely offer any discount over a Wayfarer + return from Grindleford, factor in the additional cost of a local return to get to Stockport that's covered by the Wayfarer, and they're never cheaper

Btw, if you have a Wayfarer, you can still use TPE as the train doesn't need to stop at the splitting point if you have a day Ranger or daily Zonal ticket

 

[sprunt]

TP are using advances to undermine the competition where it exists. They overcrowd their trains to deprive EMT and VTWC of revenue and gain it for themselves. It’s sensible from a revenue perspective, but not great for passengers on 3/4 car trains.

While I agree that it's not great for passengers, "undermine" seems a strong word here. Aren't they just competing as they should do in a privatised system? If Asda cut the price of bread, nobody says they're undermining Tesco and Sainsbury's.

 

[jtuk]

Btw, if you have a Wayfarer, you can still use TPE as the train doesn't need to stop at the splitting point if you have a day Ranger or daily Zonal ticket

I know, neither does EMT, my point was that TPE doesn't offer enough of a discount to make using them worthwhile, if there's a discount at all. Doing a dummy booking just now for 10 days time and there's nothing cheaper than walk up fares for the journey I want

 

[Iskra]

The are undermining the ticket revenue of VTWC and EMT- that is literally what they are doing. I’m not necessarily saying it’s a negative thing. It’s a manifestation of competition.

While I agree that it's not great for passengers, "undermine" seems a strong word here. Aren't they just competing as they should do in a privatised system? If Asda cut the price of bread, nobody says they're undermining Tesco and Sainsbury's.

 

[rich r]

However tickets on Northern services covering exactly the same routes often at almost the same departure times from major stations (albeit with more stops) cost less than TPE. So it's clearly targetted at TOCs other than Northern. Mind you, east of the Pennines, there's not as much competition I guess. Comfy airconditioned TPE or a squealy, rattley, jerky, smelly Northern Pacer or Sprinter...

 

[Bletchleyite]

If @yorkie is buying a straight York - Manchester Off-Peak Return I'll eat a chocolate hat

I'd happily eat my hat if it was one of these: https://www.eatyourhat.com/

(Or none; I never actually wear one!)

 

[TurbostarFan]

I will generally only use them if the saving is substantial, as the loss of flexibility is a big loss for me, particularly as none of the UK planners (unlike DB, say) will allow you to specify lengths of layover at intermediate stations (and BoJ isn't allowed anyway). This only tends to happen for a single journey due to the policy of pricing returns £1 cheaper than singles.

Did you mean "the policy of pricing advance singles £1.00 cheaper than returns"?

 

[RLBH]

While I agree that it's not great for passengers, "undermine" seems a strong word here. Aren't they just competing as they should do in a privatised system? If Asda cut the price of bread, nobody says they're undermining Tesco and Sainsbury's.

The critical difference is, if Asda cut the price of bread in hopes of undermining Tesco and Sainsbury's, they make sure that they have enough bread to sell. And Tesco and Sainsbury's, seeing that they're losing business, can buy less bread.

Rail operators have no realistic way of providing more space on trains to match the custom that they're gaining, or reducing capacity to reduce cost if they lose business.

 

[yorksrob]

The reason for overcrowding is a lack of capacity for the route, pure and simple. Leeds - Manchester for example, is a comparatively expensive route for walk on fares for such a short distance.

When the 158's were replaced by the 185's a capacity increase should have been built in then, but the Government at the time felt that trains carried around a lot of fresh air and reduced capacity per train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The reason for overcrowding is a lack of capacity for the route, pure and simple. Leeds - Manchester for example, is a comparatively expensive route for walk on fares for such a short distance.

When the 158's were replaced by the 185's a capacity increase should have been built in then, but the Government at the time felt that trains carried around a lot of fresh air and reduced capacity per train.

Though the fact was that the TPE 158s were not carrying fresh air, and so there were issues from day one.

My very first trip on a 185 was overcrowded.

 

[AM9]

The reason for overcrowding is a lack of capacity for the route, pure and simple. Leeds - Manchester for example, is a comparatively expensive route for walk on fares for such a short distance. ...

It's not the route that is particularly lacking in capacity, - especially whilst three-car trains are running packed-out. If the Manchester, Huddersfield, Leeds and York platforms were accommodating trains on TPS services at their maximum length then those trains would not be so overcrowded.

 

[Master29]

No. They are packed for the reason I gave. If they didn't sell Advance tickets for just about every seat, even on peak services, they wouldn't be as heavily loaded.

God forbid that any of us prolls should try for cheap tickets. I`ll just go back to eating cake.

 

[Starmill]

As far as I can see there has been no significant increase in capacity on the North TransPennine route since 2014, when the 6th train was added resulting in a modest increase. There were big problems in 2014 and indeed quite a long time before 2014, and yet here we are in 2019 wondering why there is still so much overcrowding. Quite a number of units have been released to TransPennine Express since then from the North West routes, as these have now finally all been covered by Northern. As far as I can see those haven't been used to increase capacity at all though. Extra trains have gone on more services between York and Newcastle, longer turnarounds at Manchester Airport and Scarborough, and more recently on removing the Northern unit hired in daily for the Huddersfield line. Indeed, as I understand it, the 6 car diagram on the North TransPennine which started on the 0644 Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough was reduced to 3 car at the May timetable change. TPE used to encourage people from Huddersfield and Dewsbury to catch this train, as it arrived at Leeds at 0807. Now they have to encourage people to avoid it.

Blaming the sale of a few (usually rather pricey) Advance tickets for the state we are in, where things were bad 5 years ago and essentially no more capacity has been added since then, with some taken away here and there, is a little silly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Blaming the sale of a few (usually rather pricey) Advance tickets for the state we are in, where things were bad 5 years ago and essentially no more capacity has been added since then, with some taken away here and there, is a little silly.

I agree - this is nothing like the "price dumping" that has been going on on the Trent Valley LM/LNR services, for example (though which is no longer really a problem due to most trains being extended to 8-car).

 

[cactustwirly]

As far as I can see there has been no significant increase in capacity on the North TransPennine route since 2014, when the 6th train was added resulting in a modest increase. There were big problems in 2014 and indeed quite a long time before 2014, and yet here we are in 2019 wondering why there is still so much overcrowding. Quite a number of units have been released to TransPennine Express since then from the North West routes, as these have now finally all been covered by Northern. As far as I can see those haven't been used to increase capacity at all though. Extra trains have gone on more services between York and Newcastle, longer turnarounds at Manchester Airport and Scarborough, and more recently on removing the Northern unit hired in daily for the Huddersfield line. Indeed, as I understand it, the 6 car diagram on the North TransPennine which started on the 0644 Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough was reduced to 3 car at the May timetable change. TPE used to encourage people from Huddersfield and Dewsbury to catch this train, as it arrived at Leeds at 0807. Now they have to encourage people to avoid it.

Blaming the sale of a few (usually rather pricey) Advance tickets for the state we are in, where things were bad 5 years ago and essentially no more capacity has been added since then, with some taken away here and there, is a little silly.

But hopefully in a few months you'll have new 5 car trains providing a huge boost in capacity

 

[Starmill]

But hopefully in a few months you'll have new 5 car trains providing a huge boost in capacity

These have been coming 'in a few months time' since early 2016. So far, nothing has changed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

These have been coming 'in a few months time' since early 2016. So far, nothing has changed.

It will also be interesting to see precisely how much suppressed demand there is, and precisely how overcrowded they end up within short order.

 

[Starmill]

Here's some sample pricing for Leeds to Manchester next Tuesday night, 16 July. It is admittedly July but will mostly not be during the school holidays, and there's no obvious evidence of a large event in Leeds.

TP 1939 £13.90 *
NT 1939 £4.50
TP 1950 £11.80
TP 2007 £13.90
TP 2018 £11.80
NT 2018 £4.50
NT 2021 £4.50
TP 2034 £11.80
TP 2039 £13.90 *
NT 2039 £4.50
TP 2105 £11.80
NT 2118 £4.50
NT 2121 £4.50
TP 2134 £11.80
TP 2139 £11.80 *
NT 2139 £4.50
TP 2205 £11.80
TP 2216 £11.80
NT 2218 £4.50
TP 2234 £11.80
TP 2240 £12.80 *
NT 2239 £4.50
TP 2303 £11.80
TP 2335 £14.90
TP 2340 £12.80
TP 0008 £14.90

*TransPennine Express stopping service (incl. Mossley, Stalybridge)

The walk-on single fare for these services is £21.90 (or £17.40 for Northern Only). Even if one were only going one-way, on a relatively quiet train at one of the least busy times of the week, you would not be making a great saving from committing yourself to any of those TransPennine Express trains. Of course as with most routes, the walk-on single fare is a rip-off, and the return fare at £22 is the more likely comparison. As you can see, every single Advance ticket TransPennine Express are selling (on the quietest trains) is more than half of the cost of a return - making it near certain that a return ticket will be cheaper. A period return is only £1.40 more than a day return, so even if one were staying overnight, one would almost certainly find a return ticket cheaper than a pair of Advance tickets.

This is what @yorkie was talking about. These TransPennine Express Advance tickets are a rip off. There are only very limited circumstances where someone would actually be better off buying one. TPE are doing very little to encourage people to travel at quieter times. The Off Peak tickets in question do not have afternoon restrictions, so it is far more likely that people will just travel whenever they want, rather than waiting for these post-peak trains which have a few empty seats.

Northern have sensibly identified that trains leaving Leeds at 9pm Tuesday will have a low load factor, and reacted accordingly to this by cutting prices. Hopefully this demonstrates my above point as to why I usually end up giving them my business now.

It's also noteworthy that in May 2018, TPE significantly expanded their number of evening departures from Leeds to Manchester. There used to be a 2141, 2209, 2241, 2309, 2335 and that was it. Look at it now!

 

[_toommm_]

Here's some sample pricing for Leeds to Manchester next Tuesday night, 16 July. It is admittedly July but will mostly not be during the school holidays, and there's no obvious evidence of a large event in Leeds.

TP 1939 £13.90 *
NT 1939 £4.50
TP 1950 £11.80
TP 2007 £13.90
TP 2018 £11.80
NT 2018 £4.50
NT 2021 £4.50
TP 2034 £11.80
TP 2039 £13.90 *
NT 2039 £4.50
TP 2105 £11.80
NT 2118 £4.50
NT 2121 £4.50
TP 2134 £11.80
TP 2139 £11.80 *
NT 2139 £4.50
TP 2205 £11.80
TP 2216 £11.80
NT 2218 £4.50
TP 2234 £11.80
TP 2240 £12.80 *
NT 2239 £4.50
TP 2303 £11.80
TP 2335 £14.90
TP 2340 £12.80
TP 0008 £14.90

*TransPennine Express stopping service

The walk-on single fare for these services is £21.90 (or £17.40 for Northern Only). Even if one were only going one-way, on a relatively quiet train at one of the least busy times of the week, you would not be making a great saving from committing yourself to any of those TransPennine Express trains. Of course as with most routes, the walk-on single fare is a rip-off, and the return fare at £22 is the more likely comparison. As you can see, every single Advance ticket TransPennine Express are selling (on the quietest trains) is more than half of the cost of a return - making it near certain that a return ticket will be cheaper. A period return is only £1.40 more than a day return, so even if one were staying overnight, one would almost certainly find a return ticket cheaper than a pair of Advance tickets.

This is what @yorkie was talking about. These TransPennine Express Advance tickets are a rip off. There are only very limited circumstances where someone would actually be better off buying one. TPE are doing very little to encourage people to travel at quieter times. The Off Peak tickets in question do not have afternoon restrictions, so it is far more likely that people will just travel whenever they want, rather than waiting for these post-peak trains which have a few empty seats.

Northern have sensibly identified that trains leaving Leeds at 9pm Tuesday will have a low load factor, and reacted accordingly to this by cutting prices. Hopefully this demonstrates my above point as to why I usually end up giving them my business now.

Those cheap fares are available for pretty much every Northern train from Leeds to Vic - I think the cheapest I've seen is £2.30 with my railcard just one day before.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Those cheap fares are available for pretty much every Northern train from Leeds to Vic - I think the cheapest I've seen is £2.30 with my railcard just one day before.

Sounds about right as I've paid £3.80 each way so knock a third off that...

 

[Jamesrob637]

Here's some sample pricing for Leeds to Manchester next Tuesday night, 16 July. It is admittedly July but will mostly not be during the school holidays, and there's no obvious evidence of a large event in Leeds.

TP 1939 £13.90 *
NT 1939 £4.50
TP 1950 £11.80
TP 2007 £13.90
TP 2018 £11.80
NT 2018 £4.50
NT 2021 £4.50
TP 2034 £11.80
TP 2039 £13.90 *
NT 2039 £4.50
TP 2105 £11.80
NT 2118 £4.50
NT 2121 £4.50
TP 2134 £11.80
TP 2139 £11.80 *
NT 2139 £4.50
TP 2205 £11.80
TP 2216 £11.80
NT 2218 £4.50
TP 2234 £11.80
TP 2240 £12.80 *
NT 2239 £4.50
TP 2303 £11.80
TP 2335 £14.90
TP 2340 £12.80
TP 0008 £14.90

*TransPennine Express stopping service (incl. Mossley, Stalybridge)

The walk-on single fare for these services is £21.90 (or £17.40 for Northern Only). Even if one were only going one-way, on a relatively quiet train at one of the least busy times of the week, you would not be making a great saving from committing yourself to any of those TransPennine Express trains. Of course as with most routes, the walk-on single fare is a rip-off, and the return fare at £22 is the more likely comparison. As you can see, every single Advance ticket TransPennine Express are selling (on the quietest trains) is more than half of the cost of a return - making it near certain that a return ticket will be cheaper. A period return is only £1.40 more than a day return, so even if one were staying overnight, one would almost certainly find a return ticket cheaper than a pair of Advance tickets.

This is what @yorkie was talking about. These TransPennine Express Advance tickets are a rip off. There are only very limited circumstances where someone would actually be better off buying one. TPE are doing very little to encourage people to travel at quieter times. The Off Peak tickets in question do not have afternoon restrictions, so it is far more likely that people will just travel whenever they want, rather than waiting for these post-peak trains which have a few empty seats.

Northern have sensibly identified that trains leaving Leeds at 9pm Tuesday will have a low load factor, and reacted accordingly to this by cutting prices. Hopefully this demonstrates my above point as to why I usually end up giving them my business now.

It's also noteworthy that in May 2018, TPE significantly expanded their number of evening departures from Leeds to Manchester. There used to be a 2141, 2209, 2241, 2309, 2335 and that was it. Look at it now!

Nope definitely not school hols. Most schools I know (of) don't even break up next Fri - they go somewhat into the following week even if only until Tuesday.

 

[yorksrob]

Though the fact was that the TPE 158s were not carrying fresh air, and so there were issues from day one.

My very first trip on a 185 was overcrowded.

It's not the route that is particularly lacking in capacity, - especially whilst three-car trains are running packed-out. If the Manchester, Huddersfield, Leeds and York platforms were accommodating trains on TPS services at their maximum length then those trains would not be so overcrowded.

Good points that I don't disagree with.

 

[wellhouse]

The are undermining the ticket revenue of VTWC and EMT- that is literally what they are doing. I’m not necessarily saying it’s a negative thing. It’s a manifestation of competition.

I'm not sure 'undermining' is an appropriate description when DFT, in its infinite wisdom, has seen fit to award multiple franchises the opportunity to compete for traffic on certain flows. Advances aren't the only examples of aggressive/competitive pricing either; TPE 'are undermining the ticket revenue' of LNER and XC on the ECML with operator-specific Super Off-Peak fares.