TPE Scotland/Bolton/Manchester. How to stop commuters boarding?

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by Howardh, 12 Jun 2019.

  1. Howardh

    Howardh Established Member

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    *Not sure which section so I'll drop it in here*
    https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/new...n-again-but-commuters-will-not-be-allowed-on/

    Presumably there will be no timetabled departure and signs will say "This train should not be boarded" or something?

    So when these trains call at Bolton to drop off, how can passengers be prevented from joining? If they got on, with a BON/MAN ticket, unless it's a specific advance then what can a guard/conductor do?

    I suppose they can state BON>MAN tickets "not valid on this service" but how would they cope with Manchester Wayfarers etc? And those ticketed to the airport but simply alight at Piccadilly and disappear?

    As one of the commenters mentioned,
    Are TPE trying to create more problems than they are trying to solve? Are there any other examples in the country? In the 90's the then TOC running Airport/Piccadilly/Bolton/Preston in the wee small hours (0120 ish) said it was set down only at Piccadilly - but many like myself got on at Picc so eventually they decided it was a pointless restriction.
     
    Last edited: 12 Jun 2019
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  3. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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    In reverse, Reading commuters join trains at Paddington which are "pick up" only at Reading knowing it will stop anyway. This leaves long distance passengers standing as far as Reading
     
    Last edited: 12 Jun 2019
  4. LeeLivery

    LeeLivery Established Member

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    People aren't officially allowed on Norwich - Liverpool St services from Stratford. Lots of people, including myself have jumped on anyway. Unless they strictly enforce it, it won't work.
     
  5. Howardh

    Howardh Established Member

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    What's the situation with long-distance trains going to/coming from Euston stopping at Watford to drop off/pick up only?
     
  6. Howardh

    Howardh Established Member

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    One asks why have that rule in the first place if it's virtually unenforceable?

    Think the only way round it is to have dedicated platforms where pax can's access to board, which is pretty well impractical.
     
  7. PR1Berske

    PR1Berske Established Member

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    The only things which spring to mind:

    *Not displaying the service on departure boards
    *On-, platform checks or restrictions of some kind
    *Immediate on-board ticket checks

    All three of which seem very impractical.
     
  8. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Although they are shown as set down only in the timetable, and they won't wait for people and you cannot get a travel itinerary on them, I would dispute that boarding these trains is in any way 'unofficial' given that they are displayed on departure boards on the platform as available trains to London Liverpool Street!
     
  9. Sprinter153

    Sprinter153 Member

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    Knowing FirstGroup's track record with 'new rules' (cf: GWR mandatory cycle reservations) it will be drummed into staff that they have to enforce it and have no discretion, until such a point that someone gets assaulted for not allowing someone to travel, at which point the managers responsible will say "but you should have known not to bother enforcing it!"
     
  10. AngusH

    AngusH Member

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    A not entirely serious thought:

    Single door open and the guard standing next to it inspecting tickets as people board?
    After first allowing all the people getting off the train to exit through the same door.

    Probably could work, but horrible for the schedule.
     
  11. LeeLivery

    LeeLivery Established Member

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    I thought they'd stopped showing them on the boards. I haven't done it in years. It is a weird one.

    It's probably so if people start complaining about overcrowding they can blame passengers who shouldn't be onboard.
     
  12. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    It isn't going to be much of an issue towards Manchester, realistically. Away from Manchester what you do is occasionally put on an additional service calling at Bolton and miss the Bolton stop so they have to go to Preston and back for their trouble. GWR actually have done this in the past (years ago) :)

    Generally speaking not showing it on the PIS plus the risk of being shouted at is enough to ensure most people won't try. The odd one might, but it'll still manage any overcrowding.
     
  13. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    There is only 1tph of this now, but staff have always been very big on enforcing it. If you try, expect the guard to see you and the train will not depart until you are found (or they give up). I remember once staff going through a train to find someone who had boarded (they were shouting about it as they did), they kept quiet and got away with it.

    Going the other way the Euston barrier staff will not let you through with a ticket to Watford.
     
  14. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    #1 (not showing it on boards) is usual practice in a number of places and is not in any way impractical.

    Talking of Stockport this used to be so that trains could leave early towards Manchester (pretty sure it was advertised in the other direction). I did it lots of times with full staff knowledge on a few occasions (I used to ask when the next VT was) and it was not enforced at all.

    In the much tighter VHF timetable there is not enough slack for arrivals at Stockport to be very early, and VT like flogging their own dedicated tickets anyway.
     
  15. AndrewE

    AndrewE Established Member

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    Isn't something like the 0530 Glasgow to Manchester one of the most overcrowded trains in the country (from Bolton into Manchester)? There is a need for "Set-down only" stops on trains like this - and the other side of the coin, "U" stops to prevent long-distance passengers being unable to board because the space has been taken by commuters.
    Admittedly the "S" stop isn't quite so important, but it does allow long-distance travellers to pack up and use the loos in preparation for their arrival.
     
  16. td97

    td97 Member

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    One problem is it's basically a turn up and go frequency from Bolton. Many people just get on the next train from platform 1/3, knowing full well it will take them to Manchester.
    I thought an idea mooted was to path a Northern service immediately in front of the TPE to soak up commuters.
    Another way would be the introduction of Northern only tickets on the route, with clear announcements that these are not valid on TPE.
    And why should it be that Bolton passengers are not allowed to use a service to the Airport if it's set-down only at Bolton, when for example Preston-Manchester and Lancaster-Preston journeys are permitted and are of a similar distance?
     
  17. Howardh

    Howardh Established Member

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    Thought is if a 80% empty long distance train stops at Bolton at 8am and won't allow anyone to alight, the hundreds of commuters on the platform will be well chuffed.... Perhaps trains won't stop at all @ Bolton (at least at certain times) so why bother routing them that way, unless Chorley commuters will be allowed to board if it stops there?
     
  18. Howardh

    Howardh Established Member

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    If it only goes to Piccadilly then it won't be much use to Deansgate or Victoria commuters, who will take trains directly there instead, thus the TPE "overcrowding" would be reduced a little. Some bound for Oxford Road may well use it and walk back to their destination I suppose.
     
  19. AndrewE

    AndrewE Established Member

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    They should be allowed to use the service. There used to be restrictions abroad saying (in this context) "Only stops to set down, also picks up passengers for Manchester Airport."
     
  20. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    It might well be, but that's only unpleasant - it isn't going to stop anyone getting to Scotland.

    This is much less of a concern, as I say, than people being left behind, particularly now station toilet use is no longer chargeable. (As an aside, I wonder if TOCs were part of the reason NR made this change - they must surely now be emptying tanks far less often as people will now go before boarding/after alighting. I've certainly noticed the Euston bogs being a lot busier than they were).
     
  21. PR1Berske

    PR1Berske Established Member

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    That might well do a good job, although it would introduce at Bolton a different culture to what they are used to. As said above, Bolton is very "turn up and go". You'd have to introduce checks to ensure that only TPE tickets were being used. That puts pressure on staff and passengers.
     
  22. td97

    td97 Member

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    I guess the platform announcements would only state Manchester Airport. Regulars would soon catch on that it does in fact stop at Piccadilly, especially with the on-board PIS stating that too.
     
  23. Howardh

    Howardh Established Member

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    200 of whom could get off at Piccadilly anyway (!) but would the barriers @ PICC allow a BON>MIA ticket through though? Can they claim "break of journey" on a BON>MIA ticket?
     
  24. PR1Berske

    PR1Berske Established Member

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    That's not a very British way of doing rail travel, literally! I'm much more European in attitude to some on here, as I don't believe that "walk up and go" travel is sacred, and I can see how such restrictions on boarding could work. However Bolton station is not designed for holding passengers back to check their ticket validity much beyond the entrance. "No boarding except for Manchester Airport" could work if attitudes shift and staffing levels make it feasible.
     
  25. Howardh

    Howardh Established Member

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    Yes, for someone not used to the situation it can be very unsettling wondering which trains you are allowed on, as happened to me when I got to Preston with a "Northern Only" day ticket. Funnily enough, I was at Bolton with such a ticket and a TPE diesel turned up for my scheduled Northern service. I legged it to the guard to ask if my ticket was valid, he replied "of course it is, this is a Northern Train even though it's a TPE Train......it had been leased out for the day by TPE!!
    So yes, it's a solution but....
     
  26. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Yes, of course they can, provided the ticket does not bar it. They can even come back and finish the journey later if they so choose.
     
  27. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    You really don't need to get that complex. Just show "Manchester Airport only" on the PIS, though this would take some jiggery-pokery as there isn't a regular u/s restriction you can use to do this without barring set-down at Piccadilly which might negate the main purpose :)
     
  28. Howardh

    Howardh Established Member

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    Thanks, I often have to change going to the airport as that allows me to pop out to Gregg's for a pasty!
     
  29. Howardh

    Howardh Established Member

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    To start with until they twig. The concerns are with the early-hours commuters who do the trip daily, it won't take them long to work out a get-around! During the day when there's many fewer pax - not letting on a literal handful would be pretty miserable of TPE.
     
  30. geoffk

    geoffk Member

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    Will this just apply to Bolton, or will local travel between Oxford Road/Piccadilly and the Airport also be barred? Presumably a Manchester - Bolton ticket would not be valid in these circumstances and you could be excessed to/from Preston.

    I can see the point in having a "no setting down" restriction on evening peak departures from Manchester but not one for boarding. Does Northern provide enough seats on their own trains for Bolton commuters, as I heard that crowding was still a problem.
     
  31. Glenn1969

    Glenn1969 Member

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    Will these trains actually show on the departure screens heading North if they are set down only at Bolton heading South?
     

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