Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
However many are needed - which, if people are getting on other trains in numbers, is not enough
You're missing people using ICs for prestige reasons...
However many are needed - which, if people are getting on other trains in numbers, is not enough
Of course, the solution could be for there to be sufficient trains Bolton to Manchester to make this a marginal choice...just a thought
I suspect that this is probably not that far from the truth, for the reasons you suggest.I think that southbound "set down only" stops at Bolton are probably unworkable.
(emphases mine)Going northbound, some but not all services will call at Bolton to pick up only, depending on what time of day it is. Bolton won't be shown on screens or announced. The NRE app does not show calls to pick up only at later stations. The only way people will know if the train calls at Bolton or not is to consult the paper timetable, where they will see the 'u' restriction. People who just turn up and get on the train without doing so will quickly be burnt when they get on a train that does not stop at Bolton. If you have a ticket to Bolton you may legitimately be asked to buy a new ticket from where you got on to Preston, especially if you end up actually having to go there (in which case you will also need to pay to get back). This is crucial, because if trains carried Manchester to Bolton passengers, they would risk leaving passengers going beyond Bolton behind.
Going southbound, the train may or may not be advertised on screens at Bolton, but probably the latter. Some people will get off the train at Bolton going southbound. If the train goes unadvertised, most people won't get on because they won't know where it is going. Among those who do, which will be few, there is really no reason not to just allow people on in this case, as there will be at least some space to be re-occupied. There may be quite a bit of standing space that people waiting at Bolton might be able to occupy. There is no risk, in this direction, of long-distance passengers who don't have an alternative train being left behind. There is a potential benefit to allowing standing space to be occupied by Bolton to Manchester passengers in this direction, as it will relieve pressure on the busy trains on other routes. There is also no genuine ticket related implication in this direction - a Bolton to Manchester ticket being used on a Bolton to Manchester train is not going to qualify for a Byelaw offence, or a prosecution for attempting to avoid payment. Staff at Bolton station might try to usher people away from the trains to prevent them from boarding, although this is relatively unlikely. The train is also very likely to depart as soon as it is ready, and won't need to wait for booked time.
Just because, using a Bolton to Manchester ticket on a Bolton to Manchester train, I just don't see how there could be an offence committed. Perhaps others would think there's evidence of that, and of course my view could be completely wrong, but this is my instinct.(emphases mine)
Why do you say there is a difference between these situations?
What about changing the routing on Bolton-Manchester tickets to ‘NOT TPE’, which means that (assuming TPE care) anyone on the train is easily going against the rules.
Not suggesting there is, but if TPE don't want people travelling Bolton-Manchester on their trains, and as they will get no revenue from those passengers, then it is an effective way of banning people from the TPE service and making it really easy to make them pay to Preston.Because there is no good reason to do this outside the peaks nor in the opposite direction to the peak flow?
That would be OK for Anytime tickets including seasons as presumably, there isn't an issue off-peak. The lack of any advances offered would fix that flow.Not suggesting there is, but if TPE don't want people travelling Bolton-Manchester on their trains, and as they will get no revenue from those passengers, then it is an effective way of banning people from the TPE service and making it really easy to make them pay to Preston.
Offering cheaper "northern only" tickets or only offering season tickets for Northern services is probably the best way of enforcing this.
Other than that, I don't think making things significantly worse for passengers, especially commuters, in a time where passenger trust and useage of rail in the north is on a downward trend is a perticularly good idea.
I don't understand your second paragraph at all.Just because, using a Bolton to Manchester ticket on a Bolton to Manchester train, I just don't see how there could be an offence committed. Perhaps others would think there's evidence of that, and of course my view could be completely wrong, but this is my instinct.
Going the other way, it is clearer what might be being done wrong - there may be an intention to travel beyond the destination on the ticket, and to have underpaid for the journey logically being made, which is Manchester to Preston (or somewhere beyond). Certainly I can see why the train company might think themselves within their rights to charge for a new ticket in that situation. I can't see how they could justifiably charge for new tickets if somebody got on the train at Bolton with a valid ticket from Bolton, even if the train had actually been set down only.
I think the reality is the likelihood of anything happening other than possibly being asked not to do it again is quite low.
I don't.Using a Manchester to Bolton ticket on a Manchester to Bolton train, what offence do you propose is committed?
If you have a ticket to Bolton you may legitimately be asked to buy a new ticket from where you got on to Preston, especially if you end up actually having to go there (in which case you will also need to pay to get back).
What is wrong with making southbound morning peak TPE services (arriving in Manchester between 08.00 and 09.00 hours) non stop from Preston and northbound evening peak trains (leaving Manchester between 17.00 and 18.00 hours) non stop to Preston from Manchester Oxford Road. If non stop paths are not available via Euxton Junction - are paths available via either Atherton and/or the L&M via Eccles. Is a blanket stop policy desirable/necessary. Bearing in mind the glaring holes in the previous TSR - is the Bolton stop in the peaks a bridge too far?
What is wrong with making southbound morning peak TPE services (arriving in Manchester between 08.00 and 09.00 hours) non stop from Preston and northbound evening peak trains (leaving Manchester between 17.00 and 18.00 hours) non stop to Preston from Manchester Oxford Road.
Have you actually been reading the thread?What is wrong with making southbound morning peak TPE services (arriving in Manchester between 08.00 and 09.00 hours) non stop from Preston and northbound evening peak trains (leaving Manchester between 17.00 and 18.00 hours) non stop to Preston from Manchester Oxford Road. If non stop paths are not available via Euxton Junction - are paths available via either Atherton and/or the L&M via Eccles. Is a blanket stop policy desirable/necessary. Bearing in mind the glaring holes in the previous TSR - is the Bolton stop in the peaks a bridge too far?
There are all of the current services, for a kick off.Off the top of my head, are there sufficient alternative services for people wanting to travel between Bolton and Preston?
How is it similar? In one case, you cannot have possibly come from Preston, and legitimately may not even be aware of the restriction. In the other case, you are almost by definition aware, and it could easily be argued you intend to go to Preston.Why is this different to getting on at Bolton and being asked to buy a new ticket from Preston to Manchester? (let's ignore someone actually going to Preston, that's very clearly a different matter)
There are all of the current services, for a kick off.
Which current services are proposed to stop calling at Bolton?Well, there wouldn't be if some of the current services stopped calling at Bolton, would there? Hence the reference to alternative services.
Which current services are proposed to stop calling at Bolton?
These services already are, and will remain, non stop at Bolton. See TPE Scotland/Bolton/Manchester. How to stop commuters boarding? (Post #175 of this thread).What is wrong with making southbound morning peak TPE services (arriving in Manchester between 08.00 and 09.00 hours) non stop from Preston and northbound evening peak trains (leaving Manchester between 17.00 and 18.00 hours) non stop to Preston from Manchester Oxford Road.
Where did mwmbwls say that???mwmbwls asked if it there was any reason why some Manchester to Preston services could not be altered to stop calling at Bolton