TPE services allocated for Double units

[Killingworth]

Apart from 06:26 Cleethorpes to Airport never manages to be 6 more than 3 out of 5 days a week, 2 being more the norm since the second 185 usually finds itself further north subbing for an absent 397 or Nova 3?!

I smell a rat...

Be specific, in the week commencing 23rd February which days was it short formed?

Apparently there were over 60 short formed services on North Pennine and Scottish routes last week, very much worse.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Be specific, in the week commencing 23rd February which days was it short formed?

Apparently there were over 60 short formed services on North Pennine and Scottish routes last week, very much worse.

At least Wednesday and Thursday last week. Friday it was delayed. Monday and Tuesday I can't search anymore but I dimly recall posting something about it being an irony if it had been 6 on Friday given it had barely managed the rest of the week to be 6.

 

[naverag]

From memory it was 6 on Monday 24th but 3 on Tuesday 25th.

3/3 so far this week, though!

 

[Jamesrob637]

From memory it was 6 on Monday 24th but 3 on Tuesday 25th.

3/3 so far this week, though!

I've been on the other shift at work so far this week but I'll see it tomorrow provided roughly on time. Let's hope for 4/4 then 5/5!

 

[Jamesrob637]

06:26 Cleethorpes to Airport has actually managed 6 again today!

Question is... 4/4 this week as it might be, were all 6 coaches in use each day?!

 

[naverag]

06:26 Cleethorpes to Airport has actually managed 6 again today!

Question is... 4/4 this week as it might be, were all 6 coaches in use each day?!

Yes. I've not actually experienced the rear set being locked out of use for a while (commuting mostly on the 0808 from Sheffield and the 1818 from Man Pic). There was a week or two in January where it happened several times in quick succession but since then it's either been 6 cars in use or an actual short form.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Yes. I've not actually experienced the rear set being locked out of use for a while (commuting mostly on the 0808 from Sheffield and the 1818 from Man Pic). There was a week or two in January where it happened several times in quick succession but since then it's either been 6 cars in use or an actual short form.

Great, thanks. We rely on you i.e. the travelling public to update us. 2 more 397s (the North West to Scotland workings) should be coming into service from Monday so the need for 185s to cover should diminish as a result and 6-car working be more common/guaranteed.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Anybody know whether 06:26 Cleethorpes to Airport managed a perfect 5/5 this week? With 2 more 397s due to enter traffic from Monday I'd like to see 4/5 or 5/5 most weeks from now.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Found on a Facebook page on 11th December, intended 6 car trains from December timetable change. Many were postponed but most are now running? It seems more services should also be becoming 6 car.

"In an email received by FoDaTS today TPE say “things have not been where we would have liked them to have been in recent weeks and we unreservedly apologise for any disruption that has been faced.”

They have advised us that they are planning to run a lot more 6 carriage trains on their South Pennine services from Sunday 15th December, with more to be introduced during 2020. Please understand they're doing their best to introduce a lot of brand new trains very quickly so things may slip from the plan, but what follows looks to be a big improvement.

“The list of the six carriage TransPennine Express services on your route from 15 December 2019.
A few gaps here and there, but these will be completed as more 185s are released as we enter 2020. Plan is to operate six carriages to/from Piccadilly and then detach/connect three carriages there (due to other services not all six carriage trains can fit into Manchester Airport). Customers for the Airport will be advised/supported.
Hopefully during 2020/21 we can get a few more to stop at Dore & Totley.”

We're sure the majority of long suffering users would put reliability of existing services ahead of more stops, welcome though they'd be. Firstly that the service actually runs, secondly that it runs to time, and finally that it has enough seats for all. Frankly, we can't easily see how all three can be achieved and leave much time for extra stops, but a 9.14 westbound would be nice. The following list is NOT the full service, just the ones TPE intend to run with 6 coaches. Please check the timetable for precise timings and updates for any late changes.

Monday to Friday
0505 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
0536 Doncaster Manchester Airport
0626 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
0729 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1226 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1326 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1426 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1526 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1626 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
2026 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
0554 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
0653 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
0753 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
0853 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
0953 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1453 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1553 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1653 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1753 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1953 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
2153 Manchester Airport Doncaster

Saturday
0536 Doncaster Manchester Airport
0626 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
0729 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
0826 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
0926 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1026 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1126 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1226 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1326 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1426 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1526 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1626 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1826 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1926 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
2026 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
0554 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
0653 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
0753 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
0853 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
0953 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1053 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1153 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1253 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1353 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1453 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1553 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1653 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1753 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1853 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1953 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
2153 Manchester Airport Doncaster

Sunday
1026 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1126 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1226 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1326 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1426 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1526 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1626 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1726 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1826 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
1926 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
2026 Cleethorpes Manchester Airport
2116 Cleethorpes Sheffield
0956 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1055 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1156 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1356 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1456 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1556 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1656 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1756 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1856 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
1956 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
2055 Manchester Airport Cleethorpes
2156 Manchester Airport Doncaster

FoDaTS, based on information from TPE, 11.12.2019"

07:53 Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes is on Journey Check today as "Will be formed of 6 coaches instead of 3 from Manchester Piccadilly."

But it's booked 6-car on Saturdays anyway??

 

[Jamesrob637]

Does the fact that this thread has gone quiet mean that most if not all booked doubles have been doubles? I have only seen 06:26 Cleethorpes to Airport two days this week (yesterday and today) due to annual leave, however it has managed 6 both of those and all carriages appeared to be in use. Nothing on Journey Check as I speak but I still don't take that as gospel.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Can see a few booked double diagrams going down to singles from next week if not from tomorrow. If TPE even maintain the frequency...

 

[Killingworth]

Can see a few booked double diagrams going down to singles from next week if not from tomorrow. If TPE even maintain the frequency...

There were 4 short forms on South Pennine last week.

A Pacer could cover with space to spare now! It isn't sensible to run double units on virtually any service until things have returned to a semblance of normality. I doubt that will be much before Christmas, if then for many services. Let's hope that by 2021 we'll have an effective vaccine in sufficient quantity to get it under control.

 

[RHolmes]

Can see a few booked double diagrams going down to singles from next week if not from tomorrow. If TPE even maintain the frequency...

Very likely, the double sets currently require a conductor and an assist which during a period where many staff are already self-isolating and will be looking after their dependents and own children with schools closing as of next week, there simply won’t be the same level of staff to man the units in 6 carriage formation.

Emergency timetables are set to come into place next week, with talk of some hourly routes operating two hourly

Also of note TPE conductors on the 185’s are currently relieved from ticket selling and checking duties and should be self-isolating in the cab for door operation only.

 

[MDB1images]

Also of note TPE conductors on the 185’s are currently relieved from ticket selling and checking duties and should be self-isolating in the cab for door operation only.

I believe East Midlands and Scotrail staff have been told that as part of government policy on reducing unnecessary contact but not in officially at TPE as yet...

 

[RHolmes]

I believe East Midlands and Scotrail staff have been told that as part of government policy on reducing unnecessary contact but not in officially at TPE as yet...

It’s definitely the advice from depot managers.

 

[MDB1images]

It’s definitely the advice from depot managers.

Hopefully come in for all depots by end of week.

In terms of 6 cars, on local TV it stated Merseyrail and Metrolink are running less services but longer trains/trams to reduce crowding risk so may still see some 6 cars although if it means 2 conds needed for any method of work like you say I'd not expect it to happen.

 

[RHolmes]

Hopefully come in for all depots by end of week.

In terms of 6 cars, on local TV it stated Merseyrail and Metrolink are running less services but longer trains/trams to reduce crowding risk so may still see some 6 cars although if it means 2 conds needed for any method of work like you say I'd not expect it to happen.

6 cars would be okay on the north Express routes currently operated by the Nova fleet but the south routes and stoppers still require two conductors until the selective door equipment goes live in May following testing. It’s currently fitted to the 185 fleet on the routes required and ready to go but there’s been a few technical errors that need ironing out before it goes live.

 

[Killingworth]

6 cars would be okay on the north Express routes currently operated by the Nova fleet but the south routes and stoppers still require two conductors until the selective door equipment goes live in May following testing. It’s currently fitted to the 185 fleet on the routes required and ready to go but there’s been a few technical errors that need ironing out before it goes live.

I suspect we won't need 6 coach trains before 2021, if then, unless we get this virus quickly defeated. The acceptance of working from home and avoiding air travel is going to restrict demand for a long time.

 

[RHolmes]

There has been confirmation that no double sets will run next week. All units will be 3, 4 or 5 carriages on the emergency timetable

 

[Jamesrob637]

Let's hope for as many Novas out as possible so that at least what does run is as long as possible to allow distancing between passengers. Obviously South TPE doesn't have any Novas (yet) so people will have to make do with single 185s but hopefully these should be lightly-loaded. No football at weekends above League Two (the fourth tier) will help too.

 

[Jamesrob637]

There has been confirmation that no double sets will run next week. All units will be 3, 4 or 5 carriages on the emergency timetable

So will South TPE only be 3-car and 2-hourly?

 

[Greybeard33]

See post below from @_toommm_ on another thread for emergency timetable summary.

TPE from Monday are operating as follows (ONLY Monday to Saturday available so far):

SOUTH Transpennine (Piccadilly to Cleethorpes via Sheffield):
- Two-hourly service throughout the day.
- Starting at 08:19 from Piccadilly, then xx:18 until 22:20 (22:20 terminates at Doncaster, calls at Rotherham Central too)
- Starting at 05:36 from Doncaster and 06:26 from Cleethorpes, running at xx:26 from there until 20:26 (20:26 terminates at Sheffield)
- Dore and Totley served at 19:03 and 21:03 to Cleethorpes; 06:15 and 08:14 to the Airport. 19:03 to Cleethorpes, weirdly enough, misses out Habrough.

NORTH Transpennine EASTBOUND (Liverpool/Manchester Stations to Leeds/Hull/York/Newcastle/Edinburgh):
- NO departures from the Airport.
- Hourly from Lime Street, starting at 06:54, running at xx:54 until 19:54. Even-numbered hours to Newcastle, odd-numbered hours to Scarborough. All services calling at both Lea Green and Newton-le-Willows. 18:54 departure curtailed to York, 19:54 curtailed to Victoria.
- Hourly departure all stops from Manchester Piccadilly to Leeds (similar to the pre-May 2018 timetable), starting at 05:23, then xx:17 until 20:17. 05:23 runs through to Hull.
- Two-hourly shuttle from Leeds to Hull, first departing at 06:36 (originates at Piccadilly) then 08:34, 10:34, 12:34, 13:34, 15:24, 17:24 and 20:34. Does not allow a connection from Piccadilly stopper, so potentially a 56 minute wait for anyone needing it.
- Two services a day from York to Redcar Central at 05:05 and 17:39.
- Two services a day from Newcastle to Edinburgh at 10:18 and 14:18. Allows an 8-minute connection off the 06:54 ex. Lime Street (07:30 ex. Victoria, 08:27 ex. Leeds, 08:58 ex. York) and 10:54 ex. Lime Street (11:30 ex. Victoria, 12:27 ex. Leeds, 12:58 ex. York)

NORTH Transpennine WESTBOUND (Edinburgh/Newcastle/York/Hull/Leeds to Manchester Stations/Liverpool):
- Two-hourly service from Newcastle to Lime Street, starting at 07:00 then odd-numbered hours on the hour until 19:00 (19:00 terminates at York).
- Two-hourly service from Scarbourgh to Lime Street, starting at 06:34 then even-numbered hours at xx:34 until 18:34, final departure at 21:34.
- Hourly departure all stops from Leeds to Manchester Piccadilly (similar to the pre-May 2018 timetable) starting at 05:58 (Only calls at Dewsbury between Leeds and Huddersfield, then all stops to Piccadilly), then xx:47 until 19:47.
- Two-hourly shuttle from Hull to Leeds, first departing at 05:40 (runs through to Piccadilly all-stops) then 07:07, 09:08, 11:08, 12:08: 14:08, 16:08 and 19:08. Does not allow a connection to Piccadilly stopper, so potentially a 52 minute wait for anyone needing it.
- Two services a day from Redcar Central to York at 07:06 and 19:07.
- Two services a day from Edinburgh to Newcastle at 10:21 and 12:33. Connection Westbound is not as good as Eastbound at Newcastle onto the next TPE, mandating a 67 and 57-minute wait respectively.

West Coast Route (Liverpool/Manchester to Edinburgh/Glasgow Central (via Preston and Carlisle):
- Most services will start and terminate at Preston.
- Northbound, services will depart Preston two-hourly to Edinburgh, at 07:03, 09:04, 10:55, 13:03, 15:03, 17:04 and 19:05. All services call at Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie and Haymarket (set-down only at Haymarket). 07:03 and 09:04 departures will originate at the Airport at 06:07 and 08:07 respectively (06:26 and 08:26 departures from Piccadilly respectively). 06:07 also calls at Bolton to pick-up only.
- Northbound, two services per day to Glasgow Central. 06:48 starts at Carlisle, calling at Lockerbie, Carstairs and Motherwell; 17:26 starts at Piccadilly, calling at the usual West Coast stops (minus Carstairs).
- Southbound, services will depart Edinburgh two-hourly to Preston, at 08:12, 10:12, 14:12, 16:12, 18:12 and 20:11. All services call at Haymarket (pick-up only at Haymarket), Lockerbie, Carlisle, Penrith, Oxenholme and Lancaster. No direct services from Edinburgh to the Airport.
- Southbound commuter services at 06:28 to the Airport and 07:08 ex. Oxenholme to Piccadilly.
- Southbound, two services per day from Glasgow Central. 04:22 departure calling at Lockerbie and Carlisle only; 17:08 departure to Piccadilly calling at the usual West Coast stops, plus set-down only at Bolton.

 

[40C]

1B68 Man-Clee and 1B75 Clee-Man seen today and both were 6 car.

 

[Jamesrob637]

So South TPE are doing a Merseyrail and halving frequencies but deploying longer trains?

 

[Killingworth]

So South TPE are doing a Merseyrail and halving frequencies but deploying longer trains?

Certainly seemed to be 6 coach trains today, although they were working towards that before the crisis so running 2 hourly instead of hourly should make that fairly easy.

 

[tpjm]

The current timetable is designed specifically to enable those who must complete essential journeys to do so. It's a balancing act between ensuring adequate capacity to allow customers to socially distance themselves and also not require huge numbers of train crew, this should improve the reliability and resilience should crew get sick. The situation is constantly under review to ensure that the capacity level is right, not too much and not too little...

With that in mind, the current (note that this may change at short-notice) planned stock allocations are as follows:

Liverpool - Scarborough: Nova 3 (2x) and 6-car Class 185 (2x)
Liverpool - Newcastle: all Class 802
Newcastle - Edinburgh*: all Class 802
Leeds - Manchester stopper: all 6-car Class 185
Leeds - Hull: all 3-car Class 185
York - Redcar*: 3-car Class 185
North West Anglo-Scot: all Class 397 operated
South Route: all 6-car Class 185, excluding 1 or 2 early morning/late night

*very low frequency

 

[Jamesrob637]

The current timetable is designed specifically to enable those who must complete essential journeys to do so. It's a balancing act between ensuring adequate capacity to allow customers to socially distance themselves and also not require huge numbers of train crew, this should improve the reliability and resilience should crew get sick. The situation is constantly under review to ensure that the capacity level is right, not too much and not too little...

With that in mind, the current (note that this may change at short-notice) planned stock allocations are as follows:

Liverpool - Scarborough: Nova 3 (2x) and 6-car Class 185 (2x)
Liverpool - Newcastle: all Class 802
Newcastle - Edinburgh*: all Class 802
Leeds - Manchester stopper: all 6-car Class 185
Leeds - Hull: all 3-car Class 185
York - Redcar*: 3-car Class 185
North West Anglo-Scot: all Class 397 operated
South Route: all 6-car Class 185, excluding 1 or 2 early morning/late night

*very low frequency

That sounds very sensible. Maybe Hull will go 6-car if need increases. Now, if only TPE could adjust their website to allow refunds FOC irrespective of whether we have collected our tickets or not...

 

[Mex I can]

The Cleethorpes/Piccadilly/Cleethorpes were all 3 car today. Luckily the 6 passengers had no trouble with social distancing between Cleethorpes and Sheffield. I did wonder if there were any problems from Sheffield onwards.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The Cleethorpes/Piccadilly/Cleethorpes were all 3 car today. Luckily the 6 passengers had no trouble with social distancing between Cleethorpes and Sheffield. I did wonder if there were any problems from Sheffield onwards.

Snap. Just seen 18:26 Cleethorpes to Manchester - 3-car.

Nothing on Journey Check though

 

[johnnychips]

The Cleethorpes/Piccadilly/Cleethorpes were all 3 car today. Luckily the 6 passengers had no trouble with social distancing between Cleethorpes and Sheffield. I did wonder if there were any problems from Sheffield onwards.

There were three people on Sheffield station at 1930 when I returned from my daily walk. I doubt it would have been busy.