TPE to increase fares in May by abolishing some Off Peak Day Returns

[wellhouse]

It has just been announced by the guard that with the Timetable change, Cycle Reservations will become compulsory.

Unclear whether this applies just to Scarborough/Liverpool, TPE North, or all TPE services.

I have also heard that Off Peak Day Return fares are to be withdrawn between West Yorkshire and Manchester.

 

[Merseysider]

I have also heard that Off Peak Day Return fares are to be withdrawn between West Yorkshire and Manchester.

Can’t confirm either way but it wouldn’t surprise me.

TPE have been increasingly aggressive on revenue over the last year or so.

 

[nr758123]

Never underestimate the ability of the Huddersfield Examiner to get their facts wrong. But then you already knew that.

The National Rail journey planner shows off-peak day returns between Slaithwaite & Manchester, and between Huddersfield and Manchester, continuing to be available after the timetable change. Not sure if there’s a point later in the year where TPE can withdraw off-peak day returns.

It’s correct that TPE are proposing that cycle reservations will be compulsory, certainly in respect of the semi-fasts serving stations west of Huddersfield.

 

[Smidster]

Can’t confirm either way but it wouldn’t surprise me.

TPE have been increasingly aggressive on revenue over the last year or so.

TPE being anti-consumer? who would have thought it?

Forgive my ignorance but what would they be hoping to achieve with that decision? Hopefully it would give a boost to the alternative coach transport between Leeds and Manchester.

 

[D6700]

As most will appreciate, withdrawal of cheaper ticket categories raises the cost of travel without increasing headline fares, so is far less likely to attract negative media attention. This is much the same as adding time restrictions. Sometimes, such effective fares rises are absolutely massive.

Similarly, at the back end of last year, I could often get TPE Advance tickets from York to Manchester Airport for £9.30 each way. Now, the minimum is £12.90. That's a hidden 39% fares rise. There is a theoretical £10.90 fare, which is "only" a 17% rise, but I can't find any - not even overnight, miles in advance...

 

[Starmill]

Given that TransPennine already got rid of Anytime Day Returns between West Yorkshire and Manchester, if they delete the Off Peak Day Return, only period returns will be available

 

[Starmill]

Network Rail’s journey planner shows off-peak day returns between Slaithwaite & Manchester, and between Huddersfield and Manchester, continuing to be available after the timetable change. Not sure if there’s a point later in the year where TP

I guess you mean National Rail Enquiries?
The National Fares Manual release dates (and supplementary releases on live data) don't particularly correspond to the Principle Change Date / Subsidiary Change Date used for Network Rail / timetable purposes.

 

[Starmill]

Sometimes, such effective fares rises are absolutely massive.

Absolutely. The cost of many rail journeys has more than doubled within 3 years in Greater Manchester, despite the fact that rail is the least frequent and historically the cheapest mode of public transport. A train ticket for one adult now often costs a comparable amount to parking in the city centre, something which would have been unheard of a few years ago.

 

[nr758123]

I guess you mean National Rail Enquiries?

Yes. Corrected it, thanks.

 

[SteveyBee131]

...TPE have been increasingly aggressive on revenue over the last year or so.

Sadly I don't travel day in day out, but on occasion I have reason to catch train 1B86, the 16:55 Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes. On weekdays this is a 6 carriage formation and on the times I've caught it, after Sheffield all the guard does is lock/unlock the appropriate doors for the short platforms as well as usual station procedures.

 

[Merseysider]

Sadly I don't travel day in day out, but on occasion I have reason to catch train 1B86, the 16:55 Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes. On weekdays this is a 6 carriage formation and on the times I've caught it, after Sheffield all the guard does is lock/unlock the appropriate doors for the short platforms as well as usual station procedures.

I was talking in more general terms; IE competing on price with Northern on the Liverpool - Manchester corridor, heavily restricting Off Peak fares, raising Advance fare prices where there aren’t any competitors, etc.

 

[yorkie]

The National Rail journey planner shows off-peak day returns between Slaithwaite & Manchester, and between Huddersfield and Manchester, continuing to be available after the timetable change. Not sure if there’s a point later in the year where TPE can withdraw off-peak day returns.

They are not in retail systems yet.

Here is a comparison for the flow Q472 (which includes both 'Slowit' and 'Uddersfield) to Q235 (which includes Manchester Stns), Routed Any Permitted, showing current (until 19th May 2018) vs future (from 20th May 2018) fares:

SDS currently £13.60 increases 20p to £13.80
CDR currently £14.20 abolished
SVR currently £14.70 unchanged (regulated fare; they'd increase it if they could!)
FDS currently £19.60 increases 70p £20.30
SOR currently £20.30 unchanged
FOR currently £39.20 increases £1.40 £40.60
7DS currently £64.30 unchanged
​

Current fares can be seen here: http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=HUD&dest=0438

 

[Tetchytyke]

There is a theoretical £10.90 fare, which is "only" a 17% rise, but I can't find any - not even overnight, miles in advance..

Do they advertise at that fare? A complaint to the ASA may yield results...

 

[Starmill]

Do they advertise at that fare? A complaint to the ASA may yield results...

'Results' is a word which here means taking down some posters at the time they were planning to take them down anyway.

 

[D6700]

Do they advertise at that fare? A complaint to the ASA may yield results...

I don't know. I was looking to book such a journey and was surprised by how much the fare had gone up in such a short space of time. I took a quick look at the BR Fares website and spotted the lower fare, so gave them the benefit of doubt - and tried looking further out and at more obscure times, when availability of the lowest tier of fares is normally good - but couldn't find any at all.

Interestingly, looking at the full list of fare tiers on that flow, some unlucky passengers could now end up paying more for an Advance Return than an Anytime Return - yet still get bound by the strict restrictions and potential penalties that come with buying the (not) cheaper ticket!

 

[Starmill]

They are not in retail systems yet.

Here is a comparison for the flow Q472 (which includes both 'Slowit' and 'Uddersfield) to Q235 (which includes Manchester Stns), Routed Any Permitted, showing current (until 19th May 2018) vs future (from 20th May 2018):

SDS currently £13.60 increases 20p to £13.80
CDR currently £14.20 abolished
SVR currently £14.70 unchanged (regulated fare; they'd increase it if they could!)
FDS currently £19.60 increases 70p £20.30
SOR currently £20.30 unchanged
FOR currently £39.20 increases £1.40 £40.60
7DS currently £64.30 unchanged
​

Current fares can be seen here: http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=HUD&dest=0438

So Huddersfield to Manchester joins the club of very short journeys where most everyone coming home the same day will be forced to pay extra for a ticket valid for a month. See also: Derby to Birmingham, Birmingham to Cheltenham, Wrexham to Manchester, Colwyn Bay to Chester, Northallerton to Doncaster...


One of the industry's favourite tricks to pull the wool over customers' eyes and apply huge increases through the back door.

 

[Clip]

I don't know. I was looking to book such a journey and was surprised by how much the fare had gone up in such a short space of time. I took a quick look at the BR Fares website and spotted the lower fare, so gave them the benefit of doubt - and tried looking further out and at more obscure times, when availability of the lowest tier of fares is normally good - but couldn't find any at all.

Interestingly, looking at the full list of fare tiers on that flow, some unlucky passengers could now end up paying more for an Advance Return than an Anytime Return - yet still get bound by the strict restrictions and potential penalties that come with buying the (not) cheaper ticket!

Isnt the problem with the advance fares at this time in that the timetable is preventing them from being able to provide them at T-12 as they just dont know yet?

 

[Starmill]

Interestingly, looking at the full list of fare tiers on that flow, some unlucky passengers could now end up paying more for an Advance Return than an Anytime Return - yet still get bound by the strict restrictions and potential penalties that come with buying the (not) cheaper ticket!

Another common trick to try to rip you off. Wolverhampton to Crewe is awful for that, a walk up single is £18.80 but there are often Advance tickets available at more than that.

 

[yorkie]

Forgive my ignorance but what would they be hoping to achieve with that decision? Hopefully it would give a boost to the alternative coach transport between Leeds and Manchester.

The intention is to increase revenue; they know that a very small number of people will go to using buses/coaches, however most people will pay more. They do not mind if they lose market share, as growth of the market continues, and if growth doesn't continue the DfT will prop them up, so they can't really lose!

Isnt the problem with the advance fares at this time in that the timetable is preventing them from being able to provide them at T-12 as they just dont know yet?

No. D6700 was saying the lowest priced tiers are not available, and he is correct.

 

[Clip]

apologies i had misread it then

 

[nr758123]

They are not in retail systems yet.

Here is a comparison for the flow Q472 (which includes both 'Slowit' and 'Uddersfield) to Q235 (which includes Manchester Stns), Routed Any Permitted, showing current (until 19th May 2018) vs future (from 20th May 2018) fares:

SDS currently £13.60 increases 20p to £13.80
CDR currently £14.20 abolished
SVR currently £14.70 unchanged (regulated fare; they'd increase it if they could!)
FDS currently £19.60 increases 70p £20.30
SOR currently £20.30 unchanged
FOR currently £39.20 increases £1.40 £40.60
7DS currently £64.30 unchanged
​

I apologise for not having contemplated the possibility that the Examiner might have got their facts right. In my defence, it's not something that happens very often.​

 

[TUC]

Another common trick to try to rip you off. Wolverhampton to Crewe is awful for that, a walk up single is £18.80 but there are often Advance tickets available at more than that.

But surrly anyone searching for an Advance would find the walk up fare at the top of the list as a cheaper fare?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that TransPennine already got rid of Anytime Day Returns between West Yorkshire and Manchester, if they delete the Off Peak Day Return, only period returns will be available

The effect of which might just be people noticing that if they buy two in opposite directions they may get themselves a season ticket of random length?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another common trick to try to rip you off. Wolverhampton to Crewe is awful for that, a walk up single is £18.80 but there are often Advance tickets available at more than that.

How utterly bizarre. Why would one ever be sold? It wouldn't show as the cheapest single or return.

 

[johntea]

Quite amusing really when it isn't as if the services from Manchester to West Yorkshire knock off at 10pm, you can technically get home the 'same day' right through until 4am with it being the airport route!

 

[yorkie]

But surrly anyone searching for an Advance would find the walk up fare at the top of the list as a cheaper fare?

It depends on the booking site.

Some allow you to buy 2 x single fares with no warning that a return is cheaper than the sum of the two singles. There was a thread about this the other day.

 

[D6700]

But surrly anyone searching for an Advance would find the walk up fare at the top of the list as a cheaper fare?

How utterly bizarre. Why would one ever be sold? It wouldn't show as the cheapest single or return.

Whilst flexible tickets may be cheaper, they are not always the most prominent fare on screen. Not all websites display results in the same way and the myriad of fares, along with singles versus returns, can makes things very difficult for people to follow, especially those who don't travel often.

Some people only look for Advance tickets because they have been conditioned by the industry into believing that is how they'll get the best price, so may not notice that they are paying more for less.

At work, I was once supplied with an Advance ticket outbound and a full price single coming back, at greater expense than a flexible return. The person who booked it was absolutely adamant they had booked the cheapest option, even though they hadn't.

Linking back to the non-TPE example given by Starmill, currently, an attempt to make a booking for this Thursday from Crewe to Wolverhampton using the 11:22 outbound in standard class is £35.90 for an Advance *Single* - nearly twice the price of an Off Peak *Return* and almost as much as an Anytime *Return*. Coming back on the 22:15, if choosing First Class, the Advance *Single* is £68.00 - which is actually more expensive than a First Open *Return*. Anyone daft enough to select that combination would end up paying £103.90 for a highly restricted mixed class return, at far greater expense than any flexible ticket. If they miss their train, they may also be forced to buy one of those cheaper tickets!

I've been shouted down for this in the past, but I do not believe Advance tickets should ever be available for the same price or higher than the relevant valid flexible ticket. That should also include the sum of the parts. i.e. An Advance each way may be cheaper than a flexible single each way, but shouldn't be sold if the combined cost is higher than the relevant flexible return. I understand some websites will warn you in such circumstances, but others don't.

 

[BlueFox]

Some people only look for Advance tickets because they have been conditioned by the industry into believing that is how they'll get the best price, so may not notice that they are paying more for less.

Several months ago Mrs Bluefox travelled from Carlisle to Preston and back for work.
She was given advance tickets on TPE services, that cost more than the TPE off peak day return that she could have used instead.
When I explained that she could have got a flexible return ticket for less money, she said they're bought via an agency, and the agency says they get advance tickets because they come with a seat reservation...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've been shouted down for this in the past, but I do not believe Advance tickets should ever be available for the same price or higher than the relevant valid flexible ticket. That should also include the sum of the parts. i.e. An Advance each way may be cheaper than a flexible single each way, but shouldn't be sold if the combined cost is higher than the relevant flexible return. I understand some websites will warn you in such circumstances, but others don't.

There are edge cases where this may make sense. For instance, if you feel you are likely to have to change the *day* of outward travel, Advances bought via XC (so no change fee) may make more sense than an off peak return.

Similarly, an Advance priced at say 80% of the off peak return may seem a rip-off but isn't if you are only making a single journey (at least until we get proper single leg pricing).

 

[Tetchytyke]

Results' is a word which here means taking down some posters at the time they were planning to take them down anyway.

I was more thinking that Megabus had to say exactly how many fares at that tier were available. I'm equally skeptical that some of these lowest price advance tiers actually exist.