TPE to increase fares in May by abolishing some Off Peak Day Returns

[bb21]

4tph on even headway is fairly widely accepted by the general public as "turn up and go". It is quite common for people in the South East to turn up randomly on routes with such a frequency. It is however quite important that these services are evenly spaced out.

"Official" definitions that I have come across vary between 4 and 6tph on even headway. First Buses, for example, used 5tph as the benchmark when they first rolled out their "Metro" network without advertising the timetable in the early 2000s.

It looks as if going ahead the DfT will use 8tph as the benchmark on the rail network.

 

[Clip]

It's very unlikely that anyone would use the stopping train from end to end if they had a ticket valid for the fast train, so really it's only 5tph.

You cant just take one train out of the equation because its a stopper.

 

[IanXC]

This is all to common with Corporate Central Purchasing - Percy in Procurement is told that he'll be getting a deal but in reality hes lazy and wants the simplified admin of a monthly statement not lots of T & S claims. The agency is also lazy and wants to do things as quickly as possible so just bangs out the first fares the computer gives without doing any leg work and most employees have an attitude that the company is paying.

My ex colleagues from Welsh Government come in buy from me or more often than not collect TOD's. I see some right horror story's from Evolvi Corporate

Much to my amusement at a previous employer the policy when attending training courses was that you would be expected to be on time for your outward departure, but as courses often finished early you should always have the option of travelling home as soon as you were finished on the course (there were no overtime implications).

The corporate travel booking agent took this as the reason to remove *all* Off Peak tickets from the journey planner, so without fail, you finished up with an Advance for the outward and an Anytime single for the return. You just could not make it up.

 

[johntea]

When I first started going on training courses at work I would do my very best to find the cheapest tickets and hotels, but then we got a procurement officer who started to book everything, to be fair it saved me the hassle of having to claim my travel expenses back! (Always amused me how the finance policy stated no alcohol with meals, but they could hardly deny me under a tenner for a Wetherspoons meal with a drink!)

I used to go on some really interesting training courses, not so much the courses but the venues! Once at Old Trafford including a free tour of the grounds, Microsoft HQ in Reading and my favourite a training company at a posh house in the middle of Bristol countryside with 5 night residential and massive home cooked 3 course meal chucked in each night!

Sadly my last courses in 2011 were in the much less interesting surroundings of Leeds City College and I’ve had zero training opportunities at my new job, never mind eh!

 

[BurtonM]

TPE have really fobbed me off with mandatory cycle reservations.
I work for Deliveroo while I'm taking a break from my university studies, and live in Stalybridge. Like hell am I getting two cycle reservations every day.
It was stupid that they put folding seats in the cycle space, and just defies common sense that the arguably better suited and more spacious wheelchair space is not permitted for cycle storage in any circumstance, even if not needed by someone less able.
I'm now effectively restricted to Northern services, but I don't care as I don't want to give First the custom, and for the most part Northern trains have better bike storage (LM 150s and FGW Pacers excepted).
I'm lucky really that Northern also operate out of Stalybridge, and further to that as TPE are lumbered with the stops between here and Huddersfield now, all the Northern services will be quiet as they start here!

 

[Merseysider]

and further to that as TPE are lumbered with the stops between here and Huddersfield

Yes, I noticed that. Intercity passengers will be paying more for a worse service.

They’re also picking up stops at Lea Green and Newton le Willows. Will Transpennine be removing the ‘Express’ suffix from their name?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Much to my amusement at a previous employer the policy when attending training courses was that you would be expected to be on time for your outward departure, but as courses often finished early you should always have the option of travelling home as soon as you were finished on the course (there were no overtime implications).

The corporate travel booking agent took this as the reason to remove *all* Off Peak tickets from the journey planner, so without fail, you finished up with an Advance for the outward and an Anytime single for the return. You just could not make it up.

One suspects the corporate world spends more than it should into tens of £ Millions on rail fares each year.

 

[Starmill]

just defies common sense that the arguably better suited and more spacious wheelchair space is not permitted for cycle storage in any circumstance, even if not needed by someone less able.

Does it? If you put your bike there on a full and standing train, and someone then joins who needs to use the wheelchair space, which they have priority for, where are you going to move your bike to? You may end up being stranded at a random station because your bike can no longer be the carried, which is worse than not being able to board. Legally it's difficult for TransPennine to allow that space to be used for a bike while turning away a customer in a wheelchair.

 

[Starmill]

I'm now effectively restricted to Northern services

Cycle reservations can be made up until the departure of the train (or 10 minutes before in the case of some systems), subject to capacity. You can do this at the ticket office or by calling telesales. There is no charge.

You could also try storing your bike in the hub thing in Manchester city center from time to time?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cycle reservations can be made up until the departure of the train (or 10 minutes before in the case of some systems), subject to capacity. You can do this at the ticket office or by calling telesales. There is no charge.

They could do with having a means of obtaining them online for all TOCs, even if a fee was necessary. Also from online TVMs.

I think they're a good idea as bike space is a very limited resource and would support them being used on all TOCs, even the likes of Merseyrail. They are just a bit awkward to get.

 

[Gareth Marston]

4tph on even headway is fairly widely accepted by the general public as "turn up and go". It is quite common for people in the South East to turn up randomly on routes with such a frequency. It is however quite important that these services are evenly spaced out.

"Official" definitions that I have come across vary between 4 and 6tph on even headway. First Buses, for example, used 5tph as the benchmark when they first rolled out their "Metro" network without advertising the timetable in the early 2000s.

It looks as if going ahead the DfT will use 8tph as the benchmark on the rail network.

Has anyone told the Welsh Government that there 4 tph to the Head of the Valleys South Wales Metro plan is now not compliant with turn and up and go?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Ridiculous commercial decision getting rid of CDRs for SVRs that are barely more expensive if yorkie's given example is anything to go by. Makes no sense however you look at it.

If they do what ATW did, the SVR will have restriction 8A which bans break of journey.
Wipes out splitting at a stroke.

 

[Starmill]

If they do what ATW did, the SVR will have restriction 8A which bans break of journey.
Wipes out splitting at a stroke.

The new TransPennine 'T' restriction codes do not ban break of journey. I hardly think they will go and change them all again, having just written these new ones.

Will the Off Peak Day Returns from Manchester to Scarborough, Malton, Selby or Doncaster survive?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they do what ATW did, the SVR will have restriction 8A which bans break of journey.
Wipes out splitting at a stroke.

Erm, it has no effect whatsoever on splitting. It technically blocks starting short though enforcement is patchy[1]. It doesn't in practice block stopping short nor same day break of journey, because there can be no effective penalty for doing so - if stopped at a barrier you simply return to the platform and complete the journey as ticketed. Only with an Advance ticket (where leaving the train renders it invalid) can there be any such enforcement in a practical sense.

[1] MKC ticket office will happily sell you "no BoJ" tickets from Bletchley for northbound travel and the barrier staff will happily accept them, for instance.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This is very difficult to believe. Manchester / Airport to Wigan or Preston to Wigan passengers on Transpennine trains have been encouraged to choose those trains over all others because they are the cheapest.

Wigan already gets 2tph VT to Scotland.
TPE will be introducing Wigan stops on the new Liverpool-Glasgow services when they start next year (3tpd).
The Manchester services are to revert to the Bolton route when the wiring is finally finished.
Missing out Wigan is part of the plan to keep the same Bolton schedule north of Preston.
The replacement Northern service will eventually go to Cumbria (Barrow/Windermere).

 

[Starmill]

Wigan already gets 2tph VT to Scotland.
TPE will be introducing Wigan stops on the new Liverpool-Glasgow services when they start next year (3tpd).
The Manchester services are to revert to the Bolton route when the wiring is finally finished.
Missing out Wigan is part of the plan to keep the same Bolton schedule north of Preston.
The replacement Northern service will eventually go to Cumbria (Barrow/Windermere).

What does any of that have to do with what I said? I already know all of that. The claim, from someone who purports to be a TransPennine insider, is that the removal of Wigan passengers is something that will be 'very welcome' because it means that at present too many people use those trains. I was pointing out that there is no way this could be 'welcome' or that TransPennine really believe that too many people use those trains, because they have created a financial incentive for people to use those trains with a huge range of dedicated fares. Specifically Preston to Wigan and back, Manchester to Wigan, Wigan to Manchester Airport and any journey made using their dedicated season ticket. If TransPennine didn't want as many Wigan passengers on their trains, they would not have incentivised them to catch their trains rather than VT or NT services by making them cheaper.

The person I was responding to does not even seem to know that those fares exist.

 

[BurtonM]

Cycle reservations can be made up until the departure of the train (or 10 minutes before in the case of some systems), subject to capacity. You can do this at the ticket office or by calling telesales. There is no charge.

You could also try storing your bike in the hub thing in Manchester city center from time to time?

Yes but as I said it's an inconvenience as I don't always know what train I'll be getting. Also the Manchester cycle hubs are on a subscription basis, not always accessible, and mostly at least partially exposed to the elements - I'd rather not use them. Bike being 10 miles away from my house is a pain too.

 

[BurtonM]

Yes, I noticed that. Intercity passengers will be paying more for a worse service.

There won't be many long distance travellers on those services, it'll be hop on/hop off all the way as people switch about trains for intermediate stops, or go to the nearest interchange with a fast service. The stoppers are Piccadilly-Hull and Piccadilly-Leeds. They're basically feeder/commuter services. (I hope the 185 refurb is hard wearing!)

The intercity passengers will be on dedicated services that are fast from Manchester to Huddersfield (the Liverpool-Scarborough and Manchester-Newcastle trains). I think at least part of the reason TPE are taking up the commuter stops on Man-Hud is reliability and consistency, Northern struggled to keep time on Manchester-Huddersfield, and generally got in TPE's way a bit.

 

[Starmill]

I have never heard anyone describe Manchester to Hull as a local service before, but if that is your view then fair enough...

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I have never heard anyone describe Manchester to Hull as a local service before, but if that is your view then fair enough...

In fairness, of the current TPE services via Leeds, the Hull route is the one with the least cross-Leeds traffic. There is a far greater and more noticeable changeover of passengers at Leeds on those trains. This is not to say that people don't travel across Leeds, but there is a far greater turn over of passengers at Leeds on those services compared to the other routes, especially Monday to Friday.

 

[BurtonM]

I have never heard anyone describe Manchester to Hull as a local service before, but if that is your view then fair enough...

Between Manchester and Huddersfield they're basically fulfilling that function, giving the stations on that line the 1tph Northern did, albeit in a slightly ham fisted manner so as not to overly disrupt the fast services. Past Leeds I can't really say, but over here TPE are certainly having to do that.
The way those services work and the places they do and don't serve certainly lend themselves to feeding people into the faster trains at large interchanges - NRE will promote this too as the timetable seems to have been designed with that in mind (also so if you're travelling to stations between Hud and Stalybridge and need to double back [there will be Routing Guide exceptions for this as there are journeys like Marsden-Mossley where it is now impossible not to double back], you only have to wait a few minutes).
Northern currently run a Manchester-Leeds stopper via Huddersfield as a peak hours service, TPE are just doing it hourly. Either way it's pretty much a semifast.

 

[Crossover]

Much to my amusement at a previous employer the policy when attending training courses was that you would be expected to be on time for your outward departure, but as courses often finished early you should always have the option of travelling home as soon as you were finished on the course (there were no overtime implications).

The corporate travel booking agent took this as the reason to remove *all* Off Peak tickets from the journey planner, so without fail, you finished up with an Advance for the outward and an Anytime single for the return. You just could not make it up.

I guess I should be thankful that on the (fairly rare) occasion I have cause to travel by train for work, I am left to my own devices rather than being foisted such bizarre tickets that would cost more!

 

[Starmill]

In fairness, of the current TPE services via Leeds, the Hull route is the one with the least cross-Leeds traffic. There is a far greater and more noticeable changeover of passengers at Leeds on those trains. This is not to say that people don't travel across Leeds, but there is a far greater turn over of passengers at Leeds on those services compared to the other routes, especially Monday to Friday.

I am sure that this is completely true. Of course, that does not change the fact that prior to May 2014, Hull services ran just as fast between Manchester and Leeds as Newcastle services. This is the point I was making. I won't comment on whether the downgrading for journeys like Selby to Manchester (potentially 6 minutes slower from the new timetable) is justified or not.

 

[Starmill]

Between Manchester and Huddersfield they're basically fulfilling that function, giving the stations on that line the 1tph Northern did, albeit in a slightly ham fisted manner so as not to overly disrupt the fast services.

This is a bit of a bizarre way of looking at it. The new timetable actually offers fewer fast services between Leeds and Manchester (4tph vs 5tph now) in addition to removing the stopping service. The changes really are more about trying to make the service more reliable - the overall quantum of paths is the same as now, 6tph, with a 7th between Heaton Lodge and Leeds.

 

[nr758123]

(also so if you're travelling to stations between Hud and Stalybridge and need to double back [there will be Routing Guide exceptions for this as there are journeys like Marsden-Mossley where it is now impossible not to double back], you only have to wait a few minutes).

TPE requested several easements for doubling back. All approved (Marsden-SWT via HUD, GNF-Mossley via SYB, GNF-SWT and Marsden-Mossley via either HUD or SYB) but as of last Friday (13th) only half of them had been added to the routeing guide. Expected that the other half will be corrected in time for the timetable change.

 

[IanXC]

I think at least part of the reason TPE are taking up the commuter stops on Man-Hud is reliability and consistency, Northern struggled to keep time on Manchester-Huddersfield, and generally got in TPE's way a bit.

Due (to a significant degree) to being held for late running TPE services. TPE will now of course have to decide which of their services to delay for which.

Northern currently run a Manchester-Leeds stopper via Huddersfield as a peak hours service, TPE are just doing it hourly. Either way it's pretty much a semifast.

There is currently an hourly Northern stopping service between Manchester Victoria and Huddersfield (with peak time extras), and an hourly Huddersfield and Leeds. TPE are operating the two stoppers effectively as one of their semi fast services, the peak time Northern extras remain but operate to Piccadilly.

 

[transplanted]

One suspects the corporate world spends more than it should into tens of £ Millions on rail fares each year.

when i was living in the north-west - if you needed to go to london, even if in some weeks in the future, the company i worked for just got you anytime returns. hundreds and hundreds down the drain (or cross-subsidising, if you prefer..)

 

[trainophile]

I must admit when I was admin support for a team of sales managers, on the rare occasions they needed to travel by train I probably did the same. I seem to remember we had to buy tickets through a call centre in Glasgow, and I could never understand them when they gabbled off the T&Cs. I dreaded that task, was always sure I would mess it up. Luckily 99.99% of the time they went everywhere in their company cars.

I suppose lots of office employees are in the same situation, clueless about the tickets available because they never use trains themselves, as I didn't in those days, and anyway it was pre-Internet so no real way of learning for yourself.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I must admit when I was admin support for a team of sales managers, on the rare occasions they needed to travel by train I probably did the same. I seem to remember we had to buy tickets through a call centre in Glasgow, and I could never understand them when they gabbled off the T&Cs. I dreaded that task, was always sure I would mess it up. Luckily 99.99% of the time they went everywhere in their company cars.

I suppose lots of office employees are in the same situation, clueless about the tickets available because they never use trains themselves, as I didn't in those days, and anyway it was pre-Internet so no real way of learning for yourself.

Like this bloke who had the Internet! https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...fe-hacker-overspends-tom-church-a8302521.html

 

[trainophile]

Oh I saw that linked to on Twitter, and the comments seemed to be that he still had the car (not sure I would trust at £200 banger very far though!), and that if there were four or five of them they would save a bundle. Anyway he got his 15 minutes of fame, which was probably the main objective .