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TPE to increase fares in May by abolishing some Off Peak Day Returns

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Solent&Wessex

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Was it perhaps I1?

From memory the Huddersfield to Manchester code has changed twice in recent years. It was originally, IIRC, one of the xM codes - not valid on trains arriving in Manchester before a certain time. Then it changed to a Not valid to depart on trains before a certain time code, then it changed again to add in the restriction on the return leg.

On the most recent change I don't think the time changed, merely that the return time restriction was added. The plus point, if I remember, was that the start time was clarified as 0430, which meant retail systems would then allow SVR tickets to be purchased for the overnight trains from Yorkshire to the airport.
 

Starmill

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Will the Off Peak Day Returns from Manchester to Scarborough, Malton, Selby or Doncaster survive?
So for those making Day Return journeys after 19th May, travelling from 0930:

Manchester - Leeds
CDR £21.60 - withdrawn
SVR £22.70 - no change
effective price rise 5.1%

Manchester - Malton
CDR £41.10 - withdrawn
SVR £43.60 - no change
effective price rise 6%

Manchester - Scarborough
CDR £53.20 - increases to £55.80
SVR £58.90 - no change
effective price rise 4.9%

Manchester - Thirsk
CDR £44.00 - increases to £46.20
SVR £49.30 - no change
effective price rise 5%

Manchester - Selby
CDR £29.80 - withdrawn
SVR £31.10 - no change
effective price rise 4.4%

Manchester - Sheffield
CDR £20.50 - withdrawn
SVR £22.40 - no change
effective price rise 9.3% (!!)

Manchester - Doncaster rte Sheffield
CDR £21.30 - withdrawn
SVR - £22.20 - no change
effective price rise 4.2%

Manchester - Liverpool
CDR £13.70 - increases to £14.30
SVR £15.70 - no change
effective price rise 4.4%

Leeds - York
CDR £14.60 - increases to £15.30
SVR £18.70 - no change
effective price rise 4.8%

Leeds - Scarborough
CDR £29.90 - withdrawn
SVR £32.00 - no change
effective price rise 7%

Leeds - Hull
CDR £23.50 - withdrawn
SVR £24.30 - no change
effective price rise 3.4%

Leeds - Liverpool
CDR £34.10 - withdrawn
SVR £35.70 - no change
effective price rise 4.7%

Sheffield - Scunthorpe
CDR £16.80 - increases to £17.60
SVR £20.20 - no change
effective price rise 4.8%

Some gross price rises, sneaked out when people don't expect them and right after a significant round of increases just 4 months ago. The increase is outrageous in the case of Manchester to Sheffield!
 
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mikeg

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Some really unjustifiable fare increases from Thirsk:

Thirsk-York: CDR goes up from £12.10 to £12.70 despite the CDR NTR-YRK going up by only 10p to a tenner! This is the fourth increase in half as many years and is frankly outrageous!
Thirsk-Selby: SOR goes up from £30.90 to £31.50. Until a year or so ago you wouldn't have needed to buy this ticket anyway as the SVR used to carry restriction 8A.
Thirsk to Malton - See above.
Thirsk to Scarborough: See above re restrictions:The SOR goes up by a pound, I doubt anyone would pay that much anyway and the flow could really use some day return, which I am sure would result in more money not less being netted as leisure travellers would pick the train. Incidentally until I got my season ticket I wouldn't consider a day trip to Scarborough and would generally go to Whitby instead.
Tihrsk to Leeds CDR: Abolished!! The SOR also goes up to £31.10 from £30.50. They couldn't have increased it much further to be fair, it's been creeping up above inflation since before the new franchise. As the YRK-LDS fare has also gone up so much and I hold a season from THI-YRK I'm going to get the CityZap from now on. I do prefer the train but they've priced me off it. Well done TPE.

Fortunately for those who don't check prices online we have very good ticket office staff at Thirsk who are willing to help people navigate some of the more absurd fares. They have however been told not to offer the NTR - YRK TPE only ticket unless it's asked for. This led to one woman getting rather angry when she was sold a THI-YRK CDR for the existing price and then someone came up behind her and asked for the NTR-YRK ticket. I feel for the staff at Thirsk, I really do as there are so many rip-off fares from here.
 

lyndhurst25

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What a rip off! Especially Manchester to Sheffield. Passengers making this journey would be advised to split tickets at Grindleford, using reasonable Northern priced tickets. If the train doesn't call there then use a combination of a CDR and a GM Wayfarer. It's a win-win situation: passenger saves money and rip-off merchants TransPennineExcess are punished by loosing fare income to Northern and GMPTE.
 

yorksrob

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Just goes to show what a grasping and untrustworthy TOC TPE are (which is why we always knew they'd get the franchise renewal).

Now that CDR's are being withdrawn on shorter routes than those that retain them, it exposes the lie that a lack of a CDR relates to the 'ability' to make a day trip for that destination.

The hideously extortionate Leeds - York fares march ever upward.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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If the responsible people at TPE are reading (and I'm sure they are) - this may be in line with what the government wants (ever reduced railway subsidy), but it drives those people who don't know about cheaper alternative tickets off the railway entirely and disenfranchises them from using it.

Those who continue to use the railway will in many cases avoid these new increases by being suggested alternative tickets by knowledgeable ticket offices or friends. And for those who really understand 'creative ticketing', these entirely unjustified rises mean 'war'!

I will certainly try to screw TPE out of the largest amount possible, not only in terms of cheaper tickets to the conventional options, but also in terms of selecting specific origins and destinations which mean that TPE receives the lowest possible ORCATS share - even if this means that Northern, who I otherwise do not like, get a larger share!
 

Starmill

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The hideously extortionate Leeds - York fares march ever upward.
This has got to be one of the worst value for money fares in the region. It's crazily expensive - and it's almost impossible to get a seat.
 

lyndhurst25

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Doncaster - Cleethorpes (a classic day-trip if ever there was one)
CDR - £21.90 - withdrawn
SVR - £23.80 - no change
effective price increase 8.7%

After a few minutes of searching, I can get back this down to a more reasonable £21.20 by using split tickets priced by other TOCs. Maybe that can be bettered?

Now, if someone were to make a sticky thread, listing all the draconian TPE stealth price increases and the possible ways to overcome them (importantly using only tickets that TPE couldn't easily get the price or routeing changed) then I'm sure that forum members could use their collective knowledge to find the best deals for the travelling public and at the same time deny greedy TPE of revenue. It could even be cross posted on websites like moneysavingexpert.com. Perhaps then TPE would think again what they are doing. Just an idea...
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Doncaster - Cleethorpes (a classic day-trip if ever there was one)
CDR - £21.90 - withdrawn
SVR - £23.80 - no change
effective price increase 8.7%

After a few minutes of searching, I can get back this down to a more reasonable £21.20 by using split tickets priced by other TOCs. Maybe that can be bettered?

Now, if someone were to make a sticky thread, listing all the draconian TPE stealth price increases and the possible ways to overcome them (importantly using only tickets that TPE couldn't easily get the price or routeing changed) then I'm sure that forum members could use their collective knowledge to find the best deals for the travelling public and at the same time deny greedy TPE of revenue. It could even be cross posted on websites like moneysavingexpert.com. Perhaps then TPE would think again what they are doing. Just an idea...

I don't think making such a thread is a useful exercise. The 'anomalies' they reveal will undoubtedly be closed down soon enough, just as many XC anomalies were closed back when TPE's current pricing manager was there. FoI requests reveal that most TOCs are very quick to approve changes of flow ownership or the routeing of flows when it comes from a 'more prestigious' or perhaps longer distance operator.
 

lyndhurst25

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I don't think making such a thread is a useful exercise. The 'anomalies' they reveal will undoubtedly be closed down soon enough, just as many XC anomalies were closed back when TPE's current pricing manager was there. FoI requests reveal that most TOCs are very quick to approve changes of flow ownership or the routeing of flows when it comes from a 'more prestigious' or perhaps longer distance operator.

That was my worry about the idea: working out which "anomalies" would be safe from TPE interference. Independent private companies colluding to fix prices: you'd have thought that there would be laws against that kind of thing!
 

ForTheLoveOf

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That was my worry about the idea: working out which "anomalies" would be safe from TPE interference. Independent private companies colluding to fix prices: you'd have thought that there would be laws against that kind of thing!
Well, they're not exactly colluding - the other companies simply wave it through, not minding, as, if anything, they get more revenue when tickets are "correctly" or more strictly routed.
 

yorkie

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That was my worry about the idea: working out which "anomalies" would be safe from TPE interference. Independent private companies colluding to fix prices: you'd have thought that there would be laws against that kind of thing!
It doesn't need collusion to get them shut down!

For years, Newcastle to Carlisle was valid via Leeds. People used to buy Marton to Wigton tickets to travel affordably on TPE. That got shut down without any need for collusion!

And the legendary Hatton to Droitwich fare (which was an eye opener at fares workshops) allowed people to travel via Reading, Southampton and Bristol for a cheap price until only a few months ago, but there really would have been no need for any collusion for that to come to an end.

There's an incredible value ticket (that is still going) between two stations in the Midlands which can be used to undercut XC and Virgin, but again if it was spotted by West Midlands Trains they would get it fixed without any need to be told to do so by the TOCs whose fares are being undercut.

Fare rises will always happen and most people will simply have to pay more. The likes of XC and TPE have been increasing fares at a higher rate than other TOCs for decades, that won't change. It does mean that people who buy a ticket for popular routes pay a lot more than people who pay for better value tickets priced by the likes of Northern. The gap will keep widening and accredited ticket splitting websites will offer even greater savings. Having a good knowledge of fares and the Routeing Guide is better than having a Railcard. I can easily save a third on many TPE journeys, sometimes getting it down to half price.

However we are drifting rather off-topic.
Just goes to show what a grasping and untrustworthy TOC TPE are (which is why we always knew they'd get the franchise renewal)....
A better way of wording that is: We always knew the DfT would make unreasonable fare demands of the franchise; the winning bid was only ever going to be one that agreed to continue to increase fares at a higher rate than customers would want. The risk here is that TPE staff reading this may think customers are blaming them when all they are really doing is what their bosses tell them to do, which in turn is what the DfT forced the franchise to do.

Have TPE acted in an untrustworthy manner? I think many of their fares are ludicrous but I am not sure it is untrustworthy to set fares at a high level in line with DfT requirements?

The high fares do not need to be paid by you anyway Rob; you should know by now that you just need to ask me at a forum meal and I will happily find a cheaper ticket for your journey :lol:
 

Starmill

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Have TPE acted in an untrustworthy manner? I think many of their fares are ludicrous but I am not sure it is untrustworthy to set fares at a high level in line with DfT requirements?
On the contrary. I think we can and do trust them to raise fares at a rate (like 9.3%) that is three, four or five times greater than the rate that we as customers would think of as acceptable. Arguably as the fares only went up four months ago the maximum fare rise at this point in time would be 0%. But of course, this is not how FirstGroup will act when they are given the incentive and the permission to increase prices by 9.3%. It is foreseeable. Although we do not have to like it.
 

yorksrob

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A better way of wording that is: We always knew the DfT would make unreasonable fare demands of the franchise; the winning bid was only ever going to be one that agreed to continue to increase fares at a higher rate than customers would want. The risk here is that TPE staff reading this may think customers are blaming them when all they are really doing is what their bosses tell them to do, which in turn is what the DfT forced the franchise to do.

Have TPE acted in an untrustworthy manner? I think many of their fares are ludicrous but I am not sure it is untrustworthy to set fares at a high level in line with DfT requirements?

The high fares do not need to be paid by you anyway Rob; you should know by now that you just need to ask me at a forum meal and I will happily find a cheaper ticket for your journey :lol:

Well, removing CDR's certainly seems to be an underhand stealth increase, so I would class that as untrustworthy.

I think its implicit in my observation that they won the franchise, that the DfT is ultimately to blame.
 

yorkie

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Some really unjustifiable fare increases from Thirsk:

Thirsk-York: CDR goes up from £12.10 to £12.70 despite the CDR NTR-YRK going up by only 10p to a tenner! This is the fourth increase in half as many years and is frankly outrageous!
There is no viable alternative to the train, and Grand Central do not operate many services. It could be higher than that and people would pay it. People need to make that journey. It would probably be higher except for the fact that it cannot be too costly due to the existence of Northallerton.
Thirsk-Selby: SOR goes up from £30.90 to £31.50. Until a year or so ago you wouldn't have needed to buy this ticket anyway as the SVR used to carry restriction 8A.
The DfT will be happy to read this; it demonstrates that TPE are pricing fares in line with their expectations for the franchise.

If you depart at 0801 from THirsk and return at 1804 (for example) accredited ticket splitting websites get the fare down to around £17; a saving of over £13, and better than a through fare with a Railcard.

However the DfT know that not many people use split ticketing websites, and hardly anyone (this forum being an exception) is going to look up loads of fares 'manually' to identify splits. So the through fare being over £30 is considered to be a good position because most people unwittingly pay over a tenner too much. If people did not overpay the DfT would need to increase subsidy, not only to cover the shortfall but also to pay for more carriages to cope with demand.
Thirsk to Malton - See above.
Even a combination of Anytime Day Returns valid on any operator with a simple split at York undercuts the through fare. That's how the DfT likes it; most people pay more. A few people do get to pay less but that doesn't make much of a difference.

That said, the savings are not amazing compared to Selby.
Thirsk to Scarborough: See above re restrictions:The SOR goes up by a pound, I doubt anyone would pay that much anyway and the flow could really use some day return, which I am sure would result in more money not less being netted as leisure travellers would pick the train. Incidentally until I got my season ticket I wouldn't consider a day trip to Scarborough and would generally go to Whitby instead.
Just don't buy a Whitby ticket from Thirsk! :lol:
Tihrsk to Leeds CDR: Abolished!! The SOR also goes up to £31.10 from £30.50. They couldn't have increased it much further to be fair, it's been creeping up above inflation since before the new franchise. As the YRK-LDS fare has also gone up so much and I hold a season from THI-YRK I'm going to get the CityZap from now on. I do prefer the train but they've priced me off it. Well done TPE.
DfT know most people will pay the higher fare for this journey. Hardly anyone will switch to the bus at York, so they are getting more money from all the other people paying more, and they won't mind at losing a small number of passengers. I agree that the DfT will be saying well done to TPE, and to be fair TPE have to make the promises the DfT requires or they won't retain the franchise.
Fortunately for those who don't check prices online we have very good ticket office staff at Thirsk who are willing to help people navigate some of the more absurd fares. They have however been told not to offer the NTR - YRK TPE only ticket unless it's asked for. This led to one woman getting rather angry when she was sold a THI-YRK CDR for the existing price and then someone came up behind her and asked for the NTR-YRK ticket. I feel for the staff at Thirsk, I really do as there are so many rip-off fares from here.
Thirsk to York is overpriced, however my worry is that TPE may feel that they cannot reduce it (despite Grand Central being cheaper than half price, and not much more than a THIRD of the price at peak times) to meet DfT expectations, so if they decide to avoid their staff being put in an awkward position the Northallerton "TPE Only" fare may increase.

If I lived in Thirsk I would try to get Grand Central, even if it meant travelling at less convenient times, even though I could afford the extra, as it is SO much cheaper and it's not nice to know you are overpaying. I suspect most people just cough up and pay the high fares though.
 
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Starmill

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If I lived in Thirsk I would try to get Grand Central, even if it meant travelling at less convenient times, even though I could afford the extra, as it is SO much cheaper and it's not nice to know you are overpaying. I suspect most people just cough up and pay the high fares though.
For a single journey from Thirsk into York at 0833, the customer pays an unbelievable £14.30. That is 210% higher than the fare if they catch the 0800!!!
 

LowLevel

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They're a bunch of clowns. As one of the traincrew at another TOC who will no doubt be a further victim of their pricing manager (some of their other dodgy ticketing practice cause me enough grief as it is) I think I shall indulge in some active advertising of this change via PA announcements including their social media contacts for feedback.
 

Starmill

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They're a bunch of clowns. As one of the traincrew at another TOC who will no doubt be a further victim of their pricing manager
Put it this way, there will be a lot more Sheffield to Stockport or Manchester SVRs sold now!
 
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