TPE WCML service changes from May 2019

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by absolutelymilk, 4 Jan 2019.

  1. absolutelymilk

    absolutelymilk Established Member

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    Great, is there somewhere this information is publicly available? What is the expected journey time between Liverpool and Preston?
     
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  3. jawr256

    jawr256 Member

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    Interestingly, the 0422 Glasgow Central - Manchester Airport, formerly having a reputation as the most-overcrowded train in the country when it used to call at Wigan, is shown to call at Bolton at 08:05 *without* a set-down only restriction (unlike all other southbound services). I'm interested to see if that ends up being amended.

    eg: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y00336/2019/06/26/advanced
     
    Last edited: 4 Jan 2019
  4. RAPC

    RAPC Member

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    Realtimetrains for details.

    46 minutes at quickest, almost an hour at longest. Preston to Liverpool has more padding in the timetable. Also, some services have stops at St Helens Central which impacts on time.
     
  5. absolutelymilk

    absolutelymilk Established Member

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    There has been discussion of the TPE WCML changes on the main "May 2019 timetable changes", but there are some important changes and I thought they deserved their own thread.

    In summary, there will be 3 tpd in each direction Liverpool-Scotland via Preston as well as 1tpd between Liverpool and Oxenholme (down)/Carlisle (up). This will sometimes call at St Helens Central.

    The Manchester-Scotland via Preston services will now run via Bolton, with pick up/set down stops at Bolton.

    Can anyone figure out how many diagrams this will require, i.e. does this rely on getting the 397s into service by May?
     
  6. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Did I read that right - an 0012 from Preston to Lancaster and Carlisle? That is quite a big improvement. 2203 is presently the last one past Lancaster other than the Sleeper (plus 2315 to Barrow).
     
  7. absolutelymilk

    absolutelymilk Established Member

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    That's correct, it's this one
    http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y02066/2019/06/25/advanced
     
  8. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    Correct. I did think that was a fairly significant improvement, for the reasons I've highlighted.
     
  9. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    At the moment the 0422 service is booked 8 coaches I think - can someone confirm? If it still is, I doubt very much that it is full because it currently runs non-stop from Preston to Manchester.

    To be honest, picking up at Bolton Manchester-bound is probably fine throughout the day. It won't exclude any long-distance passengers, who will already be onboard and sat down. I do not see any problem with Bolton to Manchester passengers choosing to board those services and stand. In the other direction, it is obviously quite important to separate them.
     
  10. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    1629 Glasgow Central to Liverpool Lime Street actually runs non-stop from Preston to Liverpool Lime Street too.
     
  11. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    I don't think the Manchester services require additional stock, but the new Liverpool services will need extra 2 units, so they are dependant on 397s starting.
    Or TPE will have to find a couple of 185s for this service until the 397s arrive.
     
  12. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    It seems that at least some of them are to just 100mph times too.
     
  13. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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  14. BMIFlyer

    BMIFlyer Member

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    If (big if) TPE can get 2 loco hauled sets into service for May 20 this would release the 2 185 units required for the Liverpool WCML workings.

    The class 350 workings to/ from Man Air are currently all single units due to collision damage to one set (and are in the system now reservation wise for only a 4 car service).

    The current plans sees the 0422 from Glasgow split at Carstairs with half continuing to MIA and the other bit running empty to Edinburgh for the first train south from there.

    If any spare units are available the 0422 becomes an 8 car from Preston to MIA only then splits there.
     
  15. cle

    cle Established Member

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    Nice to see these Liverpool services included... are they in addition to the Manchester hourly Scotland services?

    And is there scope, in time, to increase to an hourly Liverpool to Cumbria/Scotland? Would definitely help balance and sharpen some of the stopping patterns through the Wigan-Carlisle trunk...
     
  16. Mathew S

    Mathew S Established Member

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    Remember that, in theory, Northern should be starting an hourly Manchester - Barrow/Windermere which will increase capacity Wigan - Lancaster/Oxenholme (if not quite as far as Carlisle).
     
  17. notlob.divad

    notlob.divad Established Member

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    [rant]
    I have to say the calling pattern at St Helens Central does not impress. I had been led (/ led myself) to believe that all would stop there, particularly with it being such an infrequent service anyway.

    Where to start...

    Lets take the Sunday service first. Want a weekend in the Lake District, or Scotland. Get the last train back on a Sunday... Nice time leaving Glasgow not long before 7, - going through Lakes between 8 and 9 stopping at both Penrith and Oxenholme - 2112 leaving Lancaster. Lovely timed train for a weekend away. Nope doesn't stop at St Helens Central, passes through none stop. The only one on a Sunday that doesn't stop is arguably the most useful one.

    Early dart on a Friday, 1612 off Liverpool, that should be about right for a 6pm arrival in the Lakes for the weekend or an 8pm meal in Glasgow. No, don't worry you lot can just stay put. As you are stood on the platform at 1626 you will watch it fly straight past.

    So Business travel, after all that is what we are told makes the railway the big bucks. All those Expenses paid rail trips. How about a morning departure that gets you up to the Glasgow Office, or a change onto the Edinburgh office in time for a couple of Afternoon meetings. 0812 out of Liverpool, that should do nicely. Nope you guessed it another none stopper.
    Home the next day 1629 Departure from Glasgow. Oh perfect. No wait, not only does this one not stop, it doesn't even stop at Wigan to let you connect into the Local train.

    The 0731 weekdays towards Liverpool pre 0800 arrival, (will no doubt catch some of the morning commuters), but the other stops or lack of stops make it entirely pointless.

    So much for an improved service, and not being having a Northern Connect service, because TPE would be calling.

    [/rant] <(
     
  18. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Must admit I agree - a consistent stopping pattern has to be the way to go.
     
  19. absolutelymilk

    absolutelymilk Established Member

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    This service obviously has to fit in around existing services. I imagine one of the reasons for adding stops at St Helens at all might have been to slow it down enough for the paths to fit - conversely, a stop on on of the other services might have slowed it down enough to cause a conflict.

    AFAIK, St Helens was never promised any stops on this service at all, so while I sympathise that it's not what you might have hoped for, it's not fair to expect numerous services to Scotland from a station with only 1.3 million passengers per year, especially when there are easy connections at Wigan (for the Virgin services) and Preston (for the TPE Manchester Scotland services).
     
  20. notlob.divad

    notlob.divad Established Member

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    I refer you to the TSR tables here:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/transpennine-express-2016-rail-franchise-agreement
    In particular 4a-tsa3a main table

    Which at least implies that St. Helens Central will get the same service as Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle, and Glasgow Central. That being 3 trains in each direction between 7am and 7pm. The only exception being a note that says: "May call alternatively at St. Helens Junction" as far as I can tell none of the services stop at St. Helens Junction.

    As I have said before on this site, Station usage figures are a really poor indicator of potential market. They artificially inflate stations that already receive a good service whilst those that currently get a poor service are penalised.

    I thought the idea was we were trying to transform the North and re-energise the left behind ex-industrial heartlands.

    Ah that was all just political rhetoric. Now I understand..
     
  21. driver9000

    driver9000 Established Member

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    All 8 car working is cancelled until further notice since 350403 was stopped for repairs after its collision with Horses in November. However the 04:22 should leave Glasgow as an 8 coach train to Carstairs with the rear set empty. At Carstairs the rear set goes ECS to Edinburgh. There is a booked shunt to attach a unit which spends the night at Preston to 1M90 but with the ongoing shortage I don't think this has happened yet.
     
  22. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Therein lies the problem with microfleets. Only with the new stock, that'll be a whole diagram cancelled until repairs are completed. This does further the argument that TPE should have ordered only one type of stock - probably Class 80x for maximum flexibility.
     
  23. absolutelymilk

    absolutelymilk Established Member

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    There are 2 planned services towards Liverpool (12.32 and 20.28) and one service from Liverpool (07.32).

    St Helens has 3 tph in each direction currently and still only manages a relatively low usage. I think that suggests that it does not have a huge need for TPE (i.e. something in between regional express and intercity) services to stop there, rather than being a stop that can be included if there is time and it doesn't interfere with other services, especially when Liverpool-Preston is likely to be the busiest part of the route.
     
  24. MDB1images

    MDB1images Member

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    Could be a nightmare going via Bolton again after so long running express (with full loads)

    Presume the late Carlisle is a franchise commitment as currently the last Northbound 21:10 ex Airport is dead North of Preston/Lancaster (and the last Southbound 22:13 ex Edinburgh to Airport is dead full stop)so seems an odd one to slot in.
     
    Last edited: 4 Jan 2019
  25. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    Northern's draft Track Access Application bid for May included 75mph WCML paths for all the Manchester Airport to Barrow/Windermere via Wigan services. That implies that the two 185s currently hired in from TPE will become available for TPE's own services. However, the Northern timetable has not yet been loaded, so we'll have to wait and see what emerges.

    I guess 185 availablity also depends on whether or not a Northern 170 (or even two??) will still be hired in for the Leeds to Huddersfield stopper.
     
  26. 158756

    158756 Member

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    It isn't Preston or Liverpool, but 1.3m is good in the North. The only Northern station with a comparable or worse service is Harrogate, which is supposed to be getting 4tph including all day London service.

    I did think the train service requirements required the St Helens stop (or the alternative - one southbound train is shown calling at Lea Green), but TPE (or is it Network Rail?) have apparently decided pathing allowance (=timetable padding in this case) is preferable on the northbound trains. The evening Lime Street - Oxenholme train uses the same path but with a stop instead of the allowance.
     
  27. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

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    There's also the fallacy that a station with high usage justifies through trains to everywhere.

    Motherwell has high usage, so should every long distance train stop? Well no, because the bulk of demand is just people wanting to go to Glasgow.
     
  28. route101

    route101 Established Member

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    Is the 2110 busy on Friday and Saturday nights , keep meaning to use it as it gives you a full day down south even though you get into Glasgow at 0043 !
     
  29. MDB1images

    MDB1images Member

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    Doesnt run Saturdays.
    Not really, though on Fridays a few more drunks travel to Lancaster than midweek but still quiet.
    Occasionally get the odd track basher due to the routing from Law Jn which looks like will carry on from May 19.
     
  30. cle

    cle Established Member

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    Manchester to Windermere should be hourly (and electric) - with Liverpool possibly taking on Barrow and Morecambe on alternate services? But where does that leave Scotland, and we don't even have Liverpool - WCML - Edinburgh in contention.

    Makes me think that the whole Wigan-Cumbria trunk could see even more service. Possibly an hourly from Manchester to each Scottish city.

    And with the 2tph to London, we could really speed up the prime London-Glasgow hourlies to start stoking 4h10-4h20 standard timings, in advance of HS2.
     
  31. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Much better would be to use bi-modes, e.g. tarted up 769s, and run an hourly service to both from Manchester Airport splitting and joining at Lancaster.
     

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