TPE WCML service changes from May 2019

[Mathew S]

Manchester to Windermere should be hourly (and electric) - with Liverpool possibly taking on Barrow and Morecambe on alternate services? But where does that leave Scotland, and we don't even have Liverpool - WCML - Edinburgh in contention.

Makes me think that the whole Wigan-Cumbria trunk could see even more service. Possibly an hourly from Manchester to each Scottish city.

And with the 2tph to London, we could really speed up the prime London-Glasgow hourlies to start stoking 4h10-4h20 standard timings, in advance of HS2.

Electric to Windermere isn't going to happen - no wires.
The Barrows are meant to be hourly from Man Airport, with some separating at Preston/Lancaster to run half on to Windermere (I think).
Liverpool will get a direct TPE service to Edinburgh via York, and us intended change away via Preston, which I think is enough unless there's a sharp increase in demand.
I'm all for increasing capacity, and competition, north of Wigan on the WCML, but there's 3 journey opportunities per hour as it is. I'd rather sort out the Wigan-Warrington-Crewe fiasco first.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm all for increasing capacity, and competition, north of Wigan on the WCML, but there's 3 journey opportunities per hour as it is. I'd rather sort out the Wigan-Warrington-Crewe fiasco first.

A useful way to do that would be to extend the additional LNR Brum service (which will run via Alsager) to Preston, giving a second TPH to Brum too.

 

[Mathew S]

A useful way to do that would be to extend the additional LNR Brum service (which will run via Alsager) to Preston, giving a second TPH to Brum too.

Agreed

 

[Greybeard33]

Electric to Windermere isn't going to happen - no wires.
The Barrows are meant to be hourly from Man Airport, with some separating at Preston/Lancaster to run half on to Windermere (I think).

The franchise TSR is for 16tpd Airport - Lancaster via Wigan, of which 8 extend to Barrow and 4 to Windermere. No need for splitting/joining.

 

[Bevan Price]

[rant]
I have to say the calling pattern at St Helens Central does not impress. I had been led (/ led myself) to believe that all would stop there, particularly with it being such an infrequent service anyway.

Where to start...

Lets take the Sunday service first. Want a weekend in the Lake District, or Scotland. Get the last train back on a Sunday... Nice time leaving Glasgow not long before 7, - going through Lakes between 8 and 9 stopping at both Penrith and Oxenholme - 2112 leaving Lancaster. Lovely timed train for a weekend away. Nope doesn't stop at St Helens Central, passes through none stop. The only one on a Sunday that doesn't stop is arguably the most useful one.

Early dart on a Friday, 1612 off Liverpool, that should be about right for a 6pm arrival in the Lakes for the weekend or an 8pm meal in Glasgow. No, don't worry you lot can just stay put. As you are stood on the platform at 1626 you will watch it fly straight past.

So Business travel, after all that is what we are told makes the railway the big bucks. All those Expenses paid rail trips. How about a morning departure that gets you up to the Glasgow Office, or a change onto the Edinburgh office in time for a couple of Afternoon meetings. 0812 out of Liverpool, that should do nicely. Nope you guessed it another none stopper.
Home the next day 1629 Departure from Glasgow. Oh perfect. No wait, not only does this one not stop, it doesn't even stop at Wigan to let you connect into the Local train.

The 0731 weekdays towards Liverpool pre 0800 arrival, (will no doubt catch some of the morning commuters), but the other stops or lack of stops make it entirely pointless.

So much for an improved service, and not being having a Northern Connect service, because TPE would be calling.

[/rant]

Yes - as a St. Helens resident - a town with over 100,000 population - the proposed TP service is totally useless. One northbound train to Scotland, far too late in the day, and no southbound trains from Scotland at all (weekdays). Slightly better on Sundays, but the single southbound service is much too early for most potential users.

 

[Starmill]

Those quoting 1.3 million have apparently forgotten that St Helens passenger rail traffic is split three ways - to St Helens Central, to Lea Green and to a lesser extent to St Helens Junction.

 

[Starmill]

Must admit I agree - a consistent stopping pattern has to be the way to go.

Given they are all at different parts of the hour, it's unclear how this could easily be achieved. There are several hints that pathing them was difficult:
- They're timed at 100mph rather than 110
- They're at odd times spread throughout the hour
- One service has to omit a call at Wigan North Western
- One service has booked wait time at Huyton

 

[BMIFlyer]

Given they are all at different parts of the hour, it's unclear how this could easily be achieved. There are several hints that pathing them was difficult:
- They're timed at 100mph rather than 110
- They're at odd times spread throughout the hour
- One service has to omit a call at Wigan North Western
- One service has booked wait time at Huyton

Timed at 100mph as they will use a 185 initially.

 

[driver_m]

Yep, another St Helens resident here who thinks that service is useless. I'd expect Merseytravel to be very unhappy with that service level too. It's only 30mph through the station anyway, so shouldn't be a reason to not stop there. BR seemed to manage fine, but NR pathing reasoning would be just pathetic excuse making. You get the impression NR running no trains at all would make them happy as it gives 100% performance.

 

[route101]

Doesnt run Saturdays.
Not really, though on Fridays a few more drunks travel to Lancaster than midweek but still quiet.
Occasionally get the odd track basher due to the routing from Law Jn which looks like will carry on from May 19.

I see , is the 2210 from Edinburgh south a busy train during festival time?

What route does it do at law junction?

 

[Ianno87]

BR seemed to manage fine, but NR pathing reasoning would be just pathetic excuse making.

BR had not nearly as many trains to squeeze onto the network....

 

[driver_m]

BR had not nearly as many trains to squeeze onto the network....

I've just had a look at the services in more detail and one of them bizarelly stops at Lea Green which is way out from St Helens Town Centre on the way back from Scotland. I totally get the need for route knowledge with some services being routed via the Chat Moss route, but for consistency, it's a very odd way to run things.

Omitting some Lancaster and Lake District stops, and Motherwell which in location and size is a Scottish equivalent to St Helens is poor as well . Surely some people there want to head South, not just Glasgow?

 

[driver_m]

BR had not nearly as many trains to squeeze onto the network....

The Northern end of the WCML isn't exactly full.

 

[Ianno87]

The Northern end of the WCML isn't exactly full.

You clearly have no idea quite how slow a freight train over Shap or Beattock is compared to a 100-125mph passenger train. Or the complexity of threading long distance paths through the flat junctions in the Glasgow suburbs.

 

[driver_m]

You clearly have no idea quite how slow a freight train over Shap or Beattock is compared to a 100-125mph passenger train. Or the complexity of threading long distance paths through the flat junctions in the Glasgow suburbs.

Oh really..... Don't I? Despite the fact that I've actually driven over Shap itself? Do enlighten me with my lack of apparent knowledge. And I trained at Polmadie. So I know a thing or two about how Glasgow trains work.

 

[driver_m]

One other thing which isn't really for this thread, (though confirmed here) more for the TPE threads, it confirms that services won't be moving back to St Helens Junction as has been rumoured locally. Again, another daft decision considering that Junction is better served by public transport and has a bigger Car Park now than that at Lea Green.

 

[The Planner]

BR seemed to manage fine, but NR pathing reasoning would be just pathetic excuse making. You get the impression NR running no trains at all would make them happy as it gives 100% performance.

Depends what was bid, we don't tell the TOCs where to stop, god help us if we offered a train back with a different pattern to the bid!

 

[driver_m]

Depends what was bid, we don't tell the TOCs where to stop, god help us if we offered a train back with a different pattern to the bid!

Didn't someone stop to think though that having a return service stop at an entirely different station might not be a good look??!! Local Press will have a field day with this when it comes out into the public domain. It's a railway own goal in the making and needs a super quick alteration before they see it .

 

[The Planner]

Blame the TOC, we cannot suggest that as it is their business. We are at a point of it being "yes it works, no it doesn't, or dear TOC x or FOC y can we flex your train to make it work?"

 

[NORMAN471]

That's correct, it's this one
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y02066/2019/06/25/advanced

That's correct, it's this one
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y02066/2019/06/25/advanced

That's correct, it's this one
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y02066/2019/06/25/advanced

Should this service run from the May 2019 timetable, would it be reasonable to introduce the Lancaster stop for the 22.13 TPE service from Edinburgh to Manchester at 00.32 because Lancaster Castle station would be staffed / open for Northbound customers, whereas the May 2018 proposal this time last year included a stop at Lancaster which was removed before the timetable came into operation. Platform 3 is bi-directional and could be utilised for the last two stopping services one north, one south before closing for the night. We live in hope.

 

[Starmill]

I've just had a look at the services in more detail and one of them bizarelly stops at Lea Green which is way out from St Helens Town Centre on the way back from Scotland. I totally get the need for route knowledge with some services being routed via the Chat Moss route, but for consistency, it's a very odd way to run things.

Didn't someone stop to think though that having a return service stop at an entirely different station might not be a good look??!!

Blame the TOC, we cannot suggest that as it is their business. We are at a point of it being "yes it works, no it doesn't, or dear TOC x or FOC y can we flex your train to make it work?"

Which train between Lea Green and Scotland are you seeing? What day if the week/time? Just 1205 from Glasgow? It is worth remembering that TransPennine serve Lea Green all day now. This has attracted a significant number of new users.

 

[LeylandLen]

Given the weekday number of proposed n/b TPE services from 20 May between Preston and Carlisle is 20, and adding them to number of n/b Virgin services as per preceding Friday,which is 30 gives a weekday total of 50 in the Preston Carlisle corridor.Most of it I beleive is single track n/b , so presume there enough paths for freight (including 365 mail trains )?







0

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've just had a look at the services in more detail and one of them bizarelly stops at Lea Green which is way out from St Helens Town Centre on the way back from Scotland. I totally get the need for route knowledge with some services being routed via the Chat Moss route, but for consistency, it's a very odd way to run things.

Calling at Lea Green rather than St Helens Jn on the Chat Moss route is probably a local authority choice (as for the Scarborough service).
TPE can still say it serves St Helens (Metropolitan Borough).
By that reckoning Newton le Willows is also in "St Helens".
These things are important to Metro Mayors and MPs.

 

[TBSchenker]

The May TT change still shows roughly the same platforming arrangements at Manchester Airport . As discussed in other threads, the Airport can only accommodate 2*4-carriage trains if the platforms are permissively worked . Bearing in mind by May we will probably start seeing the Mk5s and 68s being introduced (initially to Scarborough but also Middlesbrough), the 397s on the West Coast Scottish services and the 802s on the Newcastle services, there is an impending issue with Airport platform occupation . In Real-time trains only TPE and TfW services are in for the Airport, but already I see one possible conflict.

To summise (selecting 1130-1230 as an example.

Platform 4 unavailable 1135-1147 (Middlesbrough)
Platform 1 unavailable 1143-1210 (Scottish)
Platform 2 unavailable 1207-1217 (Newcastle)

TfW services currently shown in platform 2 1214-1236 as the amended TPE diagrams have the Middlesbrough and Newcastle services interworking, but they'll stop when the new trains enter service . So the TfW service will need an alternative platform .

Add to this the planned Northern services and the Airport is going to be tightly constrained. A couple of late runners and platform space is going to be limited.

 

[driver9000]

I see , is the 2210 from Edinburgh south a busy train during festival time?

The 22:10 from Edinburgh has been consistently dead since it started carrying barely double figures.

 

[TBSchenker]

The 22:10 from Edinburgh has been consistently dead since it started carrying barely double figures.

I thought it might have been popular during the summer with inhabitants north of the border having an early morning flight from Manchester Airport . Obviously not, unless the service hasn't been advertised enough . It has potential to be a well patronised service for those who want a bargain and have no travel time issues with it being overnight.

 

[driver9000]

I thought it might have been popular during the summer with inhabitants north of the border having an early morning flight from Manchester Airport . Obviously not, unless the service hasn't been advertised enough . It has potential to be a well patronised service for those who want a bargain and have no travel time issues with it being overnight.

It has been much quieter than expected. I thought it would be an incredibly popular service for early fliers. It's busiest section is Haymarket to Lockerbie.

 

[TBSchenker]

It's busiest section is Haymarket to Lockerbie.

And for an (off duty) Carlisle station staff member who rocked up slightly worse for wear at 22.09:20 just before Christmas!

 

[route101]

I thought it might have been popular during the summer with inhabitants north of the border having an early morning flight from Manchester Airport . Obviously not, unless the service hasn't been advertised enough . It has potential to be a well patronised service for those who want a bargain and have no travel time issues with it being overnight.

Interesting , if you had a early flight at Manchester you could take it , still time to wait at other end though . Id thought in the summer it would be popular with people at the Edinburgh festival .

 

[tbtc]

Electric to Windermere isn't going to happen - no wires.
The Barrows are meant to be hourly from Man Airport, with some separating at Preston/Lancaster to run half on to Windermere (I think).
Liverpool will get a direct TPE service to Edinburgh via York, and us intended change away via Preston, which I think is enough unless there's a sharp increase in demand.
I'm all for increasing capacity, and competition, north of Wigan on the WCML, but there's 3 journey opportunities per hour as it is. I'd rather sort out the Wigan-Warrington-Crewe fiasco first.

Agreed.

I wasn't aware of the massive St Helens - Glasgow market until reading this thread (!) - I thought that finding something like finding a spare 319 or two to run an hourly Wigan - Warrington - Crewe service would be a much better use of resources (just a shame that it'd be too close to half an hour journey time for one EMU to run such a service every hour, but there are going to be plenty of 319s without a home, so not a deal breaker). I appreciate that this isn't what this thread was set up to discuss, am only bringing it up to agree with @matthew S 's point that it'd be a better use of resources.

Yep, another St Helens resident here who thinks that service is useless. I'd expect Merseytravel to be very unhappy with that service level too. It's only 30mph through the station anyway, so shouldn't be a reason to not stop there. BR seemed to manage fine, but NR pathing reasoning would be just pathetic excuse making. You get the impression NR running no trains at all would make them happy as it gives 100% performance.

Didn't someone stop to think though that having a return service stop at an entirely different station might not be a good look??!! Local Press will have a field day with this when it comes out into the public domain. It's a railway own goal in the making and needs a super quick alteration before they see it .

Pathetic? Useless? Own goal? Really?

It's a brand new service (not replacing any existing ones), a new TOC for that line. Given the huge problems with the May 2018 timetable, it's not unrealistic to wait for the service to bed in, see how reliable it is, how many conflicts occur with other services, before they can be certain of the reliability of the route (since it can obviously run via either St Helens Central or St Helens Junction).

Network Rail get the blame for a lot of things on here (I've criticised them myself), but after almost nine months of them getting bashed for permitting the May 2018 timetable paths (that have caused big problems with repercussions across much of northern England) it seems a bit unfair to criticise them for this Liverpool - Glasgow service not always stopping at St Helens. Once bitten, twice shy and all that.

Remember, it's much easier to introduce a new service than to impose any cuts - if they introduce three Scottish services a day to St Helens Central and then decide that reliability problems meant that it'd be better to drop them down to just one or two services a day then there'll be uproar. Much better to introduce a token service to St Helens at first and see how things go.

You'll probably see a few moany tweets about it, but you'll find people moaning on Twitter about most things - I doubt local journalists will be holding the front page for "Shock Horror - St Helens only gets some additional trains".