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TPE WCML service changes from May 2019

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Bletchleyite

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And by doing so they have turned the Liverpool-Manchester leg of the supposed "fast" Liverpool-Newcastle inter-city service into a regional service — in German terms IC becomes RE.

Other than the WCML service which is more like an IR (or modern day IC, where the VTWC services would be the ICE), in German terms all of TPE is a RE. That it likes to talk itself up as some kind of InterCity operation doesn't mean it is, not even with fancy rolling stock. And it's not like it's rare for DB REs to be LHCS, so just having the Mk5s does not make it IC.
 
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Other than the WCML service which is more like an IR (or modern day IC, where the VTWC services would be the ICE), in German terms all of TPE is a RE. That it likes to talk itself up as some kind of InterCity operation doesn't mean it is, not even with fancy rolling stock. And it's not like it's rare for DB REs to be LHCS, so just having the Mk5s does not make it IC.
Given half-decent stock Liverpool-Manchester-(Huddersfield-)Leeds-York-Darlington-Durham-Newcastle is just as much IC as the German services that go through the "Greater Ruhr" area, and in British terms just as much as an XC service from Birmingham to Newcastle making its early way north calling at Burton-on-Trent, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Wakefield, Leeds, York, Darlington, and Durham on the way. And yet no-one seems to dispute that XC is an inter-city operation. Doesn't it all come down to the importance of the intermediate places served? (And yet, to argue against myself, some of the places German ICEs serve are not that significant—Montabaur, for example.)
 

geoffk

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This service obviously has to fit in around existing services. I imagine one of the reasons for adding stops at St Helens at all might have been to slow it down enough for the paths to fit - conversely, a stop on on of the other services might have slowed it down enough to cause a conflict.

AFAIK, St Helens was never promised any stops on this service at all, so while I sympathise that it's not what you might have hoped for, it's not fair to expect numerous services to Scotland from a station with only 1.3 million passengers per year, especially when there are easy connections at Wigan (for the Virgin services) and Preston (for the TPE Manchester Scotland services).
Disagree there. Like notlob.divad, I assumed all these would call at St. Helens Central. It serves a large town with more than 100,000 population. If time is an issue then omit Wigan, which has numerous other trains to Glasgow and of course to Liverpool. You wouldn't want St. Helens - Liverpool passengers at peak times so add a pu/sd restriction as appropriate.
 

Bletchleyite

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Disagree there. Like notlob.divad, I assumed all these would call at St. Helens Central. It serves a large town with more than 100,000 population. If time is an issue then omit Wigan, which has numerous other trains to Glasgow and of course to Liverpool. You wouldn't want St. Helens - Liverpool passengers at peak times so add a pu/sd restriction as appropriate.

I thought they would as well - though I personally think "all or none". Omitting Wigan would be silly, as it provides connections in all directions.
 

Mathew S

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I thought they would as well - though I personally think "all or none". Omitting Wigan would be silly, as it provides connections in all directions.
Agreed. I do think that what we can see now feels like a work in progress though; I'm sure there will be tweaks and changes over the next few years as things bed in and new trains come into use.
 

driver_m

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To me, it feels like deliberately sabotaging the stops by making the service so bad, that no one uses it and TPE/NR turn round and make them all first stop Wigan justifying it with poor loadings, giving them the ability to run either way into Liverpool. The whole point of this Northern Connect service is to link all the big towns in the North together with quality services if not served already by another TOC, so if this TPE service isn't doing that, then where is our Northern Connect service to replace it? I've asked my MP to look into it, and he's already contacted TPE over this .
 

Bletchleyite

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To me, it feels like deliberately sabotaging the stops by making the service so bad, that no one uses it and TPE/NR turn round and make them all first stop Wigan justifying it with poor loadings, giving them the ability to run either way into Liverpool. The whole point of this Northern Connect service is to link all the big towns in the North together with quality services if not served already by another TOC, so if this TPE service isn't doing that, then where is our Northern Connect service to replace it? I've asked my MP to look into it, and he's already contacted TPE over this .

The purpose of that TPE service isn't to link North West towns together, whether they be big ones or small ones. It's intended for connecting North West towns with Lakeland and Scotland.

The primary transport demand from St Helens is to/from Liverpool as a local service (I bet most locals would happily trade through services to anywhere for being part of Merseyrail proper i.e. with 4tph of all stations EMUs), and a couple of EMUs an hour is precisely what this requires and has.

I do agree it should stop there - however if it ends up full of people making local journeys around Liverpool and Preston that isn't really its role and the stop will need to go or have u/s put against it.
 

Mathew S

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The purpose of that TPE service isn't to link North West towns together, whether they be big ones or small ones. It's intended for connecting North West towns with Lakeland and Scotland.

The primary transport demand from St Helens is to/from Liverpool as a local service (I bet most locals would happily trade through services to anywhere for being part of Merseyrail proper i.e. with 4tph of all stations EMUs), and a couple of EMUs an hour is precisely what this requires and has.

I do agree it should stop there - however if it ends up full of people making local journeys around Liverpool and Preston that isn't really its role and the stop will need to go or have u/s put against it.
Yep. There's a risk of the same happening as with the Manchester - Scotland services when they stopped at Wigan, and these trains becoming severely overcrowded with local passengers. If making local journeys on them unattractive avoids that, it's a worthwhile exercise.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yep. There's a risk of the same happening as with the Manchester - Scotland services when they stopped at Wigan, and these trains becoming severely overcrowded with local passengers. If making local journeys on them unattractive avoids that, it's a worthwhile exercise.

Of course, what it shows is the need for a fast Wigan-Manchester EMU, which I think is now going to be provided if it isn't already?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Of course, what it shows is the need for a fast Wigan-Manchester EMU, which I think is now going to be provided if it isn't already?

Currently it's the Airport-Blackpool 319 via Wigan, but it will become an Airport-Cumbria DMU from May with the Blackpool electric rerouted via Bolton.
 

Greybeard33

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Currently it's the Airport-Blackpool 319 via Wigan, but it will become an Airport-Cumbria DMU from May with the Blackpool electric rerouted via Bolton.
The TSR is 8tpd Airport - Barrow, 4tpd Airport - Windermere and 4tpd Airport - Lancaster. Maybe some of the Lancaster terminators might be worked by EMUs?
 

driver_m

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The purpose of that TPE service isn't to link North West towns together, whether they be big ones or small ones. It's intended for connecting North West towns with Lakeland and Scotland.

The primary transport demand from St Helens is to/from Liverpool as a local service (I bet most locals would happily trade through services to anywhere for being part of Merseyrail proper i.e. with 4tph of all stations EMUs), and a couple of EMUs an hour is precisely what this requires and has.

I do agree it should stop there - however if it ends up full of people making local journeys around Liverpool and Preston that isn't really its role and the stop will need to go or have u/s put against it.

The purpose of Northern Connect is to link all major population areas of Northern England with high quality stock. UNLESS there is already a service in place. That is why we haven't got a Northern Connect service in the pipeline as yet. Our Mid Cheshire friend said once that the supposed Liverpool- Bradford may only stop at Huyton, heading east, TPE serving Lea Green is supposed to be our new shiny thing, even though it's impossible to park up at and a worse location than the junction.

I'd argue that you're wrong on your Merseyrail link up too. The one thing that keeps coming up round here is a reinstatement of the Junction-Central line with a service to Manchester. The Liverpool service isn't too bad with 3 an hour, one fast service, from both Central and Lea Green, just really wants moving back to the Junction. The other key demand asked for is a station at Carr Mill. The link up with Merseyrail would be great, but it would almost certainly stifle long distance services heading via St Helens as a result .
 

notlob.divad

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The purpose of Northern Connect is to link all major population areas of Northern England with high quality stock. UNLESS there is already a service in place. That is why we haven't got a Northern Connect service in the pipeline as yet. Our Mid Cheshire friend said once that the supposed Liverpool- Bradford may only stop at Huyton, heading east, TPE serving Lea Green is supposed to be our new shiny thing, even though it's impossible to park up at and a worse location than the junction.

I'd argue that you're wrong on your Merseyrail link up too. The one thing that keeps coming up round here is a reinstatement of the Junction-Central line with a service to Manchester. The Liverpool service isn't too bad with 3 an hour, one fast service, from both Central and Lea Green, just really wants moving back to the Junction. The other key demand asked for is a station at Carr Mill. The link up with Merseyrail would be great, but it would almost certainly stifle long distance services heading via St Helens as a result .

Quite.

I am surprised they didn't declare the Blackpool - Liverpool into a Northern Connect service but that would have required some more new rolling stock. that is by the by. However, IMO TPE on the Liverpool - Scotland service was supposed to be the new service St Helens were getting, (TPE on the Chat Moss route was only a replacement for the fast Airport service that used to exist). Now we find this service is about as useful as a Chocolate Teapot. So ineffect St Helens is possibly the only population centre in the North of England not seeing any significant service increase due to the upgrade work. Once left behind, always left behind.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Having looked at the TPE Liverpool-Glasgow services from May on RTT, I see the last Glasgow-Liverpool of the day doesn't even stop at Wigan, let alone St Helens!
The late Liverpool-Oxenholme is also an extra above the 3tpd each way that was originally announced.
I see there is a late Manchester service each way via Wigan and Chat Moss (non-stop from Preston) rather than via Bolton.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea.../0000-2359?stp=WVSC&show=all&order=wtt&toc=TP
 

Bletchleyite

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That last ECS off the Oxenholme is interesting. It appears to have station stops, and I guess a driver and guard, so why not run it in service as far as Manc Picc?

The outbound to Oxenholme could be quite useful for weekends in the Lakes, though you'd need a taxi to your accommodation. Pity it can't run to Windermere and back, as there's nowt on the branch at that time - I reckon on summer Fridays it could do quite well there.
 

30907

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Quite.
Now we find this service is about as useful as a Chocolate Teapot. So ineffect St Helens is possibly the only population centre in the North of England not seeing any significant service increase due to the upgrade work. Once left behind, always left behind.

I was under the impression that May was an interim timetable, am I wrong?
 

Mathew S

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I was under the impression that May was an interim timetable, am I wrong?
The final tpe timetable as per the 2015 franchise agreement was never due to be introduced into December 2019. So yes, it's an interim timetable.
 

Class 170101

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That last ECS off the Oxenholme is interesting. It appears to have station stops, and I guess a driver and guard, so why not run it in service as far as Manc Picc?

The outbound to Oxenholme could be quite useful for weekends in the Lakes, though you'd need a taxi to your accommodation. Pity it can't run to Windermere and back, as there's nowt on the branch at that time - I reckon on summer Fridays it could do quite well there.

Gets overtaken by 1M95 does it not? Seens to serve as a route refresh for train crew to run services via Wigan North Western.
 

BMIFlyer

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The TPE WCML service from Liverpool will now begin in the Autumn and not from the May timetable.

This is just a rumour at the moment but my source for this is usually correct.
 
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EE Andy b1

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The TPE WCML service from Liverpool will now begin in the Autumn and not from the May timetable.

That would not surprise me one bit and the incompetence of First group goes on and I expect Northern and Arriva to be the same.
Take both franchise back because neither are up to the job!! Passenger wows just go on!!
 

Bletchleyite

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That would not surprise me one bit and the incompetence of First group goes on and I expect Northern and Arriva to be the same.
Take both franchise back because neither are up to the job!! Passenger wows just go on!!

The lack of competence appears to be more that of the rolling stock builders, does it not? Rolling stock delays are the primary cause. I don't think it would be sensible with TPE/Northern overcrowding to be using a 185 for this purpose when there aren't enough for what they are already doing with them.
 

385001

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The TPE WCML service from Liverpool will now begin in the Autumn and not from the May timetable.

This is just a rumour at the moment but my source for this is usually correct.

Disappointing but this wouldn't surprise me at all. Seems a bit ambitious to introduce a new service at the same time as introducing the new rolling stock.
 

EE Andy b1

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Not just rolling stock delays. Training is so far behind, the Mk3 debacle. Could have been training Class 68 and handling LHCS much sooner ready for the Mk5a sets. CAF are not faultless obviously and we still don't know the full reasons behind delays in testing and mileage accumulation and where are the last few sets, they must be built by now.
I know some staff that are being made redundant by Alstom are going to CAF in the next few weeks so there is obviously shortages in staffing, is that part of the problem.
It's just a farce from start to finish, in my opinion and stronger management is required.

TPE could have been using DRS Mk2s and Class 68s to cover for lack of 185s. Would be getting driver/guard training/handling on LHCS and moving passengers.
There are always options at a cost, but what cost lack of passenger faith.
 

Mathew S

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Where did you here that it was delayed until the autumn?
@BMIFlyer is a reliable source for this kind of thing, given his job. I imagine, and I don't know whether anyone might confirm this, but I expect it relates to whether/when TPE get the 185s back from Northern.
 

Johnny Lewis

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Most LIV-GLC services have been converted to Class 5s for May, I assume that those that are still showing as Class 1s will also be duly converted to Class 5s too. A pity.
 
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