TPEs 350s - will they really help?

[Nym]

Shame they gone for 350s, this is what I think it should be, Class 90 and 8-9 carriages

Why? So we can increase dwell times and acceleration zones?

I'm not the biggest fan of four car 350s being used on this route, I'd have much preferred 6 car versions, or just a follow on of the ScotRail order for Class 380s in six car form, but the patterns on this route really don't suit LHCS. (And you don't hear me say that often!)

 

[rail-britain]

Out of curiosity which services are they?

Early morning southbound and late evening northbound, two of each services currently operated by West Coast, are transferring to TPE franchise
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unless it's changed recently, VWC + connections advance fares for Manchester to Cumbria/Scotland tend to be cheaper than TPE advance fares, even though the VWC + connections tend to mean travelling on TPE services south of Preston.

Yes, TPE are now offering more competitive Preston / Carlisle / Scotland fares, as against West Coast
On the last five journeys the difference between fares has increased, as the allocation of advance fares has changed in order to push these customers on to TPE services

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm not the biggest fan of four car 350s being used on this route, I'd have much preferred 6 car versions, or just a follow on of the ScotRail order for Class 380s in six car form

Worth bearing in mind that the 350s are almost certainly a short term measure until something more suitable can be ordered (probably the same as will be procured for the other wires TPE routes). Hence why the 350s are sub-leased from LM.

Early morning southbound and late evening northbound, two of each services currently operated by West Coast, are transferring to TPE franchise

Forgive me for being a bit dense but which services exactly as I'm still confused? Service from where to where?

 

[tbtc]

So on the one hand the WCML north of Preston is so busy that its trains are at capacity (standing off peak etc), then on the other hand TPE and Virgin are competing against each other with bargainous fares?

Is the line too busy (with the more regular/longer 350s not sufficient to replace 185s) or still fairly empty (hence TOCs having to offer really cheap deals to fill trains that would otherwise be too quiet)?

 

[rail-britain]

As far as I'm aware Glasgow will likely get more London services and more capacity on existing services, through there being more Pendolinos available and 11 car sets. However, I've also heard suggestions that Glasgow-London services will be speeded up by missing out Lake District calls, meaning more reliance on TPE for picking up those passengers

There is no change in the number of West Coast services between Glasgow and Euston, they are simply being retimed, with the early morning southbound and late evening northbound being swapped to TPE (as above)
This will allow even fewer stops on these services, much to the annoyance of several MPs who have found out about this
The offset is an increase in services between Scotland - Carlisle - Preston, by all three service corridors (TPE, West Coast Euston and West Coast Birmingham)

Sadly the 11 car sets won't make much difference, the details won't be known until the franchisee decides what the 9 car Class 390 units will operate (DfT had advised me the provision would be completely random)

Yes, the Euston services are to have reduced journey times, details are in the franchise documents
Yes, some services will drop the stops between Carlisle and Preston, where they currently stop there
Equally, Preston will become the last stop, removing the duplication at Wigan and Warrington
A similar change of service pattern will apply to Scotland - Birmingham services

 

[swt_passenger]

Class 350s are splendid units but there is absolutely nowhere to put luggage. Bit of a problem for an Anglo-Scottish service!

Not even on the overhead luggage racks?

I think a fair proportion of people could help themselves by taking more appropriate luggage on trains. All the Desiro variant's overhead racks are perfectly OK for soft luggage.

 

[tbtc]

Early morning southbound and late evening northbound, two of each services currently operated by West Coast, are transferring to TPE franchise

Forgive me for being a bit dense but which services exactly as I'm still confused? Service from where to where?

My understanding was that this would be the Glasgow - Preston parts of some early/late WCML services being run by TPE north of Preston and connecting to a Preston - Birmingham/ London Virgin service there, rather than seeing TPE actually running to London/ Birmingham.

In which case its a sensible move, maybe it'd be more economical for TPE to run some ECML services north of Newcastle first/last thing (rather than a nine coach East Coast service being fairly empty).

 

[swt_passenger]

Hence why the 350s are sub-leased from LM.

They aren't 'sub leased'.

IIRC the legal term used in the tender award statement was that the contract for the 10 extra units was 'novated' to TPE (ie taken over completely).

 

[WatcherZero]

So on the one hand the WCML north of Preston is so busy that its trains are at capacity (standing off peak etc), then on the other hand TPE and Virgin are competing against each other with bargainous fares?

Is the line too busy (with the more regular/longer 350s not sufficient to replace 185s) or still fairly empty (hence TOCs having to offer really cheap deals to fill trains that would otherwise be too quiet)?

They would know the price/demand matrix for the route better than any of us can guess but Wigan-Preston is the peak loading of the London-Scotland route, will start emptying out slowly after that. The main restriction however isnt capacity of rolling stock its paths affecting frequency with their being unmet demand for more freight paths north of Preston.

 

[tbtc]

Numbers probably would work either, 40x4 car, if as planned we go to strengthened/splitting services 20 would be needed for Manchester-Scotland only leaving 20 for all TPE's other routes. Remember theres 51 185's and a similar number at least would be needed for electrified routes!

Sorry to be pedantic, but there is one corner of the TPE map that won't see EMUs (the Cleethorpes route) - the 170s aren't enough to run this.

Not really sure what your being pedantic about? The freed up 185's will be enough for the few remaining diesel routes and some new services along with the occasional diesel strengthening of single EMU routes. The nine 170's would probably be cascaded to another franchise.

I thought that you were discussing whether the 41x365s could replace all of the 51x185s - sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick

I think Waverley125 means South TPE west of Doncaster might be wired in CP6

It might, but then a lot of things might if the current momentum is maintained. The problem is when people say things like "south TPE will get wired in CP6" as fact, the "chinese whispers" start. I think its right to put a caveat in these things at the moment.

 

[rail-britain]

Forgive me for being a bit dense but which services exactly as I'm still confused? Service from where to where?

Two early morning southbound and two late evening services northbound, currently operated by West Coast will transfer to TPE
Details are still to be confirmed with West Coast, as to how they will replace these in order to maintain the existing service level (in effect two new services in each direction), this is a decision for the new franchise holder
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My understanding was that this would be the Glasgow - Preston parts of some early/late WCML services being run by TPE north of Preston and connecting to a Preston - Birmingham/ London Virgin service there, rather than seeing TPE actually running to London/ Birmingham.

Not just Glasgow - Preston, but also Edinburgh - Preston
It is a complete transfer of these (existing current) services from West Coast to TPE
There will be no equivalent replacement service operated by West Coast

Basically, West Coast (Virgin Trains) were fed up running these four services almost empty between Glasgow and Preston, where a 3 car DMU is more suitable
Yet again, a change of train gets introduced...

 

[tbtc]

Not just Glasgow - Preston, but also Edinburgh - Preston
It is a complete transfer of these (existing current) services from West Coast to TPE
There will be no equivalent replacement service operated by West Coast

Basically, West Coast (Virgin Trains) were fed up running these four services almost empty between Glasgow and Preston, where a 3 car DMU is more suitable
Yet again, a change of train gets introduced...

But it's only the service north of Preston which TPE will be filling in for, rather than complete replacement of the Virgin service further south too.

 

[pemma]

Yes, TPE are now offering more competitive Preston / Carlisle / Scotland fares, as against West Coast
On the last five journeys the difference between fares has increased, as the allocation of advance fares has changed in order to push these customers on to TPE services

Just tried 9th October Manchester-Glasgow and it's £16 advances for both on almost all journey options with advance tickets available. However, Virgin have a £16 advance currently available for a 07:15 departure, while the earliest TPE only departure which has an Advance available is 09:16, so an early departure is cheaper using Virgin.

I can also find £16 and £17 advances for Knutsford-Glasgow using Virgin north of Preston but no advance fares using TPE north of Preston, so the point I made in my later post about Virgin being cheaper if you start beyond Manchester is still accurate.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Why? So we can increase dwell times and acceleration zones?

I'm not the biggest fan of four car 350s being used on this route, I'd have much preferred 6 car versions, or just a follow on of the ScotRail order for Class 380s in six car form, but the patterns on this route really don't suit LHCS. (And you don't hear me say that often!)

I really can't see the average passenger wanting to take class 90's + MK3's if such stock was even available, in any case whatever they would be, would need some decent refurb if they are the Greater Anglia ones.

 

[harz99]

All the Scotland - Manchester services are pretty much running at capacity now
This is pretty much due to the service pattern that is now in place; virtually the only operator calling at Lockerbie, competitive advance fares, etc
If you think it is bad now, wait until 2014 when several services currently operated by Class 390 swap over to Class 185 / 350

Another major factor is that EDB services to/from PRE and points east/south are much less frequent than services to/from GLC - couple that with one 3 car class 185 rather than a Super Voyager or Pendolino and of course the Tpex services run at near capacity.

 

[Blindtraveler]

and the only difference the 350s will make is that youl be standing with your nose in somebodys armpit, with0luggage all round you, half way up the isle, but youll be doing it without a QSK19 grumbling away. In other words, TPE Fail on pritty much everything, again!

 

[YorkshireBear]

and the only difference the 350s will make is that youl be standing with your nose in somebodys armpit, with0luggage all round you, half way up the isle, but youll be doing it without a QSK19 grumbling away. In other words, TPE Fail on pritty much everything, again!

Yeah cos it was all TPEs idea wasnt it :roll:

 

[pemma]

I really can't see the average passenger wanting to take class 90's + MK3's if such stock was even available, in any case whatever they would be, would need some decent refurb if they are the Greater Anglia ones.

I can't either. Most passengers were probably glad to see the unrefurbished mk3s which was replaced by new stock in Pendolinos, even if the seat-window alignment isn't great.

 

[ainsworth74]

Yeah cos it was all TPEs idea wasnt it

Quite. If you give a TOC an entirely new group of services to run and no additional stock to do it, what do you expect? When TPE was let it was not originally with Manchester - Scotland attached so there was no account made for it in any of the bids rolling stock provision.

 

[Beveridges]

Why? So we can increase dwell times and acceleration zones?

With 7000+ horsepower, a class 90 can accelerate quick as long as it doesnt have a particularly large load behind it

I really can't see the average passenger wanting to take class 90's + MK3's if such stock was even available

I can't either. Especially when they normally would stand in an overcrowded hot stuffy 185 with very limited space available, and air conditioning turned either too low or not working at all, and rough ride quality. Often full & standing even outside of the peak hours.

Yes, I can imagine a 90+MK3's with plenty of space, seats and cooling systems working properly, and passengers refusing to take it, and instead getting on the next 142 and changing at Preston for the Voyager

 

[Blindtraveler]

agreed. On my earlier point I should have made myself clearer - TPE fail because they are the ones that take the flack. I grant you and dont deny that it was foolish to alocate them these runs without additional resources. In my earlier post I simply answered the question of will the 350s make a difference and TPE fail again refured to the fact that in the eyes of your average WCML traveler they have not done a good job.
The point about how big a mistake the allocation of these runs and who is to blame has been debated before and will doubtless be done again. I was simply highlighting the fact that when a daily fail reporter comes up to Edinburgh for the festival they woant fail to notice the major overcrouding on some cross border runs and make a thing of it.
Appologies Yorkshire0Bear and Ainsworth.

 

[sprinterguy]

With 7000+ horsepower, a class 90 can accelerate quick as long as it doesnt have a particularly large load behind it

A locos stated horsepower is always that of it's continuous rating. In the case of the class 90, that is 5000hp. The "7000+ horsepower" is just the locos maximum rated output, which cannot be sustained for more than a short period of time.

In order to provide greater capacity than a class 350, a class 90 would have to be hauling at least four carriages (Three mark 3 TSOs essentially matches the proposed capacity of the TPE 350/4s), plus presumably a DVT. At such a train length, perhaps a 90 would be able to keep time with a 350. Does anybody know if the timings on the North Berwick branch with class 90s and mark 3s that occured a few years ago are comparable to the present times with 380s? I don't believe that they have changed. If the train length is longer than, say, 5 carriages though, it is likely that the class 90 will be hamstrung by having only half as many powered axles as the class 350. If I remember rightly, the class 90s were criticised for being poor at "keeping their feet" when tackling the gradients found on the northern sections of the WCML in poor railhead conditions due to having only four powered axles, even when compared to the similarly arranged 86s and 87s.

 

[pemma]

Especially when they normally would stand in an overcrowded hot stuffy 185 with very limited space available, and air conditioning turned either too low or not working at all, and rough ride quality. Often full & standing even outside of the peak hours.

Yes, I can imagine a 90+MK3's with plenty of space, seats and cooling systems working properly, and passengers refusing to take it, and instead getting on the next 142 and changing at Preston for the Voyager

Remember the big fuss FGW passengers made when they got 142s on a temporary basis despite FGW seeing an increase in overall capacity? Are you saying Northerners wouldn't kick up a fuss about old replacing new?

And who would pay for a large number of mk3s to be refurbished and put in to use? I imagine no-one considering the TPE franchise expiry date, so they would finish up as 4 car sets that haven't been refurbished.

Also, most Manchester-Preston services are operated by 150s or 185s. I would certainly prefer to travel on a Voyager north of Preston to a 185.

 

[WatcherZero]

Wouldnt the locomotive be too lightly loaded to get good traction and therefore good acceleration with just four coaches?

 

[BR Blue]

I wouldn`t grumble too much about the 350/4`s. They`re the only confirmed EMU`s (so far) for the North-west. All 10 of them.

 

[Beveridges]

Thought the north west was confirmed some 319s ?

 

[Class377/5]

Thought the north west was confirmed some 319s ?

They are 'confirmed' for the GW and Manchester triangle electrification scheme but any that go to the north will be part of Northern as local services.

Note that not due to at least late 2015 before the first 319's get released and that if they are sent north with the promised refurbishment.

Also in the interview with Modern Railways the other month the guy from TPE mentioned ability to have 4, 6 and 8 cars on the Scotland services.

 

[pemma]

Wouldnt the locomotive be too lightly loaded to get good traction and therefore good acceleration with just four coaches?

True but again it might be decided the class 90s are too expensive so a cheaper loco might be obtained.

Thought the north west was confirmed some 319s ?

They are 'confirmed' for the GW and Manchester triangle electrification scheme but any that go to the north will be part of Northern as local services.

Technically that's not still the case. The previous government indirectly said 319s would go to the North West and Thames Valley in saying that refurbished 4 car EMU released from Thameslink would be used. The new government reworded that to say something along the lines of the EMUs released from Thameslink would be returned to the leasing operator and as a result of there being more EMUs available there will be sufficient EMUs available for newly electrified routes, leaving the door open for something other than the 319s to be cascaded to the North West.

 

[sprinterguy]

Wouldnt the locomotive be too lightly loaded to get good traction and therefore good acceleration with just four coaches?

That doesn't make much sense to me: There's still exactly the same amount of weight on the powered axles whether the loco is light engine or hauling ten coaches. If anything, you could expect greater wheelslip on a wet rail when a loco is trying to shift a heavy load. Class 90s can move like the wind when they are running light, not the sort of performance you would expect to see when they've got a full rake of coaches behind them!

 

[HSTEd]

At most you could get a DVT, 4 Mark 3s and a Class 90 into the platforms at Oxford Road.... which would have track access charges of 74.4p/mile, compared to a grand total of 31.34p/mile for a four car Cl350.

You would have to account for the Cl350s figures being adjusted upwards due to greater track damage from its higher speed.
But I can't see the Class 90 winning, despite the fact taht four Mark 3s would likely have more seats than the Class 350 by a significant margin.

Once you pay over a million pounds for the rebuild of the Class 90s and March 3 coaches, you almost certainly end up behind, even though you would save nearly £5m over purchasing new multiple units.

Unless you propose to get 30 years more life after the rebuild from the 90/Mk3 formation.