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TPExpress Man - Scotland

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Bovverboy

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Bovverboy said:
What would you say is currently suppressing it?

Overcrowding, which like traffic congestion tends to self-manage as people avoid using known overcrowded services. TPE generally is seriously overcrowded, and so I think when more capacity becomes available (not to mention in what looks to be a very high quality environment) some or all of the new capacity will soon re-fill.

But if, in the short term, capacity is going to be reduced rather than increased (and the evidence seems to say that it is), isn't that going to further suppress demand?
 
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BMIFlyer

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Well, that's one way to stop overcrowding. Let's not stop at some stations so we don't pick as many passengers up!
They could in the long term run Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh non-stop, might get away with a two car train then.
Priceless.

Dropping Wigan and Penrith from May is nothing to do with overcrowding. It is to do with timings. Can't keep up to the times via Bolton which are in the system now, yet still run via Wigan.

Besides, as the stop at Wigan technically vanishes when running via Bolton, it won't be added to run non stop via Wigan whilst waiting for the Bolton wires to be strung up. It adds time to the journey which from May will not be a good thing. The challenge is to try and claw back as much of that extra time as possible and this is the only way to do it.

Wigan passengers have enough trains to Manchester that they can use, plus if the inside info is true, they will have a Lancaster to Manchester via Wigan NW express service from Northern that they can use. Let TPE WCML trains be what they are supposed to be - express - not commuter rides.
 

BMIFlyer

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We now use 9 of the 350's every day, even if 10 are available.

You may have noticed during the week (not just Fri-Sun) that more of the Edinburgh trains are 8 cars now.
 

Mathew S

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Wigan passengers have enough trains to Manchester that they can use, plus if the inside info is true, they will have a Lancaster to Manchester via Wigan NW express service from Northern that they can use.
Not actually true about there being enough capacity Wigan-Manchester, hence there being an extra 1tph and increased capacity being added. However, the Lancaster/Barrow/Windermere to Manchester via Wigan service is (sort of) a direct replacement for the Scottish services, so it shouldn't have an effect on Wigan commuter services other than passengers being miffed to see the shiny nice 350s they're used to speeding past and then having to board a sprinter.
 

Bovverboy

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Bovverboy said:
But if, in the short term, capacity is going to be reduced rather than increased (and the evidence seems to say that it is), isn't that going to further suppress demand?

On the very small number of trains that are presently 8-car 350s, yes.

On Fridays and Sundays 75% of journeys on Manchester - Edinburgh are covered by double 350s, I'm not sure that I'd call 75% 'a very small number'. On Sundays, the remaining 25% are covered by a double 185, and even they have a greater passenger capacity than a single 397 is going to have.
 

Bovverboy

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We now use 9 of the 350's every day, even if 10 are available.

You may have noticed during the week (not just Fri-Sun) that more of the Edinburgh trains are 8 cars now.

It was indeed mentioned on this forum, a while back now, that one particular journey is now covered by a double, when it hadn't been before. I didn't check it out, I admitted recently that I had to a point lost track of what TPE was doing, perhaps I'll need to catch up.
 

route101

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You could get away with missing out Preston . Not seen an 8 car set on a Glasgow for a long time .
 

Mathew S

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You could get away with missing out Preston . Not seen an 8 car set on a Glasgow for a long time .
In the absence of Wigan, Preston is the interchange for Liverpool, however, so omitting it is far from ideal. It will also be an interchange for passengers from Bolton, Blackpool, Blackburn, and Wigan.
Omit Wigan by all means, just not sure omitting Preston as well would be sensible.
 

Chester1

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Well, that's one way to stop overcrowding. Let's not stop at some stations so we don't pick as many passengers up!
They could in the long term run Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh non-stop, might get away with a two car train then.
Priceless.

It is not to reduce overcrowding but due to pathing issues caused by the electrification delays. The May TPE timetable is based on running via Bolton which once electrified will be faster than via Wigan. Cutting out Oxford Road and Wigan means the paths Preston-Scotland and Piccadilly to Airport can still be used. Presumably Oxford Road will be added once TPE services go via Bolton. The TPE timetable changes for Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Newcastle are frankly more important than continuing Wigan's temporary express service.

Wigan passengers have enough trains to Manchester that they can use, plus if the inside info is true, they will have a Lancaster to Manchester via Wigan NW express service from Northern that they can use. Let TPE WCML trains be what they are supposed to be - express - not commuter rides.

Now that is interesting! Any idea if they will run by 319s or 323s? Hopefully Bolton will be wired by the time 331s arrive!
 
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WatcherZero

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The thing that surprised me with the magazine announcement was I was hearing the opposite from Northern representatives last week, that because of the weekend Bolton closures all the TPE services at weekends would continue to stop in Wigan till the line was electrified to provide capacity and take some of the pressure off bustitution and that Northern would be laying on a Manchester-Preston via Chat Moss shuttle at weekends too.

The TPE timetable changes for Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Newcastle are frankly more important than continuing Wigan's temporary express service.

You mean permanent, it is a franchise requirement for Northern, but they wont be in a position to operate it yet.
 

Francis

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Also if you are booking through to Aberdeen, Dundee, Perth or Inverness you will often get an itinerary routing you via Haymarket, and avoiding the awkward transfer from Glasgow Central to Queen Street.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Wigan passengers have enough trains to Manchester that they can use, plus if the inside info is true, they will have a Lancaster to Manchester via Wigan NW express service from Northern that they can use. Let TPE WCML trains be what they are supposed to be - express - not commuter rides.

If only this was true! The reason so many are using these "express" services between Wigan and Manchester is because the alternative direct service to Oxford Road and Piccadilly is itself very busy and completely packed in the peaks. With the ending of coal mining in the area there has been a long-term rise in commuting from the Wigan area to Manchester as that's where employment opportunities are greatest. Arguably the railway has only quite recently caught on to this. Of course this is not a situation unique to Wigan but it does illustrate the urgent need for additional capacity between Manchester itself and the wider City Region. The question is how this capacity can be provided in a cost-effective manner. Longer trains (which need suitably long platforms) would help but complete resignalling of the Atherton line to provide closer headways would also help; otherwise additional services have to find paths via Bolton or Chat Moss. No easy answers!
 

Senex

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...... but complete resignalling of the Atherton line to provide closer headways would also help; otherwise additional services have to find paths via Bolton or Chat Moss. No easy answers!
Re-quad the Atherton line to provide a genuinely fast route between Manchester and Wigan? (The SLs that were kept have the wiggle under the former flyover and then the curves round all the island platforms.)
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Re-quad the Atherton line to provide a genuinely fast route between Manchester and Wigan? (The SLs that were kept have the wiggle under the former flyover and then the curves round all the island platforms.)

I doubt that it would have a good BCR due to the relatively short distances being travelled by most passengers and of course the connection to the WCML is an awkward stretch of single line. There are also bridges to consider: one or two have definitely been rebuilt on the basis of a 2-track line. Other than that it's not an unreasonable idea!
 

Bletchleyite

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In the absence of Wigan, Preston is the interchange for Liverpool, however, so omitting it is far from ideal. It will also be an interchange for passengers from Bolton, Blackpool, Blackburn, and Wigan.
Omit Wigan by all means, just not sure omitting Preston as well would be sensible.

Missing Preston would be a silly idea, but having it u/s so it can't be used to travel to or from Manchester may be sensible. Even without enforcement numbers of passengers would reduce as it wouldn't show for that journey on the planners.
 

driver9000

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You could get away with missing out Preston . Not seen an 8 car set on a Glasgow for a long time .

The 04:22 Glasgow Central to Manchester Airport is booked to be an 8 car train as it is very busy from Preston to Manchester. On arrival at Manchester Airport it splits to allow the 10:00 to Edinburgh to be 8 coaches.
 

Mathew S

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Missing Preston would be a silly idea, but having it u/s so it can't be used to travel to or from Manchester may be sensible. Even without enforcement numbers of passengers would reduce as it wouldn't show for that journey on the planners.
Yes, I agree that's an excellent idea.
 

Mathew S

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I doubt that it would have a good BCR due to the relatively short distances being travelled by most passengers and of course the connection to the WCML is an awkward stretch of single line. There are also bridges to consider: one or two have definitely been rebuilt on the basis of a 2-track line. Other than that it's not an unreasonable idea!
One of those bridges being the M60/M61 motorway bridge. I'd suggest that alone might be enough to scupper such a plan.

The idea of reducing headways and allowing more trains to run might work (4tph is hardly stretching things to the limit now) but is there room through Salford Crescent to add extra services?
 

Shaw S Hunter

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One of those bridges being the M60/M61 motorway bridge. I'd suggest that alone might be enough to scupper such a plan.

The idea of reducing headways and allowing more trains to run might work (4tph is hardly stretching things to the limit now) but is there room through Salford Crescent to add extra services?

I can't offer a definitive answer to that one (maybe The Planner will) but when waiting at Salford Crescent there sometimes seem to be noticeable gaps between trains. The ability to fit everything round the flat junctions around the Ordsall triangle is probably the limiting factor but as enthusiasm amongst the decision makers for running services via the Windsor Link seems to be diminishing it might not be too big a problem. The headways on the Atherton line are due to some rather long block sections which were left unchanged when Absolute Block was replaced by Axle Counters.
 

Mathew S

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Please decide for yourself the level of accuracy and veracity you wish to ascribe to this, however I have the following information from TPE on Twitter:
Me: Do you know if your Manchester - Scotland services will still be stopping at Wigan from May? I think they were meant to be switching to running via Bolton, but I guess it's tough running electric trains with no electricity :)
TPE: Hi Mathew, I believe that the will be yes. ^MM
 
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Chester1

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One of those bridges being the M60/M61 motorway bridge. I'd suggest that alone might be enough to scupper such a plan.

The idea of reducing headways and allowing more trains to run might work (4tph is hardly stretching things to the limit now) but is there room through Salford Crescent to add extra services?

I can't offer a definitive answer to that one (maybe The Planner will) but when waiting at Salford Crescent there sometimes seem to be noticeable gaps between trains. The ability to fit everything round the flat junctions around the Ordsall triangle is probably the limiting factor but as enthusiasm amongst the decision makers for running services via the Windsor Link seems to be diminishing it might not be too big a problem. The headways on the Atherton line are due to some rather long block sections which were left unchanged when Absolute Block was replaced by Axle Counters.

We are off topic now but there is no capacity through the Castlefield corridor until Piccadilly platforms 15-16 are built (if they are). More services to or through Victoria might be possible. TfGM and Greater Manchester Combined Authority have earmarked the line for future tram train use connecting to Piccadilly and the Glossop line through a tunneled third city crossing.

It makes sense for Wigan to have an express service to Piccadilly by Northern now that TPE have shown there is a market and there being no immediate prospect of a fast electric service via Lostock. TPE really should try to avoid serving commuters if Northern can. It seems likely that there will be 2tph EMU express from Manchester to Wigan Northwestern - 1tph to Blackpool North and 1tph to Lancaster. Combined with Lostock and Atherton services that should be enough without TPE.
 

BMIFlyer

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I know, didn't mean to sound like I doubted you :)

Yes, it's okay, my apologies. Certain things won't be filtered to 'customer services' just yet until they are set in stone. It is why we see many generic responses currently and are informing customers of only a '2 week notice' booking period for advance fares for certain periods of the spring and summer, due to some hefty timetable planning currently being worked on. :)
 

Starmill

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Let TPE WCML trains be what they are supposed to be - express - not commuter rides.
To be honest most of this demand is due to TransPennine encouraging it specifically. In 2014 there was an information campaign at Wigan Wallgate and flyers everywhere telling people to go and use the new TransPennine services in order to relieve the Bolton route when capacity on that was reduced. TransPennine have pursuded an agressive strategey introducing APOD for short distance flows and dedicated fares almost everhwere they possibly can. Offering the cheapest walk-up fares for trips like Lancaster to Preston, Manchester to Manchester Airport etc has simply attracted the most short-hop passengers to the trains with the least capacity. All the while Manchester to Edinburgh tickets remain remarkably expensive :p
 

TBirdFrank

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Take a look at the service pattern. You can get from Waverley to Manchester as late as an eight o clock departure - albeit a midnight arrival.

On the west coast the last southbound is before 18.00 and so on down the line. You want a full day in Glasgow - fly or drive
 

Mathew S

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To be honest most of this demand is due to TransPennine encouraging it specifically.
That's one reason, but at the end of the day they are also far nicer trains to travel on, and it's a much faster service. Actually it feels faster than it is because it doesn't stop before MCO, compared with going via Bolton and Salford, but perception does matter.
 

Mathew S

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Take a look at the service pattern. You can get from Waverley to Manchester as late as an eight o clock departure - albeit a midnight arrival.

On the west coast the last southbound is before 18.00 and so on down the line. You want a full day in Glasgow - fly or drive
Actually there's a 2215 departure from Edinburgh arriving into Manchester at approximately 0200. It is possible to catch a Scotrail from Glasgow at 2113 and connect with that same TPE at Carlisle.

Conversely there is a direct service to Glasgow from Manchester far earlier in the morning than to Edinburgh, so swings and roundabouts.
 
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