• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Traffic commissioners and Hertfordshire

Status
Not open for further replies.

plebb11

On Moderation
Joined
26 Jun 2014
Messages
54
Location
Bedfordshire


Registration of Local Bus Services
On 1st August 2021 Hertfordshire County Council becomes the Bus Service Registration Authority for Hertfordshire, under the terms of the Intalink Enhanced Partnership using powers granted by the Bus Services Act 2017. The Council will regulate applications to register, vary or cancel local bus services that operate wholly within the county of Hertfordshire. For other services which operate cross-border, the Office of the Traffic Commissioner remains the registration authority.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

markymark2000

On Moderation
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
3,908
Location
Western Part of the UK

Registration of Local Bus Services​

On 1st August 2021 Hertfordshire County Council becomes the Bus Service Registration Authority for Hertfordshire, under the terms of the Intalink Enhanced Partnership using powers granted by the Bus Services Act 2017. The Council will regulate applications to register, vary or cancel local bus services that operate wholly within the county of Hertfordshire. For other services which operate cross-border, the Office of the Traffic Commissioner remains the registration authority.
To be fair, I've never heard of any registration applications being rejected and what exactly will a council do. Refuse to let someone cancel a route and then wait for the company to go bust running a loss making route?

Whoever regulates it, the same thing happens in the end. Surely this is just a change for the sake of change given there is already the mandatory consultation period with local authorities.
 

Man of Kent

Member
Joined
5 Jul 2018
Messages
674
To be fair, I've never heard of any registration applications being rejected and what exactly will a council do. Refuse to let someone cancel a route and then wait for the company to go bust running a loss making route?

Whoever regulates it, the same thing happens in the end. Surely this is just a change for the sake of change given there is already the mandatory consultation period with local authorities.
Under an Enhanced Partnership, operators must "give an undertaking that they will comply with the requirements of the EP that apply to that particular service. If the operator does not give the undertaking, the registration authority can refuse the registration."
Section 3.62 from the new EP guidance issued last week
www.gov.uk/government/publications/bus-services-act-2017-enhanced-partnership-creation
 

2192

Member
Joined
16 Aug 2020
Messages
372
Location
Derby UK
Would bus companies rather deal with a local authority or the traffic commissioners? Is either easier to work with?
 

markymark2000

On Moderation
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
3,908
Location
Western Part of the UK
Under an Enhanced Partnership, operators must "give an undertaking that they will comply with the requirements of the EP that apply to that particular service. If the operator does not give the undertaking, the registration authority can refuse the registration."
Section 3.62 from the new EP guidance issued last week
www.gov.uk/government/publications/bus-services-act-2017-enhanced-partnership-creation
I'm with you. Just a case of local authorities knowing their partnerships and ensuring it is stuck to whereas the Traffic Commissioner wouldn't know all the local partnerships so may miss something.
 

175mph

On Moderation
Joined
25 Jan 2016
Messages
669
I know in the past, the recommendation on here when operators let rogue drivers get away with early running has been to report it to the traffic commissioner, but in this case, are the council likely to care about services being run improperly like that?
 

Flange Squeal

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2012
Messages
1,401
I know in the past, the recommendation on here when operators let rogue drivers get away with early running has been to report it to the traffic commissioner, but in this case, are the council likely to care about services being run improperly like that?
If it's a tendered service that the council is paying money to the operator to provide, or a partnership they have helped specify or contribute towards, then I'd imagine they'd be very interested to hear about their supplier not performing in a compliant way. Especially if such contracts allow the council to issue a financial penalty to operators for poor performance. I guess an operator would also want to avoid too many complaints to the council, even on commercial routes, as a regular occurrence may then affect their chances of winning/retaining future tenders/contracts from the council (depending on how bids are judged in terms of cost/quality).
 

A0wen

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,748
The reality is Hertfordshire isn't particularly good bus operating territory - even back in NBC days London Country and United Counties struggled with it.

Post dereg and privatisation progressively what was London Country largely ended up under Arriva's control and even when the regulators investigated the sale of Sovereign to Arriva by Blazefield, none of the other large operating groups objected because none of them are looking at an expansion into Herts.

There isn't the "competition" of two or three companies running large commercial networks, so not sure why HCC have taken this step, unless they're hoping that the Home Counties will become franchised in the way London is.
 

Citistar

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2017
Messages
486
Location
The Magical Mendips
Would bus companies rather deal with a local authority or the traffic commissioners? Is either easier to work with?
The TC's Traffic Area Office is reasonable enough, but they're only vetting registrations against their set of expectations. Local Transport Authorities are less consistent; some will be helpful to all parties, some will be building their own empires and have no interest in operators who want to add something to the network.

In my humble opinion, the wrong aspects of the industry are being regulated. If each area had a single ticketing scheme which replaced all single operator ticketing, most of the issues of big operator monopolies disappear and smaller operators can offer some genuine innovation to the network rather than everyone chasing the same routes. Very, very few local authorities have the knowledge or skills to plan a public transport network which would serve the public better than a commercial, passenger demand driven network, particularly when they're being forced to listen to elected members who will be acting in the interests of a tiny number of people in their ward. The best performing networks are driven by demand, not politics.
 

johncrossley

Established Member
Joined
30 Mar 2021
Messages
3,310
Location
London
Very, very few local authorities have the knowledge or skills to plan a public transport network which would serve the public better than a commercial, passenger demand driven network, particularly when they're being forced to listen to elected members who will be acting in the interests of a tiny number of people in their ward.

Clearly they've been denied the opportunity to plan networks for 35 years, so they won't have the experience. But how do you get experience without actually being given the opportunity?

The best performing networks are driven by demand, not politics.

There is plenty of demand, just that public transport has failed to attract much of it in most areas, hence the rationale for change. There are plenty of successful networks that are carefully planned by publicly accountable organisations. I'd be surprised if they weren't the majority in the world.
 

Citistar

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2017
Messages
486
Location
The Magical Mendips
Clearly they've been denied the opportunity to plan networks for 35 years, so they won't have the experience. But how do you get experience without actually being given the opportunity?

You go on a recruitment drive, much as every local transport authority has done when faced with Bus Back Better. Or engage with consultancy companies. That wastes plenty of the money available straight away.

The problem i have with our existing "publicly accountable organisations" is that they are far too easily swayed by political movements (often for imaginary passengers) which are a distraction from actually getting the job done and passengers moving. After 11 years of running local bus services, I have no reason to believe that most would be able to take pragmatic, progressive decisions.
 

johncrossley

Established Member
Joined
30 Mar 2021
Messages
3,310
Location
London
After 11 years of running local bus services, I have no reason to believe that most would be able to take pragmatic, progressive decisions.

Are these 11 years in Great Britain outside London? If so, then decisions during that period would be almost exclusively made by the bus companies.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
20,613
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Are these 11 years in Great Britain outside London? If so, then decisions during that period would be almost exclusively made by the bus companies.
If you are familiar with @Citistar and his blog, you'd be aware that he has operated outside London, running his own business, and has vast experience in dealing with local authorities, of which some are absolutely hopeless.

What is your professional experience of bus operation?
 

johncrossley

Established Member
Joined
30 Mar 2021
Messages
3,310
Location
London
If you are familiar with @Citistar and his blog, you'd be aware that he has operated outside London and has vast experience in dealing with local authorities, of which some are absolutely hopeless.

What is your professional experience of bus operation?

None, but I live somewhere where politicians run buses. Despite various hiccups I believe that London buses have overall benefited from political interference, if you want to put it that way. Given that buses outside London have been run by the bus companies with almost complete freedom and impunity, the operators (and by extension their management) should take at least some responsibility for the end result.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
20,613
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
None, but I live somewhere where politicians run buses. Despite various hiccups I believe that London buses have overall benefited from political interference, if you want to put it that way. Given that buses outside London have been run by the bus companies with almost complete freedom and impunity, the operators (and by extension their management) should take at least some responsibility for the end result.
The fact is that London's Buses receive £722m of subsidy per year - an astronomical figure compared to the provinces. London has not been immune to the vagaries of politicians - removal of bendibuses and the introduction of the Borismaster has wasted millions. Livingstone truly had an altruistic approach to public transport but it wasn't the case with Johnson or Khan.

@Citistar has got the t-shirt having seen, at first hand, exactly what it is like to have to work with local authorities, and the various political machinations that bare no observance to the realities of providing good bus services. You have none.

He's seen the cluelessness of North Somerset, and Bath and North East Somerset, and services messed about with no consideration as to what passengers want or need but to bolster the personal profiles of certain politicians. More money for public transport - yes. More politicians involved in public transport - not based on the track record of decisions taken by Cornwall, Powy, Northamptonshire, Cumbria......

And that's before we get onto local politicos introducing clean air zones into places like Sheffield and Bath without any restrictions on private car use but putting the burden onto local bus services in terms of emissions controls.
 
Last edited:

johncrossley

Established Member
Joined
30 Mar 2021
Messages
3,310
Location
London
The fact is that London's Buses receive £722m of subsidy per year - an astronomical figure compared to the provinces. London has not been immune to the vagaries of politicians - removal of bendibuses and the introduction of the Borismaster has wasted millions. Livingstone truly had an altruistic approach to public transport but it wasn't the case with Johnson or Khan.

@Citistar has got the t-shirt having seen, at first hand, exactly what it is like to have to work with local authorities, and the various political machinations that bare no observance to the realities of providing good bus services. You have none.

He's seen the cluelessness of North Somerset, and Bath and North East Somerset, and services messed about with no consideration as to what passengers want or need but to bolster the personal profiles of certain politicians. More money for public transport - yes. More politicians involved in public transport - not based on the track record of decisions taken by Cornwall, Powy, Northamptonshire, Cumbria......

And that's before we get onto local politicos introducing clean air zones into places like Sheffield and Bath without any restrictions on private car use but putting the burden onto local bus services in terms of emissions controls.

London may not have had any subsidy in the first place if it wasn't for TfL and the invention of the mayor. It may not have had a congestion charge or a fare freeze or a Hopper Fare without having a mayor. It is crazy to suggest that politicians should have no say in transport. Should the Mayor of New York not have any say in transport? What about local politicians in Paris or Copenhagen? Public money is being spent to it is only right that there is some accountability. The bus companies have got away with it as long as they could operate without subsidy, now that subsidy is required because of Covid it is a different scenario. If officers in local authorities are inept, then they should be allowed to hire top people. However, people don't even want to pay for it!

You go on a recruitment drive, much as every local transport authority has done when faced with Bus Back Better. Or engage with consultancy companies. That wastes plenty of the money available straight away.

I take it that you think that bus companies and their managers don't have any responsibility for the results of bus deregulation and it it all or mostly the fault of the local authorities?
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,625
Compare and contrast the commercially- and politically-driven bus Services here in Newport.

Stagecoach are pretty much back to pre-Covid timetables.

Council owned Newport Transport are still running hourly at best on most routes and their buses are all back in the depot by 8pm. This despite grants for new electric buses and charging infrastructure from the UK Government and large sums from the Welsh Government.

Then we have the demand-unresponsive 'Fflecsi' service sponsored by the Welsh Government where you have to take pot luck on whether there will be a bus to get you to work or an appointment on time. Pre-bookings not allowed.
 

johncrossley

Established Member
Joined
30 Mar 2021
Messages
3,310
Location
London
Council owned Newport Transport

They may be council owned but only at arms length and they still have to operate as a commercial entity in a deregulated environment. It is nothing like TfL where private companies are paid to run buses to a set specification.
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,625
They may be council owned but only at arms length and they still have to operate as a commercial entity in a deregulated environment. It is nothing like TfL where private companies are paid to run buses to a set specification.
The majority of the Directors are Councillors and the Board presumably specify the services. Stagecoach only run to neighbouring towns. All routes wholly within the city are NT operated. If it was a truly commercial operation it would have gone bust.
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,625
Whilst investment may be allowed in some circumstances I'm pretty sure direct subsidy of bus services isn't allowed under deregulation.
I'm not qualified to determine whether anything in the accounts counts as a subsidy but on the face of it NT doesn't appear to be making a profit or even breaking even.

Link here

 

M803UYA

Member
Joined
24 May 2020
Messages
683
Location
Under my stone....
I'm not qualified to determine whether anything in the accounts counts as a subsidy but on the face of it NT doesn't appear to be making a profit or even breaking even.

Link here

Like it's equally poorly run municipal neighbour Cardiff, the company has heavy debts and a heavy pension liability, which makes the company loss making. Like Cardiff, it is dependent upon the council for support without which it would go out of business. The experiences of Halton should be a wake up call as if an operation that size can go out of business when the money dries up, so can the others.
There is no issue with a business having debts, lots do, but the question of a going concern is 'can it meet those debts as and when they fall due?' - if they cannot pay their bills, so to speak, then they're insolvent.
Historically, municipal companies didn't run to make a profit, rather they operated to provide a transport service to the people of the area. So, even if the company was loss making, in the current deregulated climate, so as long as the council continues to provide financial support. If there was a change in control of the council, say it became a Conservative run council instead of a Labour one, then you could see that support ending.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
20,613
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
London may not have had any subsidy in the first place if it wasn't for TfL and the invention of the mayor. It may not have had a congestion charge or a fare freeze or a Hopper Fare without having a mayor. It is crazy to suggest that politicians should have no say in transport. Should the Mayor of New York not have any say in transport? What about local politicians in Paris or Copenhagen? Public money is being spent to it is only right that there is some accountability. The bus companies have got away with it as long as they could operate without subsidy, now that subsidy is required because of Covid it is a different scenario. If officers in local authorities are inept, then they should be allowed to hire top people. However, people don't even want to pay for it!



I take it that you think that bus companies and their managers don't have any responsibility for the results of bus deregulation and it it all or mostly the fault of the local authorities?

London may not have had the subsidy but for politicians? London is certainly a place apart but would, for instance, the mayor of Bristol or a Metro Mayor have any hope of securing such funding?

As I stated, explicitly, Ken Livingstone did have the courage to introduce the congestion charge. Then you had Boris who reduced the size of the charging zone, then wasted money on over-specified double deckers as a vanity project, and then you have Khan whose Hopper fare (a political issue again) has exacerbated the finance issues at TfL so that services are now being cut. Given the sheer amount of money that London received and lavished on bus services, it would be almost inconceivable that ridership would not have increased even excluding the particular economic and demographic changes that have also helped. Politicians are part and parcel of normal life and their role varies from place to place. I'm no fan of Ken Livingstone but I appreciate what he achieved in terms of bus improvements.

However, you see the same happening in Brighton - no need for public control there? However, all too often, we see political expediency and grandstanding being the driver as opposed to clear cut, sensible and impartial decision making. Why else remove bendy buses and leave them rotting in various yards at whatever cost, as Boris enacted? Why else would Andy Burnham say that there would be no congestion charge in Manchester that would impact private car use? Ditto for Bath and Sheffield who have decided that you can have as many cars flooding their respective city centres but that a Euro V bus is beyond the pale.... That's before we get onto places like Cornwall who having secured a bounty of cash from central government, have squandered great sums on obscure rural routes whilst being at the centre of a new world whereby two networks now operated (commercial and supported) but that the latter (which Cornwall Council pays for and specifies) refuses to acknowledge the existence of the other that carries the vast majority of passengers across the main routes.

I might also add, for the benefit of @Citistar, the litany of poor decisions from North Somerset Council. These are manifest but the most objectionable was the creation of a network of coach services from North Somerset into North Bristol where c.£3m was spent over 4 years. High profile and good for photo ops, yet one wonders whether some decent bus priority in Weston super Mare might have been a better use of public money?

Local authorities should be allowed to hire top people - all well and good until the salary of £x,000 is splashed all over the local news by a rival politician seeking to make capital. As someone who has worked with a great number of public sector bodies, I can say that the quality of individuals (whilst well-meaning and pleasant) in the public sector is lower, and that is compounded by the various rules, checks and balances, that they have to adhere to.

Like it's equally poorly run municipal neighbour Cardiff, the company has heavy debts and a heavy pension liability, which makes the company loss making. Like Cardiff, it is dependent upon the council for support without which it would go out of business. The experiences of Halton should be a wake up call as if an operation that size can go out of business when the money dries up, so can the others.
There is no issue with a business having debts, lots do, but the question of a going concern is 'can it meet those debts as and when they fall due?' - if they cannot pay their bills, so to speak, then they're insolvent.
Historically, municipal companies didn't run to make a profit, rather they operated to provide a transport service to the people of the area. So, even if the company was loss making, in the current deregulated climate, so as long as the council continues to provide financial support. If there was a change in control of the council, say it became a Conservative run council instead of a Labour one, then you could see that support ending.
Very good points.

The fact is that Newport and Cardiff rely on public money to support them. In the case of Newport, it is also a particularly archaic and unimpressive concern. As you say, once funding becomes an issue that the authority no longer wishes to fund (or is unable to) then you have either a situation like Thamesdown (sold off) or Halton (closed down).
 

johncrossley

Established Member
Joined
30 Mar 2021
Messages
3,310
Location
London
London may not have had the subsidy but for politicians? London is certainly a place apart but would, for instance, the mayor of Bristol or a Metro Mayor have any hope of securing such funding?

As I stated, explicitly, Ken Livingstone did have the courage to introduce the congestion charge. Then you had Boris who reduced the size of the charging zone, then wasted money on over-specified double deckers as a vanity project, and then you have Khan whose Hopper fare (a political issue again) has exacerbated the finance issues at TfL so that services are now being cut. Given the sheer amount of money that London received and lavished on bus services, it would be almost inconceivable that ridership would not have increased even excluding the particular economic and demographic changes that have also helped. Politicians are part and parcel of normal life and their role varies from place to place. I'm no fan of Ken Livingstone but I appreciate what he achieved in terms of bus improvements.

However, you see the same happening in Brighton - no need for public control there? However, all too often, we see political expediency and grandstanding being the driver as opposed to clear cut, sensible and impartial decision making. Why else remove bendy buses and leave them rotting in various yards at whatever cost, as Boris enacted? Why else would Andy Burnham say that there would be no congestion charge in Manchester that would impact private car use? Ditto for Bath and Sheffield who have decided that you can have as many cars flooding their respective city centres but that a Euro V bus is beyond the pale.... That's before we get onto places like Cornwall who having secured a bounty of cash from central government, have squandered great sums on obscure rural routes whilst being at the centre of a new world whereby two networks now operated (commercial and supported) but that the latter (which Cornwall Council pays for and specifies) refuses to acknowledge the existence of the other that carries the vast majority of passengers across the main routes.

I might also add, for the benefit of @Citistar, the litany of poor decisions from North Somerset Council. These are manifest but the most objectionable was the creation of a network of coach services from North Somerset into North Bristol where c.£3m was spent over 4 years. High profile and good for photo ops, yet one wonders whether some decent bus priority in Weston super Mare might have been a better use of public money?

Local authorities should be allowed to hire top people - all well and good until the salary of £x,000 is splashed all over the local news by a rival politician seeking to make capital. As someone who has worked with a great number of public sector bodies, I can say that the quality of individuals (whilst well-meaning and pleasant) in the public sector is lower, and that is compounded by the various rules, checks and balances, that they have to adhere to.

So are other countries wrong in having mayors etc. in charge of transport? Should the Mayor of London and TfL be scrapped? Even if they were scrapped, control would revert to central Government, so politicians would still be in charge. Should we just give public money to private bus companies without any say in how it is spent and no ability to sack an unsatisfactory operator? The days where bus companies do what they want without any come back are now over.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
20,613
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
So are other countries wrong in having mayors etc. in charge of transport? Should the Mayor of London and TfL be scrapped? Even if they were scrapped, control would revert to central Government, so politicians would still be in charge. Should we just give public money to private bus companies without any say in how it is spent and no ability to sack an unsatisfactory operator? The days where bus companies do what they want without any come back are now over.
That's not how rational discussion works. You don't say "if you say X, then you must believe the opposite". Sorry to impinge on your ideological purity with all of the many examples that I cited that you have failed to acknowledge.

Perhaps a look down the A23 perhaps indicates how public and private sectors should work together in partnership? As ever, it requires vision from both sides.
 

johncrossley

Established Member
Joined
30 Mar 2021
Messages
3,310
Location
London
That's not how rational discussion works. You don't say "if you say X, then you must believe the opposite". Sorry to impinge on your ideological purity with all of the many examples that I cited that you have failed to acknowledge.

Perhaps a look down the A23 perhaps indicates how public and private sectors should work together in partnership? As ever, it requires vision from both sides.

I could say the same about your comments. You say "look at how bad X, Y and Z authorities are" and therefore come to the conclusion having authorities in charge of transport would be bad, even though A, B and C authorities are clearly very good.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
20,613
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
I could say the same about your comments. You say "look at how bad X, Y and Z authorities are" and therefore come to the conclusion having authorities in charge of transport would be bad, even though A, B and C authorities are clearly very good.
Except I'm not adopting a ideologically pure view, unlike yourself. As I said, Livingstone did some good things but a number of those were undone by Johnson on grounds of populism and political expediency.

And I think I pointed out Brighton and Hove as an example of where the local authority and local bus companies have effectively worked together to a common goal.....or did you miss that too?
 

johncrossley

Established Member
Joined
30 Mar 2021
Messages
3,310
Location
London
Except I'm not adopting a ideologically pure view, unlike yourself. As I said, Livingstone did some good things but a number of those were undone by Johnson on grounds of populism and political expediency.

And I think I pointed out Brighton and Hove as an example of where the local authority and local bus companies have effectively worked together to a common goal.....or did you miss that too?

You (twice) missed out answering whether bus companies and their managers should take responsibility for the effect of deregulation.

As far as I can see, Brighton still has deregulation and the council has no say in the routes, fares etc.

You clearly have a bias against a publicly accountable system along the lines of TfL and you haven't put forward an alternative for London, or other cities where they don't currently have deregulation.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
20,613
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
You (twice) missed out answering whether bus companies and their managers should take responsibility for the effect of deregulation.
Only because I thought it was some rhetorical point; I didn't think it was an actual question. Let me answer that point, so handsomely and fulsomely, so that you feel I have given it its full attention.

Deregulation was a political initiative. It was born of free market economics against the background of high levels of direct and indirect subsidy and collapsing passenger figures from the mid 1950s until the early 1980s. As you are doubtless aware, passenger figures had declined markedly since the 1950s for a number of reasons. Many were socio-economic - people were wealthier so cars were more affordable, the onset of television (albeit only on 2/3 channels) saw evening travel decline as cinemas closed, and even the sale of refrigerators and growth of supermarkets impacted the frequency of shopping trips. Arguably, bus companies were slow to react to this but in many ways, they were hamstrung by the licensing system of the time.

So by the 1980s, you had a largely nationalised bus industry either via the National Bus Company, Scottish Bus Group and the various PTEs and municipalities, with archaic ways of working and a declining passenger base. So the Conservative Government decided that deregulation would be enacted following some trial areas in Hereford and Cumbria, via the 1985 Transport Act. Therefore, you had bus companies that were being forced into a brave new world. However, especially with the NBC, this was compounded by the fact that at the very time of deregulation, they were also being privatised by open sale; even the SBG companies had only a relatively short window before the privatisation process was forced on them.

Undoubtedly, mistakes were made then by bus company managers but also by the very politicians who were involved in the process at the time. Unfortunately, whilst you had management teams and purchasers who were good custodians, as well as Caldaire or Trent or Stagecoach or East Yorkshire, you had ATL Holdings or Drawlane who were less so. Since then, it is again fair to say that mistakes have been made, notably by First but also as we're seeing now with Arriva.

However, these things don't take place in a political or social vacuum. Firms don't want to lose money nor lose customers. However, think of the things that have happened... well, fuel prices going up after a Gulf War or two (which incidentally saw VAT go up), increases in insurance taxes, the legislation on DDA, the imposition of ENCTS and then the reduction in spending on both remuneration of those to operators coupled with the swingeing austerity cuts to local authority budgets.

And you think that the problem sits squarely with the operators....and that more political intervention is required?

As far as I can see, Brighton still has deregulation and the council has no say in the routes, fares etc.

You clearly have a bias against a publicly accountable system along the lines of TfL and you haven't put forward an alternative for London, or other cities where they don't currently have deregulation.
Brighton is actually the model that does work. You have a local authority that has brokered a deal with operators that says "we will give you the access and priority to operate effectively". They reduce on-street parking and use that space for improved bus priority. In return, the companies respond with continued investment and service development. That can be underpinned by legal means as we've seen in Leeds where bus priority and new vehicle investment are linked.

I have no bias against public accountability and recognise the role of central and local government. As I've said about Brighton (but it also holds for Bristol, Nottingham and Reading) that they have a clear role to play. However, it takes enlightenment from both sides.

Instead, you have this classic "class war" rubbish of "sticking it to the man" and "we own this" that solves nothing. A publicly owned bus is no better than a privately run bus if the underlying issue of road congestion isn't solved.

Now, I think I've answered that pretty comprehensively so please, no more straw man arguments.
 

johncrossley

Established Member
Joined
30 Mar 2021
Messages
3,310
Location
London
However, these things don't take place in a political or social vacuum. Firms don't want to lose money nor lose customers. However, think of the things that have happened... well, fuel prices going up after a Gulf War or two (which incidentally saw VAT go up), increases in insurance taxes, the legislation on DDA, the imposition of ENCTS and then the reduction in spending on both remuneration of those to operators coupled with the swingeing austerity cuts to local authority budgets.

And you think that the problem sits squarely with the operators....and that more political intervention is required?

Fair enough, companies have external pressures to deal which are out of their control. If they are suffering so badly, it would be understandable if they decided to exit the market. But in fact they still advocate the current system and even when there is an opportunity for an easy way out, for example Manchester franchising, they actively oppose it, so much so that they have even gone to court over it.

Instead, you have this classic "class war" rubbish of "sticking it to the man" and "we own this" that solves nothing. A publicly owned bus is no better than a privately run bus if the underlying issue of road congestion isn't solved.

Now, I think I've answered that pretty comprehensively so please, no more straw man arguments.

I don't think anyone here (well not me anyway) is advocating a publicly owned bus. There is quite a bit of evidence that privately owned buses like in London and in other countries is preferable to a fully state owned and run system, certainly in terms of value for money.

Thank you for answering the first question. How about addressing my other question i.e. what should be done about London and other cities where there is no deregulation?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top