Train companies claiming to have "longer carriages"

[devonexpress]

This would be remarkably expensive for the government, given the financially weak nature of the routes they would be working on. I'm in favour of improvements to service, and large government spending, but this idea comes around frequently and seems to me to be a bit of a leapfrog.

Not if you buy 802s which are much cheaper than Class 800s. Also the advert at the top is poorly worded, just means they will try to cut some services to allow for more double voyagers.

 

[221129]

Not if you buy 802s which are much cheaper than Class 800s.

Source please?

 

[PG]

Will this idea never die?

Pretty sure we'll still be discussing it long after the Voyagers have been turned into razor blades...

 

[221129]

just means they will try to cut some services to allow for more double voyagers.

No. It just means they won't reinstate a full timetable.

 

[swt_passenger]

I recall reading in a recent issue of Modern Railways that upon withdrawal of the Avanti Voyagers they could use one carriage from each set for modification by adding a pantograph and then add these carriages into each XC set. Thus simultaneously reducing the use of diesel under-the-wires and adding a bit (though probably not enough) of additional capacity.
Basically Project Thor without building new carriages.

Given the protracted case of the HST short-set modifications, admittedly involving more bespoke work to older vehicles, it would be a brave person who sanctioned such a course of action over procurement of new stock.

A Bombardier rep “would say that, wouldn’t he”. I don’t think it means it’s at all likely...

 

[PG]

A Bombardier rep “would say that, wouldn’t he”. I don’t think it means it’s at all likely...

I think we've more chance of seeing bionic duckweed powered trains than Project Thor materialising...

 

[dk1]

I think we've more chance of seeing bionic duckweed powered trains than Project Thor materialising...

My thoughts too. I was a huge fan initially but they are getting too long in the tooth now. Just order a shed load of new bi-modes & be done with it.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Are XC supposed to get cascaded stock from EMR and AWC, when their Hitachi replacements arrive, than brand new?

 

[221129]

Are XC supposed to get cascaded stock from EMR and AWC, when their Hitachi replacements arrive, than brand new?

Nothing has been decided yet.

 

[david1212]

Am I misunderstanding here? Why would you add an additional coach to a [diesel] Voyager that has a pantograph?

To turn it into a bi-mode.

Will this idea never die?

While the other way around much older 319's are being made bi-mode by adding diesel engines although what should have been straightforward is years behind.

Back in 2007 it was not long since the last 222 was built so easier to set up and build more body shells.

Coventry / Birmingham - Manchester is electric and now south to Bromsgrove too. Likewise Leeds / Doncaster to Edinburgh and Glasgow.

 

[david1212]

Agreed. Just get an order in for 80x. They are clearly perfect for XC. And because they're a proven design they can be in service quickly - just have to train the staff.

..... but with some decent seats. Voyager seats are not great compared to HST's as originally built but far far better than those in 80x units. I've only done a couple of short trips but enough to understand the comments / complaints.

 

[Bletchleyite]

..... but with some decent seats. Voyager seats are not great compared to HST's as but far far better than those in 80x units. I've only done a couple of short trips but enough to understand the comments / complaints.

Avanti plan to certify a new seat design for 125mph in new stock (presently I believe the Sophia is the only one) so presumably that could be used.

 

[irish_rail]

Avanti plan to certify a new seat design for 125mph in new stock (presently I believe the Sophia is the only one) so presumably that could be used.

So a first group franchise is going to put (potentially) decent seats into it's 80x for Avanti on journeys generally of a couple of hours or so, yet , an alternative first group franchise with first specified 802s has to make do with fainsa seating on services with journey times of up to over 5 hours ( and typically circa 3 hours)!!!!!
Surely the GWR 802s should go to Avanti and the more comfortable stuff be diverted to GWR due to the longer journey times on the London to Penzance route??? Or are north Wales , Chester and Liverpool folk somehow special?????.....

 

[superalbs]

Avanti plan to certify a new seat design for 125mph in new stock (presently I believe the Sophia is the only one) so presumably that could be used.

Source?

 

[david1212]

So GWR 80x seats are Fainsa, that says it all....

Back now at least 10 years ago I had a day trip on a fairly new ( road ) coach with Fainsa seats that were awful. Everybody complained. For the next trip with the same operator an older coach was used but far better seats.

 

[Energy]

So a first group franchise is going to put (potentially) decent seats into it's 80x for Avanti on journeys generally of a couple of hours or so, yet , an alternative first group franchise with first specified 802s has to make do with fainsa seating on services with journey times of up to over 5 hours ( and typically circa 3 hours)!!!!!
Surely the GWR 802s should go to Avanti and the more comfortable stuff be diverted to GWR due to the longer journey times on the London to Penzance route??? Or are north Wales , Chester and Liverpool folk somehow special?????.....

The majority of GWR IETs were speccified by the DfT, not First Group and the 802s are meant to be a similar customer experience to the 800s. It also seems a pointless excercise to send GWR units to Avanti and send new units to GWR especially as the GWR units aren't what Avanti want, the best option is to fit new seats/seat cushions to the GWR sets. Also designing a seat takes time, GWR would likely not have time to design a completely new seat for their 802 as they needed them fairly quickly as 800s weren't suitable for the cornwall and devon routes and they needed to replace the HSTs on these routes fairly soon.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Source?

That they're certifying a new seat? I believe it's in the bid docs.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Electric Voyagers are a great idea except these train designers seem to keep forgetting something...

There isnt enough power in the OHLE to sustain TPEs switch to electric so we still have diesel running under the wires.

Oops! XD

 

[class 9]

Electric Voyagers are a great idea except these train designers seem to keep forgetting something...

There isnt enough power in the OHLE to sustain TPEs switch to electric so we still have diesel running under the wires.

Oops! XD

Work is underway to upgrade the power supply between Newcastle & Edinburgh so is only temporary.

 

[rebmcr]

If they fitted vertical mirrors to the interior end vestibule walls that'd give the impression of longer carriages

Like the mockup half-T68 in the Manchester Transport Museum.

 

[PG]

Aye, too right, welcome to Britain, this train will shortly be switching to diesel as we've not got enough electricity for all of them!

Work is underway to upgrade the power supply between Newcastle & Edinburgh so is only temporary

Temporary for another couple of years IIRC, and I'm not sure if that takes into account First's OA operation (due to commence in <18 months) which will be only electric so we may still end up with other operators bi-modes chugging down the ECML on diesel

 

[SuperNova]

Agreed. Just get an order in for 80x. They are clearly perfect for XC. And because they're a proven design they can be in service quickly - just have to train the staff.

Given Hitachi's abysmal record at the minute - I'm not sure they'd be in service quickly or reliably.

 

[class 9]

Aye, too right, welcome to Britain, this train will shortly be switching to diesel as we've not got enough electricity for all of them!


Temporary for another couple of years IIRC, and I'm not sure if that takes into account First's OA operation (due to commence in <18 months) which will be only electric so we may still end up with other operators bi-modes chugging down the ECML on diesel

Search EC power upgrade phase 2, Bawtry-Edinburgh.
Im sure future increased use of electric traction will be factored in.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That they're certifying a new seat? I believe it's in the bid docs.

Isn't the new seat primarily for refurbed Pendolinos, the seats of which are 20-ish years old (except the 2012 build)?
They may also get fitted in the new AT300s but that's a much smaller fleet.

 

[tbtc]

How many xc services will now be formed of a 4 car voyager? Social distancing on one of those going forward will certainly be interesting....

In an ideal world, xc would take on some of the many stored HSTs , but oh no wait that can't happen. So potentially lives will be lost by covid spread because of (in my view) over the top disability discrimination measures.

I don't want to get in the way of your alarmist/hysterical suggestion... but there's the inconvenient fact that sluggish HSTs can't match Voyager acceleration therefore wouldn't be able to be slotted into other diagrams very easily (without shaving off the engineering allowances and therefore creating significant chances for services to run late).

But I've tried to explain this several times on here and there's apparently no stopping the nostalgists (especially now they can crowbar in the current health situation)

Not if you buy 802s which are much cheaper than Class 800s. Also the advert at the top is poorly worded, just means they will try to cut some services to allow for more double voyagers.

Source please?

I presume that the idea is along the lines of the 802s being a simple contract (rather than the "full package" that Hitatchi provide as part of the 802 contract, plus the understandable situation that the development costs being recouped in the initial order mean that subsequent IET300s can be produced at a lower net cost (i.e. the first batch bore the R&D)?

So a first group franchise is going to put (potentially) decent seats into it's 80x for Avanti on journeys generally of a couple of hours or so, yet , an alternative first group franchise with first specified 802s has to make do with fainsa seating on services with journey times of up to over 5 hours ( and typically circa 3 hours)!!!!!

Where are you getting the idea that three hour journeys are the norm on XC services? There's huge churn at each major city that they serve.

There seems a misconception that, just because a train runs from Aberdeen to Penzance, this is somehow a "Normal" journey (rather than the same seat being occupied a dozen different times during the train's journey) - unfortunately this clouds discussion over XC services on here

 

[MotCO]

Given Hitachi's abysmal record at the minute - I'm not sure they'd be in service quickly or reliably.

Rightly or wrongly, I'm under the impression from this thread that XC services do not generate sufficient revenue to justify new trains. Therefore, if there is a long lead time to receive new orders, can some new trains be ordered to replace some of the earlier 80xs, and the older trains (and hence more depreciated = lower cost) transferred to XC when this new order is eventually received.

 

[43096]

I don't want to get in the way of your alarmist/hysterical suggestion... but there's the inconvenient fact that sluggish HSTs can't match Voyager acceleration therefore wouldn't be able to be slotted into other diagrams very easily (without shaving off the engineering allowances and therefore creating significant chances for services to run late).

But I've tried to explain this several times on here and there's apparently no stopping the nostalgists (especially now they can crowbar in the current health situation)

A 5-car 221 has a power:weight ratio of around 12.6hp/tonne (based on the slugged back 700hp rating that has been quoted)
A 2+6 HST has a power:weight ratio of around 12.5hp/tonne

That is as near as makes no difference. The HST also offers at least 100 more seats due to the extra vehicle and its vastly better use of interior space.

Your point doesn't really stand up to scrutiny, no matter how many times you quote it.

 

[221129]

A 5-car 221 has a power:weight ratio of around 12.6hp/tonne (based on the slugged back 700hp rating that has been quoted)
A 2+6 HST has a power:weight ratio of around 12.5hp/tonne

That is as near as makes no difference. The HST also offers at least 100 more seats due to the extra vehicle and its vastly better use of interior space.

Your point doesn't really stand up to scrutiny, no matter how many times you quote it.

Except XC HSTs are 2+7 and there is no way they are going to knock out a vehicle in each set just to run them in Voyager paths. There is no need.

 

[43096]

Except XC HSTs are 2+7 and there is no way they are going to knock out a vehicle in each set just to run them in Voyager paths. There is no need.

Agreed, but if you take more sets on, then a uniform 2+6 fleet would make sense. Hypothetical now, because I can't see more HSTs being an option given the availability of plenty of 221s and 222s in the near future.

 

[221129]

Agreed, but if you take more sets on, then a uniform 2+6 fleet would make sense. Hypothetical now, because I can't see more HSTs being an option given the availability of plenty of 221s and 222s in the near future.

Indeed, but you also don't need to worry about pathing a HST into a Voyager path anyway as there are enough weekday Voyager runs with a HST pathing so can easily slot a HST onto one of those diagrams without needing to worry about pathing.