• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Train companies claiming to have "longer carriages"

Status
Not open for further replies.

nigelsporne

Member
Joined
20 Dec 2012
Messages
91
Yes this is correct. XC are due to get the centre carriages from the 3 car 170s currently with West Midlands upon introduction of the 196s. These would then be added to XC 2 car units. Surely it would make sense just to swap XC 2 car units for WM 3 car units? The 170s on XC were under normal circumstances, running at capacity with many people standing especially at peak times.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,791
Yes this is correct. XC are due to get the centre carriages from the 3 car 170s currently with West Midlands upon introduction of the 196s. These would then be added to XC 2 car units. Surely it would make sense just to swap XC 2 car units for WM 3 car units? The 170s on XC were under normal circumstances, running at capacity with many people standing especially at peak times.

No, this has already been discussed. If you swap the units over, you have to install first class in the WM sets for use on XC, there may be differences in the way they are set up. With the current plan, you only have to make changes to six carriages, not 30.
 

Stephen Lee

On Moderation
Joined
7 Jul 2019
Messages
675
No, this has already been discussed. If you swap the units over, you have to install first class in the WM sets for use on XC, there may be differences in the way they are set up. With the current plan, you only have to make changes to six carriages, not 30.
What about GTR-SN class 171s or Scottish 170s(subjected to their replacements), those have 1st class so they can move to XC when they have replacements
 

221129

Established Member
Joined
21 Mar 2011
Messages
6,520
Location
Sunny Scotland
what do you mean.......
Apart from the fact that the units mentioned are not available and are unlikely to be for some time, they would still need a lot of work doing to get the to the Standard required before putting them into service. So swapping them will just lead to loads of money spent for no reason.
 

Purple Orange

On Moderation
Joined
26 Dec 2019
Messages
3,438
Location
The North
You have to look at the wider franchise picture (although franchises are toast now anyway).

XC was refranchised in 2007 to Arriva, and that deal with DfT is still in place (with extensions and direct awards).
It has never had the scope to radically change its rolling stock, just tinkering round the edges.
During that period it has been mostly loss-making but has gradually got to about par - nothing like the premiums of other IC franchises.
A new franchise was due to start about now but has been put on hold until the Williams review process has concluded.
No contracts are in place for new trains.

TPE was refranchised to First in 2015, on a business plan which delivered premiums to DfT (from being heavily loss-making previously).
That plan called for 3 new fleets of trains, now largely delivered.
However their performance has collapsed and First Group are paying the penalty to the tune of at least £100 million to keep going.

All bets are now off for both franchises going forward, but at least we can see Voyagers/Meridians coming free soon from Avanti/EMR, which we couldn't before.
Re-equipment previously has been hide-bound by the lack of suitable diesel trains (125mph).

This is kind of what I’m attempting to understand. Are the franchises not as profitable because of the premiums promised to the government or is the underlying operation unprofitable? I.e. let’s say a TOC is obliged to pay the government £50m per annum, but is operating at a loss of £20m per annum. Excluding the premiums, the franchise makes an operating profit of £30m. Therefore if the DfT took control of the franchise, it should expect £30m profits per annum.
 

YorksLad12

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2020
Messages
1,895
Location
Leeds
The standard of written material that the railway (and other sources) puts out these days is dire. Nothing is properly proof-read and most rely on people with little or no knowledge of their subject cobbling stuff together. This also applies to 'real-time' information, where far too many messages are displayed which appear to have been written by children.
I admit I'm not perfect (it only seems that way) but when I worked at a PTE I proof-read all of our communications. This wouldn't have got by me, corona-crisis or no. You don't have to be an enthusiast to work for a TOC but you should at least know what you're writing about - it's your job, and your job is clear communications not confusing people.

(PS - experienced communications professional available for hire, brings his own tea, knows one end of a train from another.)
 

3141

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2012
Messages
1,772
Location
Whitchurch, Hampshire
I've just received an email from SWR which tells me
Maximising space

From Monday (6 July), we will be running more services with longer carriages to help maintain social distancing for our customers. You should try to maintain a 2 metre distance where possible. If this is not possible, try to maintain a 1 metre distance.​

Would be fun to see some Class 800s borrowed from GWR or TPE. :D
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,790
Location
Glasgow
Pretty sure they mean longer trains, as in more carriages. Didn't another TOC recently make the same mistake?
 

Energy

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2018
Messages
4,473
Pretty much every time this happens it is user error of whoever at the TOC writes the customer messages.
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
6,392
Location
Betchworth, Surrey
Yes - just the increasing slackness of the TOCs, reflecting their decreasing actual UK railway operating experience/knowledge, and the proliferation of non-railway people who write (and, worse, approve) the messages.
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
7,573
Location
London
Yes - just the increasing slackness of the TOCs, reflecting their decreasing actual UK railway operating experience/knowledge, and the proliferation of non-railway people who write (and, worse, approve) the messages.

But the average punter who reads this message will know exactly what they mean. The minority (us on these forums) will find fault but it isn't a major failing.
 

Brush 4

Member
Joined
25 Nov 2018
Messages
506
Just part of the general decline in knowledge. Calling a loco a train. A carriage a train. Stations as train stations. On traffic reports on radio, a single lane road when they mean a single carriageway road. A lane closure on a 2 lane dual carriageway as a carriageway closure. A motorway when it is an A road dual carriageway. (Green on maps not blue) Heard all those, probably other examples. Guessing what is meant isn't good enough. No point in having language if it is reduced to a guessing game. Specific words are for a specific purpose, although multiple definitions do muddy the waters sometimes. Coach:- a railway vehicle, a road vehicle, a horse drawn vehicle, a person who teaches a skill, often sport related.
 

PupCuff

Member
Joined
27 Feb 2020
Messages
505
Location
Nottingham
But the average punter who reads this message will know exactly what they mean. The minority (us on these forums) will find fault but it isn't a major failing.

I know everyone will know what they *mean*, but that's not the point really. A company could type all its press releases in all-lower case with no punctuation and in Comic Sans and with perhaps the odd typo here and there and everyone would know what they *mean*, and still be able to get the gist, but it doesn't extrude professionalism.
 

alistairlees

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2016
Messages
3,737
I know everyone will know what they *mean*, but that's not the point really. A company could type all its press releases in all-lower case with no punctuation and in Comic Sans and with perhaps the odd typo here and there and everyone would know what they *mean*, and still be able to get the gist, but it doesn't extrude professionalism.
Do you mean exude?
 

PupCuff

Member
Joined
27 Feb 2020
Messages
505
Location
Nottingham
Do you mean exude?

Either works. Whilst there is probably a strict scientific difference somewhere, extrusion implies a greater expellant force than exudation (eg I wouldn't expect to hear reference to a volcano 'exuding' magma). Think, gush vs leak, scream vs shout etc.
 

T-Karmel

Member
Joined
20 Mar 2010
Messages
395
Location
London
That reminds me of an article I just read very recently https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/r...uth-western-railway-reading-waterloo-18457215

Work is still ongoing to increase the capacity, but SWR has built a number of new trains featuring new amenities that have not previously been available on all of its services.


I'd love to see SWR building their own trains!

Also, I think article has been edited, cause I'm pretty sure it suggested that this is preparing for demand of people coming back to the offices after corona. Well, they couldn't know that when placing order for new trains 3 years ago, could they? :lol:
 

rebmcr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
3,851
Location
St Neots
And will most normal passengers be bothered by this? I think not

I would prefer it if 'normal' passengers were not misled when, in an emergency, they are instructed to "move to the next carriage".

If they've previously understood carriage to mean train in this context, they could end up on the tracks.
 

DB

Guest
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
5,036
I don't think this is specific to railways. It seems that many industries are now employing generic 'communications professionals' who have no knowledge of or interest in the subject they are supposed to be communicating. This inevitably leads to errors like this.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,673
Location
Another planet...
I don't think this is specific to railways. It seems that many industries are now employing generic 'communications professionals' who have no knowledge of or interest in the subject they are supposed to be communicating. This inevitably leads to errors like this.
Or simply employing a bunch of students to churn out articles at such a rate that proofreading would slow them down and they'd miss out on payment... (BBC and Buzzfeed, I'm looking at you. The fact that those two can be mentioned in the same breath shows how standards have slipped at the former.)
 

alangla

Member
Joined
11 Apr 2018
Messages
1,178
Location
Glasgow
I suppose Northern and ScotRail at least have introduced “longer carriages” - not much shorter than a Pacer on the network and the introduction of 385s on Strathclyde services has extended some of them (e.g. Lanark) from 20 to 23m vehicles. Just a pity that the shorter platforms on some of the Cathcart routes means some services are 3 or 4x 23m rather than 6x 20m as before.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
Well CrossCountry's MD would appear to disagree with you as well:



(The article can be read for free if you register)

I'm not sure quite what he means but (taking into account that he's only talking about long distance services), it sounds like a case of "average" in terms of median/mode rather than the more typical "mean" - i.e. if there are a hundred people who use XC each year and twenty use it daily to commute (as I used to) whilst fifty of them only use it twice a year (and the others use it weekly/ monthly), then you could argue that the "average" person only uses XC once or twice a year - even though the "twenty" people in my example are each responsible for hundreds of journeys (and therefore do significantly more XC trips each year than the "fifty" people).

Regardless, he's not saying that the "average passenger" is doing journeys of three/four/five hours, just that a lot the people who use XC each year (which make up a minority of journeys on XC each year) are only doing so a handful of times - that doesn't say anything about the journey length, just that a large number of annual customers are made up by very occasional users - I'm sure that the same is true of a lot of industries/ services - there's the old adage about "twenty percent" of people being responsible for "eighty percent" of sales.

I certainly know of a number of people who use XC regularly for everyday commutes around Sheffield/ Leeds - I know that when I go on XC services there's a huge turnover of people at the large interchange stations - whilst there are obviously some who use them for longer journeys (as I do occasionally when going back up to Scotland) I think that there should be more focus on the regular journeys than the "once a year" ones. Running a TOC on the basis of "once a year" passengers seems a strange priority (but, hey, this is the DfT...)

I agree about the three hour issue, but that is true for all but a few intercity services. And if we are to put a block on better buffet/shop facilities (clearly Virgin thought it was worthwhile) then where do we draw the line? Anything under 90 mins and no shop? So London to Birmingham would be downgraded in that case. London to Bristol would be a push, given the volume of commuter traffic from Reading. I’d say the intercity services on XC need a shop. They are too long to not have facilities to cater for a market segment they are attempting to attract.

I'd say that we should tailor facilities based on the kind of passengers/ demand that a route has, rather than the black/white approach that services have to fit a certain pigeonhole.

There seems to be a view on here that if a route was branded as "InterCity" in BR days then it must have an "InterCity" level of service nowadays, and we must have consistency between "InterCity" services... rather than saying that, if New Street to Euston is ninety minutes then there's not going to be a lot of people sitting down to a full meal on board.

In my eyes, some routes do/don't justify First Class... some routes do/don't justify a restaurant coach/ a buffet/ a trolley/ no provision... some routes do/don't justify direct services... but I don't see any hard/fast rule that "just because the duration is over a certain number of minutes there must be First Class and/or a Buffet.

Regarding bringing in surplus HSTs , if used as a 2+7 and driven well, add in the ridiculous amount of dwell time on XC services on the SW - NE route, the HST would barely lose time. And allowing safer travel with the loss of a couple of minutes potentially is probably preferable to an on time 4 car voyager rammed to the gunwhales

It's not like buses/coaches, where you can add a minute extra to the schedule here and there.

XC are tightly times to get through certain bottlenecks nationwide. I've mentioned before that a two minute delay going north out of Sheffield will mean being half an hour late at Leeds (due to the way that services are flighted, with the "stopper" being let out of Aldwarke Junction after the XC service has already passed). And getting into Leeds late will mean struggling to find a path on the line from Leeds to York, which will continue to have repercussions all the way to Glasgow.

Look in your neck of the woods at the difference in time a Voyager takes from Newton Abbot to Exeter compared to the GWR stopper - miss your slot and expect to be stuck behind a tediously slow Sprinter.

So, if you want to put slower stock (by which I mean stock unable to match Voyager diagrams - the top speed isn't the old factor) then you're going to have to try to rip up the existing timetable - it's not just a case of "a couple of minute" here and there and "barely" losing time - you either get through the bottleneck on time or you don't.

Whilst I'm sure that a large number of passengers might happily trade off a few minutes of extra duration for the sake of a much longer train, in an ideal world, it's not that simple.

This is kind of what I’m attempting to understand. Are the franchises not as profitable because of the premiums promised to the government or is the underlying operation unprofitable? I.e. let’s say a TOC is obliged to pay the government £50m per annum, but is operating at a loss of £20m per annum. Excluding the premiums, the franchise makes an operating profit of £30m. Therefore if the DfT took control of the franchise, it should expect £30m profits per annum.

I guess the danger is that, in that case, the DfT would be losing £20m profits a year that it currently accounts for - so if it took the provision in house (assuming it did everything as efficiently as the private sector company etc etc) then where is it going to make up that £20m from in its accounts? £20m less in subsidy for other TOCs? I can't see Westminster just writing a cheque for that "missing" money.

It's a genuine problem for XC though - the longer distance fares are fairly high and the services fairly busy through the core but the logistics of running such a complicated franchise must lead to a lot of awkward costs - loads of small bases/depots - lots of staff travelling "on the cushions" to take up their next shift - lots of contingencies etc (must be a lot of route knowledge to maintain each month, given all of the potential diversionary routes) - so much harder and costlier than the kind of TOC that can get away with running everything from just a handful of bases/depots.
 

3141

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2012
Messages
1,772
Location
Whitchurch, Hampshire
But the average punter who reads this message will know exactly what they mean. The minority (us on these forums) will find fault but it isn't a major failing.

I don't think the "average punter" will know exactly what they mean. They will almost certainly realise that the train will be longer, but they won't know whether that's because of more carriages or longer carriages.

Just part of the general decline in knowledge. Calling a loco a train. A carriage a train. Stations as train stations. On traffic reports on radio, a single lane road when they mean a single carriageway road. A lane closure on a 2 lane dual carriageway as a carriageway closure. A motorway when it is an A road dual carriageway. (Green on maps not blue) Heard all those, probably other examples. Guessing what is meant isn't good enough. No point in having language if it is reduced to a guessing game. Specific words are for a specific purpose, although multiple definitions do muddy the waters sometimes. Coach:- a railway vehicle, a road vehicle, a horse drawn vehicle, a person who teaches a skill, often sport related.

I know everyone will know what they *mean*, but that's not the point really. A company could type all its press releases in all-lower case with no punctuation and in Comic Sans and with perhaps the odd typo here and there and everyone would know what they *mean*, and still be able to get the gist, but it doesn't extrude professionalism.

Absolutely right. Although the intended meaning of loose wording is clear most of the time, occasions arise when it isn't clear, and then the lack of clarity can have serious consequences. Readers of Modern Railways will be aware of recent examples involving works carried out on a stretch of line, where communication with a lookout didn't use the standard terminology and a misunderstanding very nearly led to a fatality when someone got off the track with half a second to spare.

There's an interesting thread elsewhere on here called RMT in dispute with SWR regarding ‘guardian angels’ , and some posters object to what SWR are doing on the grounds that railways should be run "professionally" with payment for work and no volunteers. "Professional" is difficult to define, but it includes standards, doing things correctly, maintaining clarity, following procedures, because those doing the job are providing a service to others and they should always be aiming for the best. Talking about "longer carriages" when they mean "longer trains" doesn't match up to that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top