Train connections with advance tickets

[ian13]

I have two separate advance tickets (one to and one from Derby). If the incoming train were to be delayed such that I missed my connection, would I be forced to buy another ticket for my connection?

 

[Guinness]

Once happened to me. What I did was explained to the Train Manager before I boarded about how I missed a previously train due to a late incoming train, 15 down and it was a 10 minute connection time. The Train Manager said it was fine to board as it happens occasionally.

Ask before you board as you could end up forking out over the odds onboard and if you are made to pay then claim a compensation form.

 

[glynn80]

I have two separate advance tickets (one to and one from Derby). If the incoming train were to be delayed such that I missed my connection, would I be forced to buy another ticket for my connection?

It depends, if you give us the dates and times of the respective trains you will be catching it would help a little as in some cicrumstances you would and others you wouldn't.

 

[TEW]

You should technically have to buy a new ticket as when splitting tickets you have no protection if you miss a connection, however long it is but as others have said if you ask the Train Manager they may say yes.

 

[glynn80]

You should technically have to buy a new ticket as when splitting tickets you have no protection if you miss a connection, however long it is but as others have said if you ask the Train Manager they may say yes.

No this isn't true. The circumstances where you would have to buy another ticket would be if you didn't leave the minimum required connection time at the station, if you were transferring onto the rail service from a non National Rail transport mode which caused your delay (e.g. a Tram network).

But the National Rail Conditions of Carriage do allow combinations of tickets to be valid.
National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC), Condition 19, allows customers to use two or more tickets to travel on one train journey, providing that tickets cover the entire journey and one of the following conditions applies:

· they are both zonal tickets (i.e. valid to any of a group of stations in a zone);

· the intended train calls at station(s) where they change from using one ticket to another;

· one ticket is a Season Ticket (but not one issued by a Passenger Transport Executive or Local Authority) and one is not. Restrictions limiting use of any ticket to a specific Train Company's trains are observed.



And the only place in the NRCoC that talks about missing connections is here:

43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded
If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination and the Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination by other means, any Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can, either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you.


And thus shows no exclusions from Advance tickets (which are valid as combinations) and nowhere in the training of my job or through the course of carrying out my job have I come across this rule that Advance purchase tickets are exempt from being allowed on the following train if another TOC has caused you a delay that in turn misses your connection.

 

[ashworth]

If that really is the case it is worth knowing for people whose local station is on a local connecting service that does not have a full range of advance purchase tickets.

Mostly whenever I travel from my local station at Mansfield it is far cheaper to get an advance purchase ticket from Nottingham and pay on the day for the train from Mansfield into Nottingham.
However, I always allow plenty of time and travel on the train before I really need to just in case of delays or cancellations and miss my booked train from Nottingham.
I have always been led to believe that with an advance purchase ticket, that unless it was a through ticket from Mansfield, I may have to pay again.

 

[EM2]

We generally find that you need to throw yourself on the mercy of the TM on the second train. BUT that's at a terminus, where they do a ticket check at the barrier.
If possible, get a note/letter signed by the TM of the first train to prove the late running.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

No this isn't true. The circumstances where you would have to buy another ticket would be if you didn't leave the minimum required connection time at the station, if you were transferring onto the rail service from a non National Rail transport mode which caused your delay (e.g. a Tram network).

But the National Rail Conditions of Carriage do allow combinations of tickets to be valid.
National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC), Condition 19,.......

And the only place in the NRCoC that talks about missing connections is here:

43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded .......

And thus shows no exclusions from Advance tickets (which are valid as combinations) and nowhere in the training of my job or through the course of carrying out my job have I come across this rule that Advance purchase tickets are exempt from being allowed on the following train if another TOC has caused you a delay that in turn misses your connection.

You post was really too long to just cut and paste, so I have removed the passages contained in the NCoC and have provided this link to reference them.

I think this has been discussed before. The NCoC can be dubious at times, but I think you need to take note of the introduction (third paragraph), Condition 7 and Conditions 44 and 45.

The situation would stand that the train company involved in your first ticket could, quite rightly, say they got you to your contractual destination (as printed on your ticket). The train company involved in your second ticket could, quite rightly, say they had provided your contracted service and you failed to board it before it left. Just because the NCoC says you can use two tickets to complete a journey doesn't mean they have the same conditions that a through ticket would have. Now I would think that most staff would just try and arrange a service for you to use, but, from my reading of the NCoC, you have no legal right to it.

 

[glynn80]

You post was really too long to just cut and paste, so I have removed the passages contained in the NCoC and have provided this link to reference them.

I think this has been discussed before. The NCoC can be dubious at times, but I think you need to take note of the introduction (third paragraph), Condition 7 and Conditions 44 and 45.

The situation would stand that the train company involved in your first ticket could, quite rightly, say they got you to your contractual destination (as printed on your ticket). The train company involved in your second ticket could, quite rightly, say they had provided your contracted service and you failed to board it before it left. Just because the NCoC says you can use two tickets to complete a journey doesn't mean they have the same conditions that a through ticket would have. Now I would think that most staff would just try and arrange a service for you to use, but, from my reading of the NCoC, you have no legal right to it.

Condition 44 and 45 really have nothing whatsoever to do with the case in hand. Condition 7 is interesting however as it seems the TOCs have now absolved themselves of responsibility if another TOC is delayed. At the moment looking at that statement in Condition 7 it looks as if you were delayed by another TOC the following TOC would not need to allow you onto the following service. A job for asking ATOC I think!

 

[HSTfan!!!]

If you miss a connection because of an late running service, the general advice we give is to travel on the next available service. Don't necessarily have to check up with the train manager/conductor as its not your fault the train missed its connection (it's different if you missed it personally) And in general if you've missed the last connecting service, its normal for you to be sent as far as possible by train (if possible) and then taxi'd to your final destination station courtesy of the late running operator. This can also happen if the next service isn't within a reasonable time - some operators say 1 hour, others like crosscountry I know is 2hours. Hope that helps

edit: ah crap would help if I read the original post lol! Best thing to do is has been mentioned is check with train manager/conductor on that one. Most train managers I know wouldn't be too bothered really.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Condition 44 and 45 really have nothing whatsoever to do with the case in hand....

You brought up condition 43 which is directly related to condition 44 and 45. It was included for completeness, nothing more.

 

[yorkie]

...The situation would stand that the train company involved in your first ticket could, quite rightly, say they got you to your contractual destination (as printed on your ticket). The train company involved in your second ticket could, quite rightly, say they had provided your contracted service and you failed to board it before it left. Just because the NCoC says you can use two tickets to complete a journey doesn't mean they have the same conditions that a through ticket would have....

This would never stand up in court, and remember that if there is any doubt the customer is deemed to be right in consumer law.

A journey is a journey - singular. In a journey there is one destination. Anywhere else is a stop over point.

Destination is "The place set for the end of a journey, or to which something is sent; place or point aimed at." (Source: dictionary.co.uk)

The NCoC explicity states that a combination of tickets can be counted as one journey.

I rest my case!!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

This would never stand up in court, and remember that if there is any doubt the customer is deemed to be right in consumer law.

A journey is a journey - singular. In a journey there is one destination. Anywhere else is a stop over point.

Destination is "The place set for the end of a journey, or to which something is sent; place or point aimed at." (Source: dictionary.co.uk)

The NCoC explicity states that a combination of tickets can be counted as one journey.

I rest my case!!

But it never says that two tickets equal one contract, now I know where you are coming from Yorkie and I doubt it would really get that far, but the point is that your ticket is proof of your contract with all those who provide the service. If they are not part of the onward contract, then there is no contract for them to adhere to beyond the first ticket. Equally the TOCs involved in the latter ticket are not contracted to help you if they are not part of the first ticket, a contract is a contract and the law recognises that, end of story.

Lets assume that ticket 'A' was an 'Advance' ticket on XC only and ticket 'B' was an 'Advance' ticket on EMT only (using the case that they are split at Derby). If the XC train is late, but does get through to Derby, XC have forfilled there contract because they have got you to Derby as the ticket (and the NCoC) says they have to. EMT however can ignore the XC contract because they are not part of it (just like the NCoC says) and cannot be held accountable for it. In their eyes they provided the service you were booked on and, presumably, it left on time, contract forfilled. Now XC could ask EMT to hold the train if it is not too late, but again, nothing concrete. If luck has it that the EMT train was cancelled, then EMT would still have to provide a service for you (as the NCoC says), but that has nothing to do with ticket 'A'.

 

[glynn80]

There was a case of this not too long ago, where a passenger was travelling from Halifax to London. He chose to take Hull Trains from Selby and thus purhcased a CDR Halifax to Selby and an Advance Purchase Selby to London. When he arrived at Leeds from Halifax he found severe delays on TPE so chose to travel to Doncaster (on advice of GNER staff) and thus purchased a Standard Day Single to get him there. On arrival at Doncaster he still misses the HT by 3 minutes. Speaking to GNER staff at Doncaster they refuse to accept him on their services or take liability for their advice to travel to Doncaster, and he is forced to wait 3 hours for the next HT service.

 

[yorkie]

But that applies irrespective of whether or not tickets have been combined!