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Train doing 6x speed limit at Sandy, 19/10/18

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2HAP

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RAIB investigating why a train was doing 120mph in a 20mph zone at Sandy on 19 October.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/overspeed-at-sandy-south-junction

At around 14:32 hrs on 19 October 2018, an LNER service from Aberdeen to London’s King’s Cross passed through an emergency speed restriction of 20 mph at approximately 120 mph (193 km/h).

Goes on to say that driver apparently hadn't been told of speed restriction, but can driver not read signs that clearly indicate a speed restriction? If the restriction had been put in place after driver had departed from original station but before he/she arrived at the location of the speed restriction, it still applies, does it not?
 
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oversteer

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I suspect at 120mph a driver doesn’t have much time to react to a 20mph sign, let alone slow down in time for it!
 

Darandio

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I suspect at 120mph a driver doesn’t have much time to react to a 20mph sign, let alone slow down in time for it!

There should have been visual warning signs at the standard distance along with portable AWS. The initial report certainly suggests the correct signage was in place.
 

alangla

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I suspect at 120mph a driver doesn’t have much time to react to a 20mph sign, let alone slow down in time for it!

IIRC, the initial warning, i.e. the yellow board with the 20 plus the two silver reflective circles and the AWS magnet are at braking distance from the restriction. Is it still necessary to have the vertical flashing Dalek for late restrictions as well? Should have been plenty of warning that *something* was up ahead even if he missed the actual speed
 

driver_m

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IIRC, the initial warning, i.e. the yellow board with the 20 plus the two silver reflective circles and the AWS magnet are at braking distance from the restriction. Is it still necessary to have the vertical flashing Dalek for late restrictions as well? Should have been plenty of warning that *something* was up ahead even if he missed the actual speed

If the speed restriction is not publicised in the weekly ops notices then it should get a 'dalek' put on it as it is an Emergency Speed Restriction and not a pre publiised Temp Speed Restriction . . You also get warned of these through your late notices, An existing TSR can also get a Dalek if it was meant to be lifted, gets kept on and doesn't show in weekly notices. The boards are meant to be at braking distances for the worst braking performing train on that line. So a restriction of 20 on a 60mph line should take account of a class 6 freight (60mph freight) being able to stop within braking distance. Something like a Voyager can obvs stop a lot quicker and again, this is where a drivers knowledge comes in.
 

big all

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as an aside
emergency braking at high speed over a speed restriction can be worse than loosing say 20mph as you tighten up the suspension and get heavy weight transfer possibly doing more damage
but having said that you would "drop the handle " and throw out the anchor automatically :rolleyes:
 

LAX54

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IIRC, the initial warning, i.e. the yellow board with the 20 plus the two silver reflective circles and the AWS magnet are at braking distance from the restriction. Is it still necessary to have the vertical flashing Dalek for late restrictions as well? Should have been plenty of warning that *something* was up ahead even if he missed the actual speed

An ESR will always have a flashing Dalek, if this goes out, there will be a caution imposed by the Signaller, a TSR will not have a Dalek, as it will be published and everyone knows about it.
 

evoluzione

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An ESR will always have a flashing Dalek, if this goes out, there will be a caution imposed by the Signaller, a TSR will not have a Dalek, as it will be published and everyone knows about it.

Doesn’t always work like that though.

Had plenty of ESR’s that turn into TSR’s and the Emergency Speed Indicator and associated magnets have been left in place, one for over 2 months.
 

Gems

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Around here if they put a 'Dalek' in place, someone would swipe it as a showpiece Christmas decoration.
 

theironroad

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If the speed restriction is not publicised in the weekly ops notices then it should get a 'dalek' put on it as it is an Emergency Speed Restriction and not a pre publiised Temp Speed Restriction . . You also get warned of these through your late notices, An existing TSR can also get a Dalek if it was meant to be lifted, gets kept on and doesn't show in weekly notices. The boards are meant to be at braking distances for the worst braking performing train on that line. So a restriction of 20 on a 60mph line should take account of a class 6 freight (60mph freight) being able to stop within braking distance. Something like a Voyager can obvs stop a lot quicker and again, this is where a drivers knowledge comes in.

Not trying to be picky in your informative post, but on my patch ESRs haven't been published in the late notice case for a number of years except those between Waterloo snd Clapham jnc where no magnets are provided. It can be a bit annoying as noting the mileage for a new restriction was useful and time can be lost because of the the inconsistency in which they are often laid out.

The first we know about a new esr is the magnet and dalek unless someone in the Messroom happens to have mentioned it.
 

ComUtoR

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Not trying to be picky in your informative post, but on my patch ESRs haven't been published in the late notice case for a number of years

We have moved to notices being digital and the late notice case might as well no longer exist. It will be interesting to see what the findings from the RAIB are.

The first we know about a new esr is the magnet and dalek unless someone in the Messroom happens to have mentioned it.

Does that worry you or do you feel that the signage and AWS is sufficient enough ?
 

theironroad

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We have moved to notices being digital and the late notice case might as well no longer exist. It will be interesting to see what the findings from the RAIB are.



Does that worry you or do you feel that the signage and AWS is sufficient enough ?

I'm generally happy with layout in terms of signage etc, just that it's not always consistently applied. So without prior knowledge of the commencement board mileage, it means trundling along at a lower speed than would be necessary especially in areas of curvature or heavy vegetation. I suppose having a brighter colour than grey for the initial magnet might be useful too.

We've only recently been issued tablets and they don't seem too user friendly nor being updated properly yet.
 

ComUtoR

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Same here I guess. The signage is generally good but I'd agree on the inconsistency. We tend to have the green portables so you tend to notice them.

Our tablets are awful and the apps constantly crash or just don't work. You get inundated with emails and its easily understandable if they get lost/ignored. There is certainly a lack of oversight from the TOC regarding them and some Drivers barely turn them on.

The late notice case is robust and is integral to the booking on procedure but as we move to a digital age notice cases are dying out. The last overspeed incident from the RIAB that I remembered did highlight the move towards digital and how we get our notices.

Cheers for the reply
 

gsnedders

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Doesn’t always work like that though.

Had plenty of ESR’s that turn into TSR’s and the Emergency Speed Indicator and associated magnets have been left in place, one for over 2 months.
AIUI, the requirement is a positive one that an ESR must have a dalek, but there's no requirement that a TSR must not?
 

driver_m

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Not trying to be picky in your informative post, but on my patch ESRs haven't been published in the late notice case for a number of years except those between Waterloo snd Clapham jnc where no magnets are provided. It can be a bit annoying as noting the mileage for a new restriction was useful and time can be lost because of the the inconsistency in which they are often laid out.

The first we know about a new esr is the magnet and dalek unless someone in the Messroom happens to have mentioned it.

Do you not get a printout of lates when you book on? They don't go on our notice case as such, just the printouts, (and presumably tablets for a lot of other TOC's and FOC's) We had some ESRs at Euston without daleks and warning boards in the past (due to being near the old rathole at Camden just outside) but even then we had it on the lates notices just to warn us so we weren't ringing up Wembley Mainline to say the boards were missing .
 

evoluzione

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AIUI, the requirement is a positive one that an ESR must have a dalek, but there's no requirement that a TSR must not?

A brand new ESR won’t have any lineside equipment as you approach, everyone will get stopped and cautioned until it’s all in place.

Rule book states that when a ESR is published and becomes a TSR that the Emergency Speed Indicator and associated magnet should be removed.

https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-SP Iss 5.pdf
 

edwin_m

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A brand new ESR won’t have any lineside equipment as you approach, everyone will get stopped and cautioned until it’s all in place.

Rule book states that when a ESR is published and becomes a TSR that the Emergency Speed Indicator and associated magnet should be removed.

https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-SP Iss 5.pdf
There will inevitably be some delay before this happens, as some drivers will get the notice before others. There may also be issues getting safe access to the track for someone to remove the sign and magnet.
 

LAX54

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Doesn’t always work like that though.

Had plenty of ESR’s that turn into TSR’s and the Emergency Speed Indicator and associated magnets have been left in place, one for over 2 months.

But still erring on side of safety, will get more warning than actually needed :)
 

sefton

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"The driver of the train had not received any notification of the existence of the emergency speed restriction prior to the journey."

Sounds a bit of a cockup not telling the driver.
 

GB

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"The driver of the train had not received any notification of the existence of the emergency speed restriction prior to the journey."

Sounds a bit of a cockup not telling the driver.

“telling the driver” is done by the lineside signage which were all correctly in place...that is what they are specifically there for.

You should not need to rely on a notice in a case at booking on (most ESRs are placed after the train service has already begun)..if that means a train has to slow down earlier on approach to the restriction then so be it.
 

sefton

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“telling the driver” is done by the lineside signage which were all correctly in place...that is what they are specifically there for.

You should not need to rely on a notice in a case at booking on (most ESRs are placed after the train service has already begun)..if that means a train has to slow down earlier on approach to the restriction then so be it.

So why bother to put up notices if they are not necessary and why does the report specifically mention the driver was not told if there is no requirement to do so.
 

GB

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So why bother to put up notices if they are not necessary and why does the report specifically mention the driver was not told if there is no requirement to do so.

I don’t know and I’d have to question just how important late notices cases (or digital advance esr notification) are these days but I don’t know specially what info tocs put in them. Freight have operated for years without any kind of advance warning of ESRs at least where I am.
 

sefton

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I don’t know and I’d have to question just how important late notices cases (or digital advance esr notification) are these days

The Rail Accident Investigation Branch seem to believe them important as otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned it
 

GB

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The Rail Accident Investigation Branch seem to believe them important as otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned it

They investigate all avenues as is their job. They may well say in their report it’s an important aspect but the press release offers no weight either way. Notification in a late notice case is not much use to those that have already started their shift when the ESR was placed.
 

sefton

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They investigate all avenues as is their job. They may well say in their report it’s an important aspect but the press release offers no weight either way. Notification in a late notice case is not much use to those that have already started their shift when the ESR was placed.

But in this incident they specifically note that the driver was not informed which indicates they believe the driver should have been informed.
 

Highlandspring

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Why not wait for the report to be published, then it’ll be crystal clear exactly what the RAIB does and doesn’t believe.
 
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