Train doing 6x speed limit at Sandy, 19/10/18

[Southern Dvr]

Because Christmas 2020 is a long time to wait and that’s the sort of speed RAIB work at!

 

[theironroad]

Do you not get a printout of lates when you book on? They don't go on our notice case as such, just the printouts, (and presumably tablets for a lot of other TOC's and FOC's) We had some ESRs at Euston without daleks and warning boards in the past (due to being near the old rathole at Camden just outside) but even then we had it on the lates notices just to warn us so we weren't ringing up Wembley Mainline to say the boards were missing .

Nothing, nil, zero. The only area on all of swr metal where we get advanced written or electronic screen notice (1screen in signing on area) is for esr between Waterloo and Clapham jnc as temporary aws magnets aren't laid there probably because of so many signals and some being quite close. All boards are laid out however.

As others have said , if it is esr being imposed burning laid out yet, then stopped and cautioned.

We use to have all esr in written form in late notice case but most depots now don't have a 24/7 presence to post them in good time, so they were done away with a number of years ago.

Tsrs obviously posted in won

 

[DanDaDriver]

The late notice case is so when the AWS wakes you up at 125mph you don’t cancel it and miss whatever it was alerting you to as you flash past in the rain and the dark.

E/TSR boards get blown over and obscured all the time, it’s just another (cheap, easy and usually effective) layer in the safety system.

Part of that theory about the Swiss cheese.

Say you have a safety issue, and the only thing stopping it reaching you is the piece of Swiss cheese, eventually it will get through the holes, but the more layers you have,the less likely the holes are to align and a safety issue is to make it through.

I’m sure freight do make it though without late notices, but they are a breed apart from us soft shandy-drinking TOC drivers

 

[driver_m]

Nothing, nil, zero. The only area on all of swr metal where we get advanced written or electronic screen notice (1screen in signing on area) is for esr between Waterloo and Clapham jnc as temporary aws magnets aren't laid there probably because of so many signals and some being quite close. All boards are laid out however.

As others have said , if it is esr being imposed burning laid out yet, then stopped and cautioned.

We use to have all esr in written form in late notice case but most depots now don't have a 24/7 presence to post them in good time, so they were done away with a number of years ago.

Tsrs obviously posted in won

I've only ever known my TOC so you learn something every day. Maybe something like this could make it mandatory then .There's been many a time when I've had a rogue AWS horn and seen no boards for anything. Late notices are a handy belt n braces approach to this very quickly induced state of paranoia over wondering whether there's a slack on. (Usually down to unsuppressed magnets on bi-di lines).

*For non staff, the procedure with this event is only to report it at a convenient moment, not immediately. There are a couple of wrong side failures which do require immediate action. (Getting a bell at a red aspect that is meant to result in a horn for example)*

 

[notverydeep]

The RAIB have now issued an Urgent Safety Advice bulletin about this issue...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

 

[TheEdge]

It'll be interesting to see what action is taken following the Urgent Safety Advice. Either we will get stopped and cautioned for every ESR, in which case the timetable is now meaningless. Or, being optimistic will GSM-R be used to send nice berth triggered messages warning about ESRs?

 

[theironroad]

The RAIB have now issued an Urgent Safety Advice bulletin about this issue...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

Just read that, looks like I'm part of the 10% of drivers who don't receive advance notification. Hopefully it will change, but having said that it will be a very full late notice case (or cases) as we have a lot of esr around.

 

[theironroad]

It'll be interesting to see what action is taken following the Urgent Safety Advice. Either we will get stopped and cautioned for every TSR, in which case the timetable is now meaningless. Or, being optimistic will GSM-R be used to send nice berth triggered messages warning about ESRs?

Guess you're second sentence might be a typo. This advice only applies to ESR not TSR which are already notified via WON

 

[TheEdge]

Yes, yes it is. Edited.

 

[DarloRich]

Marker boards and associated automatic warning system (AWS) magnets were in place to provide warning of the emergency speed restriction and denote where the restriction commenced and terminated. However, the driver of the train had not received any notification of the existence of the emergency speed restriction prior to the journey.

and

The RAIB’s preliminary examination found that the requirement to issue information about ESRs to drivers was removed from the railway rule book in 2008.

are very worrying statements! The Swiss Cheese model mentioned above is starting to line up.............

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ver-awareness-of-emergency-speed-restrictions

PS - how is a driver expected to find this information? I guess the late notice case is a thing of the past ( perhaps no clerk to "run" it these days) but are you given some kind of Ipad with a pdf notice?

 

[driver_m]

and



are very worrying statements! The Swiss Cheese model mentioned above is starting to line up.............

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ver-awareness-of-emergency-speed-restrictions

PS - how is a driver expected to find this information? I guess the late notice case is a thing of the past ( perhaps no clerk to "run" it these days) but are you given some kind of Ipad with a pdf notice?

Print offs of late notices, like what we get at VT everytime we book on. (Or via tablets); I honestly thought everyone received late notices .And they're not as numerous as you think. Ours tend to be one or two A4 sheets with esr's and maybe a bit of info eg. about broken TASS balises, temp closed platforms to us, and at this time of year, untreated RHTT sites)

 

[DarloRich]

Print offs of late notices, like what we get at VT everytime we book on. (Or via tablets); I honestly thought everyone received late notices

that is what i assumed happened but the process is clearly broken somewhere

 

[theironroad]

and



are very worrying statements! The Swiss Cheese model mentioned above is starting to line up.............

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ver-awareness-of-emergency-speed-restrictions

PS - how is a driver expected to find this information? I guess the late notice case is a thing of the past ( perhaps no clerk to "run" it these days) but are you given some kind of Ipad with a pdf notice?

We still have physical Late notice cases kept up-to-date date by some guards and drivers who are appointed leading crew, but they don't have fixed presence. We do have an electronic notice case to supplement this. However esr haven't been posted in either for years WAT-CLJ.

 

[DarloRich]

We still have physical Late notice cases kept up-to-date date by some guards and drivers who are appointed leading crew, but they don't have fixed presence. We do have an electronic notice case to supplement this. However esr haven't been posted in either for years WAT-CLJ.

So how do you know the information shown in the case is up to date? If no one tells you how do you find out about an ESR? is there a pile of notices in the changing room for you all to grab on the way out? Sorry for asking but this seems like a really big gap.

I assumed you would be physically given a notice to read and absorb after booking on ( whether by email or by paper) or have a noticeboard that told you when it was last updated and by whom so you know the info was up-to date.

 

[theironroad]

Print offs of late notices, like what we get at VT everytime we book on. (Or via tablets); I honestly thought everyone received late notices .And they're not as numerous as you think. Ours tend to be one or two A4 sheets with esr's and maybe a bit of info eg. about broken TASS balises, temp closed platforms to us, and at this time of year, untreated RHTT sites)

I believe when they changed our sign in system a few years back, this was the plan for us too but rumour has it the company didn't want to pay for the software licence or something. When we key in our sign in number and press 1 to sign on, it will tell us we have signed on and out late notices have been sent, though we have to disregard that and then look at the notice case. Some are now appearing on our tablets, but we don't have an agreed way forward on tablet use and it's all a bit hit and miss tbh.

 

[theironroad]

So how do you know the information shown in the case is up to date? If no one tells you how do you find out about an ESR? Sorry for asking but this seems like a really big gap.

I think I've explained upthread already. Essentially (like the lner incident ) won't know until we get the first warning magnet when driving. The main thing the LNC gets used for is advise of power reduction and if that is newly introduced then we'll get some sort of live or recorded advice from The appropriate signaller.

 

[DarloRich]

I think I've explained upthread already. Essentially (like the lner incident ) won't know until we get the first warning magnet when driving. The main thing the LNC gets used for is advise of power reduction and if that is newly introduced then we'll get some sort of live or recorded advice from The appropriate signaller.

cheers - I assume the magnet is positioned in such a way that you are given adequate time to bring the speed down to a suitable level before the ESR? Personally I think you should be given more notice and the older system seems a sensible and easy way of doing that

 

[driver_m]

cheers - I assume the magnet is positioned in such a way that you are given adequate time to bring the speed down to a suitable level before the ESR? Personally I think you should be given more notice and the older system seems a sensible and easy way of doing that

Yes, you are supposed to have adequate warning time between responding to the AWS and being able to see the board. If a signal & it's AWS Magnet are inbetween, this also has to be taken into account so that a green signal does not mask the warning for a TSR/ESR.

 

[baz962]

If the required distance is met , then you can use the signals fixed magnet , so you always get a horn even on a green .

 

[theironroad]

cheers - I assume the magnet is positioned in such a way that you are given adequate time to bring the speed down to a suitable level before the ESR? Personally I think you should be given more notice and the older system seems a sensible and easy way of doing that

As the others have said since you asked, yes it should be sufficient time. NR have guidelines/formula for setting out ESRs based on the line speed and restriction speed and the braking capability of the all the train types that are route cleared for the line.

For various reasons they are not always consistently laid out. Obviously, the total distance from first magnet to termination board may be couple of miles or more and that requires personnel and suitable access points to lay it out which is time consuming, especially when personnel are short and there are many other things to do. Sometimes you may get a 20mph reduction in speed and mike's of warning and other times a 80mph reduction in speed and a very tight layout meaning much heavier braking required.

 

[sefton]

The RAIB have now issued an Urgent Safety Advice bulletin about this issue...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

Hmm, a safety issue of "Train drivers being unaware that they are approaching a section of track where an emergency speed restriction is in force because some train operators are not passing to their drivers the advice of emergency speed restrictions issued by Network Rail."

As I mentioned yesterday, it does seem they do think someone messed up.

 

[Saperstein]

From

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-49206580

A train driver who sped through a 20mph (32km/h) zone at 121mph (194km/h) was distracted as he grasped for medication for an illness.

The driver missed two speed restriction warning signs, according to the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB).

An emergency limit was set at Sandy South Junction, Bedfordshire, after a crack was found on a set of points the day before the journey, on October 19.

When he finally noticed, it was too late to reduce his speed completely.

The RAIB also said a failure by London and North Eastern Railway (LNER) to notify drivers of emergency restrictions prior to their journey was a contributing factor.

Always a risk
The driver told investigators he began to feel worse as the train got closer to Sandy and he did not notice the first warning sign.

He then misunderstood a second warning and thought it did not apply to his train.

The RAIB warned that although there was no accident on this occasion, there was always a risk when trains do not comply with speed restrictions.

No-one was injured as a result of the speeding and the LNER service from Aberdeen made it to London King's Cross safely.

The report stated it was also possible the driver missed the first warning sign because of issues with its visibility.

LNER now warns all its drivers of any speed restrictions on their routes following recommendations by the RAIB.

Picture shown looks like 20mph ESR sign. I seem to recall this case at the time, think it was a HST x-Aberdeen.

Saperstein.

 

[800002]

This is the RAIB report

 

[jfowkes]

This seems pretty shocking to me:

85 The requirement to provide drivers with details of emergency speed restrictions before the beginning of their journey was removed from the rule book without adequate consideration of the risk associated with this change, and this has led to inconsistency between train operating companies in the information they provide to drivers.
86 In March 2007, a freight operator challenged the requirement in the rule book (see paragraph 47) to issue notices to drivers regarding emergency speed restrictions, stating that the practice was costing it around £60,000 each year, and that the lineside warning equipment was sufficient to notify drivers of the restrictions and to give them time to bring the train down to the required speed.

For the sake of saving £60K per year per TOC/FOC, vital safety information isn't passed to drivers? I'm stunned that this was thought sensible.

 

[800002]

The full summary of conclusions:

Summary of conclusions
Summary of conclusions Immediate cause
95 The driver did not reduce the train’s speed to 20 mph (32 km/h) in response to the emergency speed restriction (paragraph 49).

Causal factors
96 The causal factors were:
a. The driver was distracted due to both a medical condition and searching for paracetamol in his bag, so was not paying full attention to the line (paragraphs 53 and 63, Recommendations 4 and 5).
b. The driver did not respond to the ESI board, and then mis-interpreted the warning board (paragraph 64, Recommendation 3).
c. LNER did not provide drivers with notification of any emergency speed restrictions prior to them starting their journeys, following a change to the rule book in June 2008 (paragraph 78, Recommendations 1 and 2, Actions already taken, paragraph 99). Underlying factor
97 The underlying factor was:
a. The requirement to provide drivers with details of emergency speed restrictions before the beginning of a journey was removed from the rule book without adequate consideration of the risk associated with this change, and this led to inconsistency between operating companies in the information they provide to drivers (paragraph 85, Recommendations 1, 2 and 5).

I'm not adriver so won't comment on the distracted driver theme. But the TOC having not told the driver of a 105 mph speed reduction - choosing not to at that - is deeply concerning.

 

[gazr]

The full summary of conclusions:



I'm not adriver so won't comment on the distracted driver theme. But the TOC having not told the driver of a 105 mph speed reduction - choosing not to at that - is deeply concerning.

What difference does it make if it's 105MPH or 10MPH difference? The ESR warnings are put at a distance that the driver can slow to the correct speed in time safely. The driver missed these warnings through being distracted, which should not ordinarily have happened.

 

[30907]

What difference does it make if it's 105MPH or 10MPH difference? The ESR warnings are put at a distance that the driver can slow to the correct speed in time safely. The driver missed these warnings through being distracted, which should not ordinarily have happened.

That is true.
But distractions will happen and a belt-and-braces approach makes sense.

 

[800002]

What difference does it make if it's 105MPH or 10MPH difference? The ESR warnings are put at a distance that the driver can slow to the correct speed in time safely. The driver missed these warnings through being distracted, which should not ordinarily have happened.

The driver having so much to do, ordinarily, and yes -the driver did miss the warning.
The chances of missing something you're not aware of whilst continually looking out for what you do know about - I would say that is high. Plus managing health issues becomes very difficult I imagine.

That is true.
But distractions will happen and a belt-and-braces approach makes sense.

Yes - what 30907 said!

 

[PeterC]

From the photo on the BBC web site the warning board seems far less obvious than would be required for a temporary speed limit on the roads. Was the suitability of the design reviewed when the rules about prior notification changed?

 

[4F89]

Belt and braces should include a broadcast from the box on approach. No need to put a warning in the LNC that some may not see.