"Train doors may close 30 seconds before departure" - what a nonsense

[Greenback]

Let's agree that "common sense" tells you that you should get to the platform 4 minutes before advertised departure time and it's not necessary to be there any earlier than that

This is taking into account that the doors might be closed 1 minute early.

Therefore, we are agreeing that arriving 3 minutes before door closing time is ok.

Therefore we are agreeing that arriving 3:45 minutes before door closing time is earlier than necessary.

If you turn up 4 minutes before the advertised departure time, and it turns out that the doors are closed 15 seconds before departure, your "common sense" rule means that you're there earlier than we've agreed is necessary.

Therefore, your "common sense" rule by definition means that people have to turn up earlier than necessary for many trains.

Which is why advertising the doors-closed time is more logical, would waste less of people's time, and would have no deleterious effect on train punctuality. So why not adopt that system?

You assume that people don't want to turn up any earlier than is necessary. I don't think that is correct.

From what I see every day most people are not comfortable with that, particularly if they are on a time sensitive journey, where there could be major consequences of missing the train. Very few people arrive at my local station within five minutes of the train being due.

Then you have to think of those with luggage who want to get to a particular place on the platform. They don't see arriving early as a waste of time. In contrast it is a positive, they get peace of mind and are in the right place to board the train with a more comfortable experience.

I doubt it would, and you'll always get someone who thinks they have a god given right to board before the train has departed just like the people who have missed their check-in time at the airport

Agreed. I don't think altering departure times would have any positive benefit at all.

 

[BRX]

I doubt it would, and you'll always get someone who thinks they have a god given right to board before the train has departed just like the people who have missed their check-in time at the airport

Two scenarios:

1) Passenger has timetable in hand which says that the train departs at 12.30 and it says 12.29:10 on the clock.

2) Passenger has timetable in hand which says train departs at 12.29, and it says 12.29:10 on the clock.

I know which one I'd find it easier to tell a passenger that they are too late and sorry I can't let you on the train now.

 

[snail]

It's a stupid idea. TOCs and train staff would be inundated with complaints about trains leaving 'late'.

 

[BRX]

You assume that people don't want to turn up any earlier than is necessary. I don't think that is correct.

It's plain to see that lots of people don't want to turn up earlier than necessary! If everyone was happy to turn up earlier then there would be no need to have notices warning them that doors might close in advance of advertised names!

 

[jopsuk]

It's a stupid idea. TOCs and train staff would be inundated with complaints about trains leaving 'late'.

Would they really though? Who cares if it leaves 30 seconds "late" as long is arrives bang on time?

 

[BRX]

It's a stupid idea. TOCs and train staff would be inundated with complaints about trains leaving 'late'.

You really think there'd be more complaints from passengers who got to their destination on time, who noticed their train started moving 30-60 seconds later than the timetable says, than there would be from passengers who got to their destination late or not at all because they weren't allowed onto a train 30-60 seconds before the time in the timetable?

I don't.

 

[mallard]

Agreed. I don't think altering departure times would have any positive benefit at all.

Well, at the moment, the departure times listed in the timetable are often just made-up numbers that don't really mean anything. Doors close before the time and there may be a significant number of minutes (pretty sure I've seen 5) between the public departure time and the WTT departure time.

The logical part of my mind would be better satisfied if the time displayed actually meant something, but I won't lose sleep over it.

 

[Greenback]

It's plain to see that lots of people don't want to turn up earlier than necessary! If everyone was happy to turn up earlier then there would be no need to have notices warning them that doors might close in advance of advertised names!

I don't see how informing people of the door closure policy can be taken as evidence that people don't want to turn up until the last possible second.

 

[ukrob]

Whilst I don't have a problem with this practice, I would say that it needs to be consistent across all TOC's. Not 30 second posters at one station, 40 seconds at another and one minute elsewhere.

 

[chrisg]

Whilst I don't have a problem with this practice, I would say that it needs to be consistent across all TOC's. Not 30 second posters at one station, 40 seconds at another and one minute elsewhere.

Indeed, and one of the problems being that you wouldn't know that you need to board the train 2 minutes before it leaves until you get to the platform and notice a poster which informs you. Shame it can't be printed on the ticket!

 

[Greenback]

Well, at the moment, the departure times listed in the timetable are often just made-up numbers that don't really mean anything. Doors close before the time and there may be a significant number of minutes (pretty sure I've seen 5) between the public departure time and the WTT departure time.

I don't think there's any point in increasing the disparity between the PTT and the WTT when we should b trying to reduce it!

The logical part of my mind would be better satisfied if the time displayed actually meant something, but I won't lose sleep over it.

Yes, it seems like a pretty trivial concern compared with a lot of the issues that affect the railway system. That doesn't make it invalid of course, I agree that we should have more consistency across the network, and that passengers should be informed about door policies.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed, and one of the problems being that you wouldn't know that you need to board the train 2 minutes before it leaves until you get to the platform and notice a poster which informs you. Shame it can't be printed on the ticket!

It should be made clearer, but posters at station entrances have their use, if only to remind people that queuing at Starbucks may mean they miss their train!

 

[BRX]

I don't see how informing people of the door closure policy can be taken as evidence that people don't want to turn up until the last possible second.

Why do the notices informing people of the door policy exist, then? Are they unnecessary?

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

I would not like to move away from this, for one thing it would have the effect of artificially increasing journey times further.

As opposed to artificially increasing journies times by having passengers sat on a train that isn't moving?

I personally don't like the idea of closing doors early. There is absolutely nothing wrong with shutting the doors at exactly xx.xx:00 and the train moving at at xx.xx:30. Anyone who complains about their train leaving "late" needs to get a life.

Yes it would be wonderful for everyone to turn up early, but sometimes life gets in the way.

 

[Greenback]

Why do the notices informing people of the door policy exist, then? Are they unnecessary?

No, they are, in essence, a backside covering exercise like the warning that the contents of your coffee cup at McDonalds may be hot!

Obviously, there is a minority of people who will try and grab a last minute snack or drink who would otherwise complain that they weren't informed the doors would be closed. Instead they have the necessary information available to help them to decide whether it's worth the risk of doing something like joining a queue.

 

[Geezertronic]

Whilst I don't have a problem with this practice, I would say that it needs to be consistent across all TOC's. Not 30 second posters at one station, 40 seconds at another and one minute elsewhere.

Problem with that is a commuter train (LM 350 for example) takes less time to prepare for departure than a VT 390 or EC 225 set as the doors take longer to close. That is the only reason I can see for the time differences

 

[michael769]

It's plain to see that lots of people don't want to turn up earlier than necessary!

I don't agree the cast majority of passengers are at the station platform several minutes before the train is due to leave. Those jumping on at the last minute are a minority and those who fail to manage to nip in the guards door before he closes it is an even tinier group.

If everyone was happy to turn up earlier then there would be no need to have notices warning them that doors might close in advance of advertised names!

The sole purpose of those notices is to have something to show arrogant selfish people who believe that they are so important that their convenience justifies delaying a couple of hundred people who did bother to present themselves on time, when they complain that the driver did not stop the train and reverse back just to pick them up. That is all!

 

[Greenback]

As opposed to artificially increasing journies times by having passengers sat on a train that isn't moving?

Not quite the same thing! Whether we like it or not, it's a useful marketing tool to be able to quote fastest journey times. This wouldn't be possible if the timetbales didn't show the same journey time as claimed. Therefore, rail could lose a competitive edge if journeys appeared to take two minutes longer than they do now.

I personally don't like the idea of closing doors early. There is absolutely nothing wrong with shutting the doors at exactly xx.xx:00 and the train moving at at xx.xx:30. Anyone who complains about their train leaving "late" needs to get a life.

OK. So the timetable shows a departure at 10:00. Someone arrives at 10:00;05 by the platform clock and complains they could have got on as it is still 10:00 and the train is there.

The only way to introduce this suggestion would be to have the PTT showing seconds as well as minutes.

Yes it would be wonderful for everyone to turn up early, but sometimes life gets in the way.

It does. And when it does, as I mentioned earlier when I finish work I go and have a smoke, browse in the enwsagents and then catch the next train 30 minutes later.

Changing the timetable to show a departure time of 1704 when the train doesn't leave until 1705 would not alter the fact that soemtimes I can catch the train, and soemtimes not. A few would still try to ge ton it, and would still feel aggrieved when they couldn't.

Problem with that is a commuter train (LM 350 for example) takes less time to prepare for departure than a VT 390 or EC 225 set as the doors take longer to close. That is the only reason I can see for the time differences

You are correct.

The only way you could have consistency would be for all public timetables to show a departure time of two minutes before the WTT. I don't think that will assist anyone, and I can foresee that it will not help consisitency (traincrew will still wait until 30 secs if they have a simpler unit to operate) unless every TOC and every train locked their doors at that time and then sat there doing nothing. Is that what we want?

 

[TDK]

No, that's not what I'm saying.

For an 1130 departure I think it's reasonable to expect to be able to turn up (at the platform) at 11.29.03 or 11.29.35. The point is, that depending on the train or the station, I may or may not be able to get on the train, and I have no way of knowing this in advance.

.

To claify the process signs are erected informing passengers that doors will close before the advertised journey time and this is the answer to your series of posts. TOC's want to run their services on time, for instance if a train leaves Marylebone 1 minute or even 30 seconds late the knock on effect can be quite dire, so you need to live with the fact that trains will depart where possible at the advertised times and if you or anyone else is not organised enough to arrive with plenty of time to board your train, get a seat and relax for a couple of minutes I am afraid this is poor personal organisation.

 

[judethegreat]

As opposed to artificially increasing journies times by having passengers sat on a train that isn't moving?

I personally don't like the idea of closing doors early. There is absolutely nothing wrong with shutting the doors at exactly xx.xx:00 and the train moving at at xx.xx:30. Anyone who complains about their train leaving "late" needs to get a life.

Yes it would be wonderful for everyone to turn up early, but sometimes life gets in the way.

Seconded.
Also, the railways are moving more and more toward a less user friendly airline style of operation (Virgin in particular) and i do think this, and comparisons on this thread to air/ferry operations are detrimental.
Regards the comments about trains leaving early generally, i think one minute early is worse than thirty minutes late, especially when it is the last bus/train of the day.

 

[Schnellzug]

This is one of those situations where you never win.

It doesn't matter whether you close the doors 1 minute or 30 seconds before departure time, at departure time, or are running a few minutes late and close the doors after departure time. At busy stations there is always someone who is running for the train, and who will get in a strop if you don't let them on and they miss it.

It's rather similar to how if a Bus is at a busy stop, there'll always be someone hurrying hopefully towards it, and if the Driver waits for everyone, they really would be there all day. Bus drivers get a lot of stick for "closing the doors in people's faces", but people have to be reasonable. Of course, it may be different if there's another Bus in 10 minutes, but there might not be another Train for an hour, but then, surely you'd allow enough time to make sure you didn't miss the train, wouldn't you?

 

[whhistle]

Careful, that first post sounds like a rant which I came to understand isn't allowed here :roll: :P


It's better to close the doors and have the train ready to depart 20 seconds (10 seconds for the doors to close) before the time, rather than it departing late, wouldn't you agree?
By NOT closing the doors early, you will have people attempting to join in the last few seconds.

 

[radamfi]

Should Swiss/Dutch/Belgian/German railways learn from GB and benefit from early running, abandoning their connection policies?

 

[Schnellzug]

of course, with a Desiro or similar train with auto-closing doors, the closing-doors-in-advance scenario is largely academic anyway, as all the Guard will have to do will be press the button to lock them, and ring the Buzzer.

 

[WestCoast]

of course, with a Desiro or similar train with auto-closing doors, the closing-doors-in-advance scenario is largely academic anyway, as all the Guard will have to do will be press the button to lock them, and ring the Buzzer.

These policies don't just apply to those trains of course, Pendolinos' doors are closed early.

 

[Greenback]

Should Swiss/Dutch/Belgian/German railways learn from GB and benefit from early running, abandoning their connection policies?

We are not discussing early running or connection policies, we are discussing whether doors should be closed before the departure time shown on timetables.

I am sure that the above mentioned railways also have people who miss connections, but that is a debate for another thread!

 

[WestCoast]

We are not discussing early running or connection policies, we are discussing whether doors should be closed before the departure time shown on timetables.

Those things are interlinked in my opinion. I see trains leaving before their scheduled departure time in the public timetable, although only by seconds. That is only possible because of early door closures.

Is that the right thing to do? It's up for debate.

 

[radamfi]

We are not discussing early running or connection policies, we are discussing whether doors should be closed before the departure time shown on timetables.

I am sure that the above mentioned railways also have people who miss connections, but that is a debate for another thread!

Obviously time doors are closed and maintenance of connections are highly interrelated. As explained earlier, if you have a dogmatic policy of closing doors at a particular time, then connections cannot be respected. Of course, sometimes connections are missed, as trains can't wait forever, but the Swiss/Dutch etc. networks are designed for connections.

 

[asylumxl]

Obviously time doors are closed and maintenance of connections are highly interrelated. As explained earlier, if you have a dogmatic policy of closing doors at a particular time, then connections cannot be respected. Of course, sometimes connections are missed, as trains can't wait forever, but the Swiss/Dutch etc. networks are designed for connections.

I think it;s fair to say that the TOCs really couldn't care less about connections< as they are unable to see the larger picture, and just view each train individually.

 

[WestCoast]

I think it;s fair to say that the TOCs really couldn't care less about connections< as they are unable to see the larger picture, and just view each train individually.

Yes it's true, and they've got to look after themselves because of the current regime with delay attribution and scrutinised performance. Will that ever change? Not under the current system I would say.

 

[Greenback]

Obviously time doors are closed and maintenance of connections are highly interrelated. As explained earlier, if you have a dogmatic policy of closing doors at a particular time, then connections cannot be respected. Of course, sometimes connections are missed, as trains can't wait forever, but the Swiss/Dutch etc. networks are designed for connections.

They are designed for connectiosn, and they are substantially better than the UK system in that respect.

I think it;s fair to say that the TOCs really couldn't care less about connections< as they are unable to see the larger picture, and just view each train individually.

True, given the fragmentation of our system and the wording ot he legislation that governs it, it is bound to be so.

Yes it's true, and they've got to look after themselves because of the current regime with delay attribution and scrutinised performance. Will that ever change? Not under the current system I would say.

Exactly.

(I still think that this is veering away from the original discussion, but it happens!)

I still think that trains departing at the time stated in the timetable is a good thing. I am not in favour of early running, but it seems to me that the despatch sequence doesn't always take exactly the same amount of time. It does depend on the unit, the position of the door controls (153's seem particularly awkward) and probably a few other things as well.

I'd be very interested in knowing whether trains in Germany etc close and lock their doors before the advertised departure time. I've seen it happen in Spain, Italy and France, but I can't recall it happening in The Netherlands.