Train driver in uniform prevented from going through ticket barriers

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by notadriver, 31 May 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. notadriver

    notadriver Established Member

    Messages:
    3,188
    Joined:
    1 Oct 2010
    A colleague on duty in full uniform was refused exit from a station as he could not produce a valid ticket. Any thoughts on what he/she should do next ?
     
  2. ungreat

    ungreat Member

    Messages:
    682
    Joined:
    11 Nov 2006
    Ring his control.Then watch the idiots at the station squirm when they have to let him out
     
  3. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    15,394
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    That doesn't make any sense. Their staff ID should suffice.
     
  4. berwicksfinest

    berwicksfinest Member

    Messages:
    35
    Joined:
    16 Feb 2014
    We have had the self same incident with 2 drivers at our depot. Both were "arrested" for travelling whilst on duty, unfortunately control didn't sway the issue. It went a lot higher than us mere mortals!

    Personally I haven't had any problems but, should I do, it's "There's your train, I am now not in a fit state to work it, goodbye" and watch the delay costs rack up :roll:
     
  5. TheBerry

    TheBerry Member

    Messages:
    28
    Joined:
    16 Apr 2014
    If he/she is not on duty they would need a valid ticket or a staff travel pass if such an arrangement exists. Unfortunately wearing a uniform is not a free pass.

    If he/she is on duty they should hold a valid diagram and an authority to travel card which would allow them entry through a gate and a flash of that and your staff ID would get you through.

    Of course that's the official line and most folk don't even question things like this. I did once get stopped going through a gate and only because they hadn't spotted my badge/lanyard as I was racing to catch the train.
     
    Last edited: 31 May 2015
  6. reb0118

    reb0118 Established Member Fares Advisor

    Messages:
    2,630
    Joined:
    28 Jan 2010
    Location:
    Bo'ness, West Lothian
    I remember when there were (briefly) agency staff from a security firm checking tickets at the Waverley and an East Coast driver was refused access to the platform for his London Express.

    There certainly was a Stooshie in the steamie after that.

    It did not happen again. :p
     
  7. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

    Messages:
    3,626
    Joined:
    13 Dec 2013
    Location:
    UK
    Happened to me. I used a different exit from the station instead. Why would you be somewhere (in uniform) other than where listed on the diagram ?
     
  8. theageofthetra

    theageofthetra Established Member

    Messages:
    2,290
    Joined:
    27 May 2012
    Must have annoyed the driver but there are all sorts of loons out there and what is to stop someone getting an old uniform and not paying for travel? Similarly what about someone who has been sacked using their uniform to try to continue getting free travel?
     
  9. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    15,533
    Joined:
    7 Aug 2005
    Location:
    0035
    If someone is no longer in employment with a company I would expect that arrangements would be made between the (former) employee and his manager to collect passes/uniform/keys/other equipment.
     
  10. bramling

    bramling Established Member

    Messages:
    2,928
    Joined:
    5 Mar 2012
    Location:
    South-East / Barnard Castle
    Doesn't happen where I am. Uniform is certainly not recovered, and whilst staff are expected to hand their keys in, I don't think it's something that would be chased up. Also doesn't account for any keys or uniform that have been acquired through time over & above the core issue. (The depots I know keep a spare supply of keys and uniform for use when someone has lost or forgotten a key, damages uniform whilst on duty, sh*ts themselves on duty, etc - technically it should get handed back but I don't think it ever does).
     
  11. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    15,394
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    Uniform I can understand, but keys and especially passes should always be recovered or destroyed.
     
  12. HilversumNS

    HilversumNS Member

    Messages:
    232
    Joined:
    30 Apr 2015
    I once challenged someone walking around our office who I didn't recognise. Turned out, he was the HR Director. Commended me on my vigilance, after he showed me his ID.
     
  13. tsr

    tsr Established Member

    Messages:
    6,183
    Joined:
    15 Nov 2011
    Location:
    Ballast
    Whilst under relevant employment I've checked the ID of quite a few railway managers/assessors who have been totally unidentifiable as employees save for perhaps a small bit of lanyard poking out of their shirt. This includes when they have rather naughtily gone and opened up things like intermediate cabs and electronics panels without identifying themselves. I've never had any complaints. Likewise anyone else who needs to travel or access secure areas who may not be showing ID prominently. But to refuse someone passage through ticket barriers if in possession of full uniform and a pass is quite ridiculous. Sadly I have known trains to be cancelled/delayed on rare occasions because of this, including a conductor who couldn't get through the barriers at East Croydon in the rush hour, and simply told his Control under no uncertain terms that gateline staff are obliged to help anyone who is in genuine need of assistance at ticket barriers. Protocol is usually to use a magnetic/smartcard pass if the barriers are busy and the staff are rushed off their feet, but I don't know of a single member of gateline staff who hasn't let me out (as a passenger or acting as staff), with or without a very brief explanation for politeness' sake.
     
  14. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

    Messages:
    4,483
    Joined:
    9 May 2011
    Is this the freight driver who was on a pnb and wanted to exit the station to buy food but was told as he didn't have a ticket he couldn't by any chance?

    Obviously freight guys don't have travel tickets and he only wanted to leave the station, not travel on a train as he was waiting for his freight train. Sounds like either a jobsworth on the gates or the driver failed to explain who he was properly.
     
  15. ert47

    ert47 Member

    Messages:
    642
    Joined:
    28 Feb 2010
    Any chance that member of staff was new and perhaps wasn't fully aware of what to do under certain situations? Im guessing by being on Duty, the uniform was for a TOC that served that station? Or perhaps they were spooked by a member of their management being nearby? (idk, clutching at straws right now)
     
    Last edited: 31 May 2015
  16. class 9

    class 9 Member

    Messages:
    241
    Joined:
    18 Nov 2010
    FOC drivers have a 'Freight duty travel pass'
     
  17. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

    Messages:
    4,483
    Joined:
    9 May 2011

    Which, as far as I understand it, is only valid with a relevant diagram explaining why they are on that train/station.
     
  18. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

    Messages:
    5,964
    Joined:
    7 Jun 2014
    When the late Sir Richard Marsh (later Lord Marsh) was chairman of the British Railways Board he was 'courting' a woman who lived next door to my parents, who later became his wife and sadly died in a car accident in Spain a few years later. The courtship was rather hush-hush at the time and Sir R used to go to her house in Bromley, a few minutes walk from Bromley S station. One day trains to Bromley were disrupted and instead he had to go to Hayes Station. On arrival there (no mobiles then) and unable to find a working payphone to contact his girlfriend to pick him up in the car he approached the man in the booking office requesting to be allowed to use his phone. The booking clerk declined, saying initially 'and I'm the Queen of Sheba' or somesuch, but then Sir R quietly produced some ID and an extremely apologetic clerk couldn't have been more obliging! His future mother-in-law told my parents this story, so I have no doubt of its veracity. Apparently Dick, although he'd been a cabinet minister, lacked pomposity and found it funny, assuring the booking clerk that he'd done the right thing and nothing further would be heard of it.
    I'm not sure whether Richard Marsh had been knighted at this time, so I'm erring on the side of discretion here.
     
  19. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

    Messages:
    21,272
    Joined:
    1 Feb 2009
    Location:
    UK
    If it's like when someone leaves any company, there's only so much that can be done. People can say they did hand stuff back to (insert name of anyone) or that they lost it, or whatever. If they're no longer employed, would the former employer take things any further?

    Thus it's probably fair that even people with a uniform, rucksack, the right shoes and other stuff are checked for their identity - and I'm sure any member of staff would be fine with having to comply with such checks being fully aware of why they're being done.
     
  20. Bodiddly

    Bodiddly Member

    Messages:
    573
    Joined:
    7 Feb 2013
    Location:
    The people's republic of Inverness
    The wearing of a uniform is totally irrelevant to the security issue here. Uniforms are easy to come by. I know because when I was a young enthusiast my hobby was collecting BR memorabilia and had several items of uniform in my collection given to me by railwaymen. All staff members should carry their company issue ID and all members of staff are entitled to ask anyone who is on railway property in an official capacity to identify themselves. It may seem pedantic but if you are unknown to gate line staff, a uniform shouldn't be accepted as a duty pass. If on the other hand gate line staff know the person then common sense should prevail.
    Not only are there quite clever people out there who would don a uniform to gain free travel, there are fantasists who actually believe they are connected with the railway, the odd type who hangs around the station in hi vis clothing. As employees, we need to be vigilant in light of the current terrorist threat. How easy would it be for a terrorist to come across a uniform if they required it? A simple orange hi vis jacket would probably be enough for someone to gain entry to areas where they could do some real damage.
    I will never have a problem being challenged from a member of staff, quite the opposite in fact. It would make me feel a bit safer.
     
  21. notadriver

    notadriver Established Member

    Messages:
    3,188
    Joined:
    1 Oct 2010
    I will add they had their lanyard with their staff ID showing ....
     
  22. theageofthetra

    theageofthetra Established Member

    Messages:
    2,290
    Joined:
    27 May 2012
    Well said Bodiddly. Your pass is part of your essential equipment which when you sign on you are declaring to be in possession of. I first started work many moons ago in high st banks during the active period of the infamous 'M25' armed robbery gang and had it drummed into me to be very careful to check when entering any non-public area for anyone nearby, always to pull the door shut behind me & to identify any visitors. I have seen first hand the effect that a sawn-off being pointed at a 20 year old female colleague has & the entire incident could have been prevented had the robbers i.d been checked. In that sorry episode they wore a unifom very similar to a contractor who was working on renovations at their branch. Security is everyone's responsibility and if it upsets someone- then so be it.
     
    Last edited: 1 Jun 2015
  23. broadgage

    broadgage Member

    Messages:
    742
    Joined:
    11 Aug 2012
    Location:
    Somerset
    Agree that reliance should not be placed on a uniform as being proof that someone is entitled to be on railway property.
    As others have posted it is fairly easy to acquire railway uniform.

    I once wore an orange overall for a train journey and was waved through the barriers at each end and not asked for a ticket on board.
    I should add that this was NOT done to evade the fare, I had a valid ticket but no one asked for it.
    Orange overalls are not unique to the railway but are readily available.
     
  24. Arctic Troll

    Arctic Troll Established Member

    Messages:
    7,880
    Joined:
    12 Sep 2013
    Location:
    Newcastle upon Tyne
    Wish I could say I was surprised. I know of a senior TOC manager who was PF'd at a major London station when legitimately travelling on their staff pass (which they presented)..
     
  25. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

    Messages:
    15,394
    Joined:
    28 Aug 2011
    Location:
    Scotland
    I understand that there are limits, but the idea I got from bramling's post was that they don't even try. My employer will withhold final salary and/or any holiday pay until any pass cards, or other company equipment are returned.
     
  26. A-driver

    A-driver Established Member

    Messages:
    4,483
    Joined:
    9 May 2011

    Most railway employers will do that to. Keys, uniform, equipment, publications, licences, travel passes etc all need returning and they deduct final pay by the required amount for each missing item.
     
  27. bramling

    bramling Established Member

    Messages:
    2,928
    Joined:
    5 Mar 2012
    Location:
    South-East / Barnard Castle
    It's hard to recover what you don't know the person has. Funnily enough, I was cleaning out my equipment bag today and found 4 keys of various types in the bottom of various pockets, all over and above the core issue.

    As for manuals and paperwork, this stuff can be picked up freely. We sign for a personal issue, but it's not hard to get further copies if you want or need them for any reason. PDFs are even easier to come by, in my location a wide range of stuff can be freely downloaded off the company intranet. I have a massive amount of old documentation which I use for work purposes, often comes in very handy for certain types of technical investigations, eg how a particular signal works, etc.

    What *does* tend to go back are staff passes, locker keys (real bugbear), key fobs and stuff like drink machine cards. In the case of the latter, there was a time when they were like golddust, such that we had a waiting list of people wanting to get them off retiring staff. Handheld radios are another item that will be chased up, these also get audited on a regular basis and any not in regular accounted-for use will be stopped, they are also GPS tracked so you could potentially have the BTP knocking at the door. Ticket seller cards are also closely guarded, and if not handed back would be hotlisted and stopped very quickly.

    At the end of the day, keys are not hard to obtain - take a look through Ebay for proof of this. To be fair, security probably should be a bit tighter in this regard, but equally if someone is responsible enough in employment to be entrusted with being an authorised holder of train keys,one would expect they would be equally responsible in retirement.
     
  28. GodAtum

    GodAtum Established Member

    Messages:
    2,098
    Joined:
    11 Dec 2009
    So TOC employees cannot use their company ID card to get travel on their network?
     
  29. plymothian

    plymothian Member

    Messages:
    547
    Joined:
    26 Sep 2010
    Location:
    Plymouth
    No, an ID is not a ticket, that's what the travel passes, boxes and PRIV cards (and goodwill) are for.

    However, the ID should get an employee access if they are working there.
     
  30. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

    Messages:
    3,626
    Joined:
    13 Dec 2013
    Location:
    UK
    As far as I am aware. The only things that allows you free travel. Is either your staff free travel pass or your diagram with a booked pass train.

    Free travel facilities can be withdrawn for numerous reasons. If you have had yours removed then you wouldn't be entitled to travel. Whilst on duty you should only really be somewhere that you have been authorized to be.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page