Train Driver Psychometric Assesments to be made fairer?

[Stigy]

This just popped up on my LinkedIn and found it interesting. I thought it was going to say about actually making it fairer, but as with a lot of indistries it actually looks more like the assesment process is potentially being looked as as it’s not necessarily as fair as it could be to certain groups. What’s everyone’s thoughts on this?

https://www.rssb.co.uk/industry-new...-train-driver-psychometric-assessments-fairer

 

[GadgetMan]

I’m brown and I managed to pass them just fine. Perhaps we should just do away with testing altogether, put everyone straight through to DM interview.

As I work with some female Drivers, I’m guessing they managed to pass too.

 

[martin2345uk]

What is it about the current process that is less favourable towards minority groups exactly...?

 

[Jonfun]

I don't have a great deal of time for the driver testing process, to be honest. It has a purpose to ensure a minimum level of aptitude is met, but these days it's used mainly as a way of whittling down the numbers; see the number of posts on here where someone's met the national standard but the company want a higher pass mark etc.
All this about making the process fairer is just a statistics driven exercise trying to flatten out the bumps in different age brackets/genders/ethnic backgrounds etc. It's nothing that anyone taking the tests would notice.

 

[Carlisle]

What is it about the current process that is less favourable towards minority groups exactly...?

It’s long been claimed, rightly or wrongly, certain parts of the testing process favour the workings of male brains over females

 

[Tomnick]

It’s long been claimed, rightly or wrongly, certain parts of the testing process favour the workings of male brains over females

If the tests are effective indicators of the attributes necessary to do the job, then might that just be because the male brain is generally better suited to the job?

 

[Stigy]

A bit tongue in cheek admittedly, but I certainly don’t see an issue with it. I’m not a fan of the whole ‘positive discrimination’ thing, which this looks like it’s heading towards...

 

[HH]

The only relevant question ought to be whether the test finds the right people for the job. If "fairer" means that less able get picked over more, then that would not be a good thing.

 

[Jonfun]

The only relevant question ought to be whether the test finds the right people for the job. If "fairer" means that less able get picked over more, then that would not be a good thing.

But therein lies the question, how do you define "more able"? Plenty of folk who pass the tests won't make good drivers and plenty of folk who would make good drivers won't pass the tests. There's an argument that raising the minimum educational standards for Drivers (which are very low, currently) would do the same - if someone can pass three A-Levels, for instance, they're unlikely to struggle passing a rules course. It would be interesting to see if anyone has ever done a study on correlation between educational standards and safe train driving, I might have a look later.

 

[Tomnick]

Being able to pass a rules course is very different to being able to interpret and apply the rules in varied situations under a lot of pressure, though. That’s largely the sort of thing that the tests are looking for?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The actual scientific proof behind psychometric testing is very very shaky, shall we say. And there is growing evidence that the tests, and the way they are structured, act to discriminate against certain groups. The pass mark and the desired qualities are subjective not objective, and recruiting managers will generally set it to recruit people like them. And as senior TOC management is predominantly white, middle aged and middle class men...

They're used as a way to whittle down numbers, same as the way algorithmic assessment of CVs is.

 

[michael74]

I have only skimmed the executive summary, however from what I have read, the report is saying that the testing is fit for purpose its only that there is more white men than women or people from a non-white ethnicity passing. To be fair this has been an issue in most professions such as the Police and Fire etc for years. Is this more about the demographics applying and perceptions of applicants from minorities who feel unable to apply?

 

[richa2002]

What a load of twaddle. Yet another indication of competency being relegated to second place compared to which 'group' you belong to. It will sadly become more and more common though as brainwashed students from the last 10 years who have been fed this kind of thing at school and university start reaching positions of influence. Rail against this as much as you can because this kind of thinking does not end well.

Comments by individuals such as Arctic Troll above sadly show that racism, sexism and ageism are still alive and well. The fact he or she even sees it fit to mention skin colour, gender or age of management with a negative insinuation is very sad to see and feels like we are heading in reverse.

Let us ensure we have the best procedures in place to find the most competent candidate. If a trend appears that a certain group is more competent then sorry, deal with it. This is a secondary factor. Judge someone as an individual, not their infinitely categorised oppressor or oppressed group. Then maybe we will start heading forward again in a society where anyone can feel like they can achieve anything. No group identity to feel like they are being held back or given an unfair leg up with.

 

[whhistle]

This is a good example of where we're missing the trick with inclusivity.
Not everyone is able to do all jobs and that's okay.
Just like you don't get really tall jockeys, or really short basketball players.

I agree with @HH although the route to get to that right person does need a lot of tweaking in this modern world.

Not sure if they still do the mechanical test?
I don't see that relevance these days when thinking about newer stock. But then a degree in computing wouldn't be that good either as most train systems are specialised software and I believe most train drivers are talked through fault solving by their controller anyway.

Of course more white people are passing because that's what Britain "produces" natively. Accepting everyone is great, but not accepting a white man because the company needs more women, black, brown, whatever people to look good/meet certain needs isn't good.
I can't see why this country is so obsessed with that sort of approach, so much so that TfL stated on their applications that they "especially welcomed" applications from non-white people.

 

[HLE]

Plenty of Asian, Indian and European people driving trains on the UK network. And women.
I can see the point that the tests may rule out people who would make good drivers but that shouldn't be linked to a race or gender debate.

'Positive' discrimination is usually just racist/sexist. Look at the west midlands fire service example quoted in the news the other day.

 

[Stigy]

There's an argument that raising the minimum educational standards for Drivers (which are very low, currently) would do the same - if someone can pass three A-Levels, for instance, they're unlikely to struggle passing a rules course.

It would be interesting to see the results. I'm not a fan of degree level entry requirements for a job which often requires life experience and common sense. Sometimes I find that those with degrees (certainly younger applicants), lack said life experience and common sense.

 

[Stigy]

'Positive' discrimination is usually just racist/sexist. Look at the west midlands fire service example quoted in the news the other day.

Agreed, but perfectly acceptable. BTP recently launched a recruitment campaign not open to white males, for example.

 

[Llama]

Since the psychometric tests were changed in 2013 the average trainee driver seems to be slightly less proficient. The decent ones in a class now seem only to be as good as the average/below average trainees of classes a decade ago. We are having more trainees fail their passouts and training them is harder work than it used to be.

Some reasons for that in my opinion are the removal of the mechanical comprehension test from the psychometric tests and also the general slight reduction in society of skills in things like map reading, logical reasoning and adapting to new & unfamiliar situations.

There are plenty of other factors though. The salary means a different type of applicant for trainer driver roles, there are more people coming out of university with degrees they don't/can't do anything with and there is he really less interest in the job among new recruits than there was. There are far more new drivers who find they can't hack the job too and go on the sick, play the system or go for other jobs within the railway (eg driver manager) as soon as they can do because the realisation hits them quite quickly that they are not going to be able to do the job for long. Being a train driver is not a job you want to be stuck in if you don't like it.

 

[sw1ller]

Being able to pass a rules course is very different to being able to interpret and apply the rules in varied situations under a lot of pressure, though. That’s largely the sort of thing that the tests are looking for?

This was going to be my reply to that comment too. The last 3 people to fail the course at our TOC, didn’t fail in the classroom. They also didn’t fail at traction training stage. They failed because they couldn’t put into practice what they had been taught.

I still don’t get what someone’s skin colour has to do with the testing though. I do think it needs changing, but I see no reason to make it different just to help more ethnic minorities pass. They’ve been put in place to see if that individual can 1)pass the lengthy and demanding ‘trainee driver course’ and 2) can do the job safely on their own. They’re by no means fool poof and people will still fail the course, but it hopefully brings them numbers down. How much does it cost to train a driver these days? £100,000? I’ve heard double that from some people. The TOCs want the best return on that investment and why shouldn’t they?

I do agree with another poster @Llama that the salary has brought in a different type of person to the roll. I myself moved over because of the pay and conditions. I don’t think that’s always a bad thing though - but it can be.

 

[FGW_DID]

Agreed, but perfectly acceptable. BTP recently launched a recruitment campaign not open to white males, for example.

No, recruitment is open to white males as well, as BTP were at pains to point out when they got slammed on Twitter for the recruitment poster. They are just aiming their campaign at a targeted audience.
Saying that there was a workshop mentioned specifically for females & ethnic minorities to assist in their applications.
Read into that what you will!!

 

[Topcat999]

i do not think education and intelligence is everything though. Especially for driving of sorts.

Driving cars, trucks, boats, trains, planes, etc it's a skill some are a lot better than others. A kind of spatial awarness. Like being tall you either have it or not. Just because you have a upper class degree from Oxford does not mean you are going to make a naturally good train driver.

 

[FGW_DID]

but perfectly acceptable.

How is that ever perfectly acceptable?

To discriminate against one group by raising their pass mark / lower the other groups standards.

 

[Llama]

Agreed, discrimination is discrimination. This is the RSSB tinkering in things that they oughtn't. They would be better off looking more closely at the absolutely abysmal standard of training and competency management of operational staff, and this isn't just TOCs/FOCs either - I have spoken to some scarily clueless signallers recently.

 

[Trainguy90]

The only test that could show a possible bias is the mmi where it’s just you and the interviewer who is basically judging you. This seems to be the main stumbling block for most people and your pass/fail is in the hands of that single individual.

Plus speaking in these forums to people who are either preparing for it or have been through it many people don’t seem to know exactly what they are looking for lol

 

[Twotwo]

The only test that could show a possible bias is the mmi where it’s just you and the interviewer who is basically judging you. This seems to be the main stumbling block for most people and your pass/fail is in the hands of that single individual.

Plus speaking in these forums to people who are either preparing for it or have been through it many people don’t seem to know exactly what they are looking for lol

I feel like this part is very subjective. Two people can give similar answers yet one interviewer will consider it a pass whereas another will consider it a fail.

 

[Stigy]

How is that ever perfectly acceptable?

To discriminate against one group by raising their pass mark / lower the other groups standards.

It's acceptable for any industry to discriminate against white males in favour of ethnicity groups if they're under represented. Maybe I used the wrong term, as I don't agree with this, far from it in fact. It's deemed acceptable and is quite legal is probably a better term.

 

[Trainguy90]

I feel like this part is very subjective. Two people can give similar answers yet one interviewer will consider it a pass whereas another will consider it a fail.

Exactly, the other tests give a clear pass or fail result but the mmi is the only one open too interpretation and gives a chance for a single person to decide someone’s fate

 

[Static65]

I was under the impression that the current Vienna tests already did this to an extent. Don't they mark you against an expected outcome from a weighted average within your own demographic? So for example, a 30 year old male applicant is marked against expectations from other 30ish year old males and a 50 year old female against others in her demographic.

I don't have a source for this but seem to remember it being mentioned on these boards before. Is anyone able to clarify?

Edit to add: for example, the 2 handed coordination test documentation states that for scoring comparison, norm groups may be available for age, gender and education. There is no mention of any other factors i.e. ethnicity etc, nor does it confirm that these groups are currently used, just that they can be. Perhaps expanding this kind of personalised marking is what the article is alluding to?

 

[crebbs1]

I have attended many different types of interviews in the past and in my opinion, the train driver assessments and interviews have been by far the fairest. Everybody starts on the same level and has just as much chance of being a success as the next person.

In other interviews that I have attended, my findings on a number of occasions have been that the job has been lined up for somebody already.

 

[387star]

Seems few fail them these days resulting in huge talent pools?

In say 2013 before they were changed far fewer passed the old reaction test or mechanical tests