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Train driver working hours

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43066

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Do you remember 'committed hours' ? Things like late running were added to your committed hours total rather than paid. Committed hours are gone but certainly not forgotten :)

Before my time, but I remember people talking about it unfavourably!

How did it work?
 
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tiptoptaff

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Before my time, but I remember people talking about it unfavourably!

How did it work?
In essence, you "owed" the company hours due to the way the links were structured. So you didn't get paid overtime until you'd balanced the link hours with hours worked. So things like late running or longer jobs off spare were taken off your "committed" or "owed" hours

Reality was that more hours were owed than ever worked so you never got paid OT

May be slightly different at ComUtoR's place, but that's how it worked at the place I was that had it
 

43066

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In essence, you "owed" the company hours due to the way the links were structured. So you didn't get paid overtime until you'd balanced the link hours with hours worked. So things like late running or longer jobs off spare were taken off your "committed" or "owed" hours

Reality was that more hours were owed than ever worked so you never got paid OT

May be slightly different at ComUtoR's place, but that's how it worked at the place I was that had it

Thanks. That sounds bloody awful!
 

stevieoz

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Even when delayed in finishing, your following shift will adjust to fit, sometimes you can work an extra hour and end up getting the next day off with pay to make up for it. Delays are a bonus for me, extra cash for near zero graft
A real train driver
 

4F89

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In essence, you "owed" the company hours due to the way the links were structured. So you didn't get paid overtime until you'd balanced the link hours with hours worked. So things like late running or longer jobs off spare were taken off your "committed" or "owed" hours

Reality was that more hours were owed than ever worked so you never got paid OT

May be slightly different at ComUtoR's place, but that's how it worked at the place I was that had it
Similar to my place, I'm 8 months through my year and 100 hours down against my contract, so am back filling the owed hours. Try to negotiate everything into a rest day for any changes to jobs etc and get paid separately is the only way now. A few chaps will bust their contract tho, and then get a premium on top for all hours over. Not common
 

tiptoptaff

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Similar to my place, I'm 8 months through my year and 100 hours down against my contract, so am back filling the owed hours. Try to negotiate everything into a rest day for any changes to jobs etc and get paid separately is the only way now. A few chaps will bust their contract tho, and then get a premium on top for all hours over. Not common
That's the problem with annualised hours. They seem to have you over a barrell on your side unfortunately!
 

43066

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Similar to my place, I'm 8 months through my year and 100 hours down against my contract, so am back filling the owed hours. Try to negotiate everything into a rest day for any changes to jobs etc and get paid separately is the only way now. A few chaps will bust their contract tho, and then get a premium on top for all hours over. Not common

ASLEF doing the business. Not.
 

driver9000

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In essence, you "owed" the company hours due to the way the links were structured. So you didn't get paid overtime until you'd balanced the link hours with hours worked. So things like late running or longer jobs off spare were taken off your "committed" or "owed" hours

Reality was that more hours were owed than ever worked so you never got paid OT

May be slightly different at ComUtoR's place, but that's how it worked at the place I was that had it

We used to forfeit the first hour and paid O/T beyond that.
 

SlimJim1694

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Committed hours was an absolute joke. <(
That went at the same time as the average 4.25 day week (every 5 day week seemed to be on the latest late turns). Its incredible to think what improvements we've seen in recent years, yet are still lagging behind most other TOCs. I dont think it's as bad as some freight operators though. I've heard tales of FOCs 'buying back' drivers annual leave and many drivers apparently quite happy to forgo their AL for the money... and we hear all this industry-wide stuff about fatigue management!
 

Jon1930

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Committed hours was an absolute joke. <(
That went at the same time as the average 4.25 day week (every 5 day week seemed to be on the latest late turns). Its incredible to think what improvements we've seen in recent years, yet are still lagging behind most other TOCs. I dont think it's as bad as some freight operators though. I've heard tales of FOCs 'buying back' drivers annual leave and many drivers apparently quite happy to forgo their AL for the money... and we hear all this industry-wide stuff about fatigue management!

Yes and many drivers and guards would sell a weeks leave and then just go sick for a week lol
 

ComUtoR

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I've heard tales of FOCs 'buying back' drivers annual leave and many drivers apparently quite happy to forgo their AL for the money... and we hear all this industry-wide stuff about fatigue management!

Other places I've worked have had a buy back for leave for years. How that worked was when you got to the end of the leave year and instead of carrying over the days, there was the option to get paid for them instead. I would support that. Carrying over leave is frustrating and having to squeeze unwanted leave into the first couple of months is just as much a penalty.

@tiptoptaff sounds pretty spot on. Everything was added to your committed ours and then at the end of the year if you were over you got paid. The reality is like you said. You rarely worked over your hours. Annual leave was counted less than your worked days to so you lost out there. Sickness was credited at zero hours so going sick also cost you hours.

A consequence of losing committed hours has been that spare turns get rostered at maximum turn length so instead of going over your spare time and getting paid for it you can't ever get a longer turn. A consequence of COVID has been that all turns have been converted to spare and we tend to get longer jobs so you actually get paid the 'forced' overtime. For me I get a flat month as I don't do rest days etc but last month I got about 6hrs extra.

Very much a double edged sword.
 

SlimJim1694

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Yes and many drivers and guards would sell a weeks leave and then just go sick for a week lol

Classic! :lol::E
Other places I've worked have had a buy back for leave for years. How that worked was when you got to the end of the leave year and instead of carrying over the days, there was the option to get paid for them instead. I would support that. Carrying over leave is frustrating and having to squeeze unwanted leave into the first couple of months is just as much a penalty.
I meant buying back block weeks rather than odd days. But even so I think it's out of order. How can the union ever argue for more quality time off work if members are selling back their block leave? Shouldn't be allowed.
 

whoosh

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Southeastern used to have "committed hours" or "annualised hours" as it was also known, but it was got rid of a few years ago as mentioned above.

C2C and Eurostar also had committed/annualised hours as well at some point, I believe. Does anyone if they still have?

I don't think Freightliner Intermodal do, but most other FOCs seem to have this system.
 

ComUtoR

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I meant buying back block weeks rather than odd days.

That I wouldn't agree with.

If I carried 5 over next year (and probably will) I'd prefer the money. I'd still have a full years leave and wouldn't be confined to taking the days in winter.

But even so I think it's out of order. How can the union ever argue for more quality time off work if members are selling back their block leave? Shouldn't be allowed.

My thought on the Union .....

However; the way that Drivers leave works is very pro company and anti-employee. There shouldn't be a system in which your employer can simply decline all leave on a whim or not bother to grant or decline your leave until the Thursday the week before. Sometimes even later. There shouldn't be a system where the employer can simply tell you your leave day (excluding the block leave)

I find it incredulous that the company can find cover at the drop of a hat when someone goes sick or goes PI but when they are given months and months of notice, they can't cover a leave day. Seriously. WTF !

At all times. My preference is to have my leave granted. If they had to pay out all carried over leave it may incentivse them to actually grant it when requested.
 

greatkingrat

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Ultimately, selling annual leave is no different to working a rest day, so unless you want RDW stopped completely, there is no reason to stop people selling annual leave.
 

the sniper

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My thought on the Union .....

However; the way that Drivers leave works is very pro company and anti-employee. There shouldn't be a system in which your employer can simply decline all leave on a whim or not bother to grant or decline your leave until the Thursday the week before. Sometimes even later. There shouldn't be a system where the employer can simply tell you your leave day (excluding the block leave)

I find it incredulous that the company can find cover at the drop of a hat when someone goes sick or goes PI but when they are given months and months of notice, they can't cover a leave day. Seriously. WTF !

At all times. My preference is to have my leave granted. If they had to pay out all carried over leave it may incentivse them to actually grant it when requested.

But there has to be a limit. You can't have 80%+ of the Drivers booking AL for something like the World Cup final. The situation with AL is one of the few things that I just think, it is what it is, can't be helped, as much of a pain that it is. Obviously the numbers being granted can be negotiated and tweaked, but people will still get caught out by it.

What I find incredulous is something like how AL and even RDs can be cancelled in the Police, and often are in some forces, to put things in perspective.
 

Daydr3am3r

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But there has to be a limit. You can't have 80%+ of the Drivers booking AL for something like the World Cup final. The situation with AL is one of the few things that I just think, it is what it is, can't be helped, as much of a pain that it is. Obviously the numbers being granted can be negotiated and tweaked, but people will still get caught out by it.

What I find incredulous is something like how AL and even RDs can be cancelled in the Police, and often are in some forces, to put things in perspective.

It was a regular thing in the police. A couple of months before large scale events an email would’ve sent out informing everyone that all leave/rest days are to be be cancelled. Previous to this email there would also be leave embargo’s, sometimes covering months, if the force deemed it necessary for any major events/operations.
 

ComUtoR

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But there has to be a limit. You can't have 80%+ of the Drivers booking AL for something like the World Cup final.

I agree and know where your coming from. Its getting harder and harder to miss personal events and the old addage that "its the railway" no longer has a place in a modern world.

What I find incredulous is something like how AL and even RDs can be cancelled in the Police, and often are in some forces, to put things in perspective.

I have plenty of friends and families in other industries and whilst I've been driving for some time. I wasn't always a Driver. Perspective is something I have in spades.
 

theironroad

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I agree and know where your coming from. Its getting harder and harder to miss personal events and the old addage that "its the railway" no longer has a place in a modern world.



I have plenty of friends and families in other industries and whilst I've been driving for some time. I wasn't always a Driver. Perspective is something I have in spades.

I'm not sure what your expecting. If you depot's quota for drivers on leave on a certain day (whether annual block leave or ad hoc already booked) how do you expect to be gtanted leave in advance. If at the 36 hour stage they can grant additional leave because there are less sick/training etc or less diagrammed work or possible to cross cover from another depot then it can be granted then, but I'd agree that is often too late for a lot of things. There has to be a limit to total on leave unless you expect the company to cancel the trains on your turn .

Our TOC will grant additional ad hoc leave at the 36hr stage if there are free day work volunteers available as part of our FD agreement.
 

ComUtoR

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Lets say you have a wedding (as a guest) planned in September. We are now in July. How is anyone supposed to plan for that day if you aren't granted the day off right up until the week or even a 2 days before hand ? And yet. If someone was to go sick tomorrow, their turn would be covered and then the rest of their turns covered until they return from sick. Same if someone went PI. Their turns get covered.

I know how rosters are built and that there is already a built in level of cover for sickness, training, leave etc etc. This is what Spare turns are designed to cover. However; there is often 'no cover available for leave' but I guarantee that is a turn was suddenly needed to be covered, it would be. We even have leave declined and still have spare Drivers about :/

There is also an issue that it can be a little to easy to 'game the system' The result of which is people screwing their colleagues over. Sadly, people see it as the only way to get around such flawed systems.

I accept there needs to be a limit, been there, done that, worn the T-Shirt and All That Jazz. But there is almost zero forward planning, especially with leave.

Again, another old chestnut is that the railway relies on overtime. This is a very poor working practice. If there was sufficient cover available then the railway wouldn't need overtime and would have sufficient cover to actually allow adhoc leave to be granted. I firmly believe that sometimes we are our own worst enemy. Something I am also guilty of. We seem to have accepted that 'The Railway' is the only way and that 'That's how its always been' I think the ethos should be 'how can we do better'

I read some of the research on the RSSB website and I try and keep up to date with various bits in the industry. The industry itself wants change but TOCs seem to push back or drag their heels about it. There has been a push to learn the lessons from the airline industry with non technical skills and with how they deal with fatigue etc. COVID has been interesting in how the TOCs have reacted and how much is actually possible with rostering. Our incidents almost vanished, Drivers were more refreshed, turns have been pretty decent. As the Timetable has ramped up and the diagrams have changed, rosters are returning to normal... Yep incidents are back, complaints over fatigue, and concerns are growing over the volume of outstanding leave.

Rostering has a huge impact on everything we do. Maintaining a better work/life balance through quality time off, flexible rostering and time off for leave are vital for both our physical and mental health.
 

greatkingrat

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I'm surprised you have so much trouble booking leave. At my TOC, there is a fixed percentage of the depot allowed to book leave on any one day, as long as that number hasn't been reached, the company have to accept your leave request. In practice, the leave quota only ever gets full up in school holidays so you can pretty much get whatever days you want off.
 

ComUtoR

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It's a major issue at my TOC. As mentioned previously in another thread. It can be exacerbated because other depots manage it. I have found that it varies at other TOCs with some being more successful than others.

COVID has been an eye opener. The drop in services means there has been a surplus of staff. Many people went sick or had to isolate or shield. The net result as been an almost elimination of Rest day working (we still used rest day workers) and and a significant impact on Driver welfare. I've worked more hours (but got paid for it) but I also sat spare for a change. Not many but getting the odd break here and there and having enough Drivers that diagrams aren't pushed to the absolute limit has been a godsend. The 'railway' is actually working for a change.

It highlights how tight everything is and how much or a surplus is truly needed to ensure services run on time, staff are available, leave can be granted, training gets covered, etc.

FYI our 'leave quota' is 1; if cover is available. Come December there is always mad rush to book outstanding leave specifically so it can get declined and carried over.
 

SlimJim1694

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I find it incredulous that the company can find cover at the drop of a hat when someone goes sick or goes PI but when they are given months and months of notice, they can't cover a leave day. Seriously. WTF !
Very true.
Ultimately, selling annual leave is no different to working a rest day, so unless you want RDW stopped completely, there is no reason to stop people selling annual leave.
Officially the union is against rest day working and it is only 'sanctioned' with the agreement revisited periodically. In reality, of course, RDW is the tune that many drivers dance to and toys would be seriously chucked out the pram if it was stopped. If it was stopped the companies would have to recruit more drivers to cover the work, but there are always people who want more money... i can think of plenty of drivers who would still top 60 rest days a year even if our basic was £200k. That's all well and good for them, but it annoys me when rest day grabbers moan about the wages. All the while they are smashing them and covering the work at the current rate, what incentive is there for the firm to offer improvements?
 

dctraindriver

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It's a major issue at my TOC. As mentioned previously in another thread. It can be exacerbated because other depots manage it. I have found that it varies at other TOCs with some being more successful than others.

COVID has been an eye opener. The drop in services means there has been a surplus of staff. Many people went sick or had to isolate or shield. The net result as been an almost elimination of Rest day working (we still used rest day workers) and and a significant impact on Driver welfare. I've worked more hours (but got paid for it) but I also sat spare for a change. Not many but getting the odd break here and there and having enough Drivers that diagrams aren't pushed to the absolute limit has been a godsend. The 'railway' is actually working for a change.

It highlights how tight everything is and how much or a surplus is truly needed to ensure services run on time, staff are available, leave can be granted, training gets covered, etc.

FYI our 'leave quota' is 1; if cover is available. Come December there is always mad rush to book outstanding leave specifically so it can get declined and carried over.

Sounds like your TOC has quite a few more issues around booking leave than where I am. I think I’ve only had one time where I couldn’t get time off. Easier said than done I guess but would you consider moving to another TOC near you?
 

theironroad

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I'm surprised you have so much trouble booking leave. At my TOC, there is a fixed percentage of the depot allowed to book leave on any one day, as long as that number hasn't been reached, the company have to accept your leave request. In practice, the leave quota only ever gets full up in school holidays so you can pretty much get whatever days you want off.

Same here. If I've understood comutor's posts correctly they have no system of booking ad hoc leave which is very surprising.

I can't remember our AH depot quota, but if for example its 10 per day (that's on top of block annual leave), then providing your application is one of those 10, it will come back as granted. It's then immovable. Can be booked upto 365 days before the day required. If quota is full, then it's find a swap or take a chance at 36hr sheet.

I don't really get what comutor wants, in that 'they can always find cover for sickness etc'. If everyone who wanted ad hoc leave was granted it, because 'theyll always find cover' then there'd be mass cancellations as jobs go uncovered because loads of people have been granted leave.

Maybe I'm missing something here :)
 

ComUtoR

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Same here. If I've understood comutor's posts correctly they have no system of booking ad hoc leave which is very surprising.


This is our 'system'

If you want a leave day - You email the roster clerk. Generally by the next day he tells you your number (how many in the queue you are).
We are not allowed to book for next year until September of this year.
No requests are guaranteed


That's it. Nothing else. Not guaranteed in any way and they can grant or decline right up to 2 days before the daily sheet is posted. Even if you are first in the list you are still not guaranteed to have the day granted. If we had a proper system like your then I would be a VERY happy bunny.

Maybe it truly is just my TOC that sucks
 

Tomnick

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This is our 'system'

If you want a leave day - You email the roster clerk. Generally by the next day he tells you your number (how many in the queue you are).
We are not allowed to book for next year until September of this year.
No requests are guaranteed


That's it. Nothing else. Not guaranteed in any way and they can grant or decline right up to 2 days before the daily sheet is posted. Even if you are first in the list you are still not guaranteed to have the day granted. If we had a proper system like your then I would be a VERY happy bunny.

Maybe it truly is just my TOC that sucks
That sounds like a very poor agreement indeed!

As others do, we have a quota - broadly, number of drivers multiplied by the number of days of (daily) leave that each is entitled to, divided by 365. The spare ratio in the links should be set with that in mind, i.e. to ensure that there's enough capacity to allow everyone to take their full leave entitlement without relying on RDW. We've got an extra one on top of that whilst the rest day working agreement remains in place. As long as the quota hasn't been reached, i.e. in our case you're no later than fourth in the queue, you're guaranteed it off. If you're later than that, then you're back to waiting for the sheets to go up. It's a fair system generally, although obviously the figure itself is always up for discussion! They should take into account any gaps in the weekly leave allocation too although that you can't rely on that until nearer the time (to allow for swaps).
 

Llanigraham

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Generally, yes. Or they might send the relief driver in a taxi to the nearest station, if there’s no depot at the same location.

I've known freight drivers to be relieved whilst waiting in the goods loop at Woofferton Junct.
 

jimfrst

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Southeastern used to have "committed hours" or "annualised hours" as it was also known, but it was got rid of a few years ago as mentioned above.

C2C and Eurostar also had committed/annualised hours as well at some point, I believe. Does anyone if they still have?

I don't think Freightliner Intermodal do, but most other FOCs seem to have this system.
At c2c they were called banked hours but not had them for 5 years or more now.
 
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