How long should customers retain their ticket for, after they have alighted from the train?

[Brissle Girl]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/train-fine-straight-to-court.206923/

I've certainly seen my 20 year old son go to leave his ticket on the train when alighting at our unstaffed station, on the assumption that the journey is over and there will be nobody there to check it. But of course, GWR does occasionally post revenue inspectors there, so it's a risk that I've made him aware of. So I have a lot of sympathy for the predicament the OP is in - difficult to know how much more the railway could do to make people aware of their responsibility.

The same son also sometimes leaves post unopened for weeks, even when it's from his bank (and not a statement, so I would be ultra-curious to know why they are writing to me). Other child appears similarly indifferent to post sent to her, even leaving birthday cards unopened for days. So, whilst I'm not suggesting that it's the case here, the mindset of a generation which is used to getting communication electronically appears to be that nothing important is ever delivered to the front door, (at least not that fits through the letterbox, the Amazon parcel of course is a different matter).

Either that or we didn't bring our children up properly, before anyone suggests it!

 

[Western Sunset]

Back in the day when I were a lad, I'm sure the trolleybuses had a slot by the exit labelled "used tickets".

I know the posts on this forum aren't really typical of the overall scene, but I get the impression that every minor transgression by passengers/customers (often totally unintended) from the letter of the law set by the railways, results in some penalty (or criminal conviction) out of all proportion to the offence.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I've certainly seen my 20 year old son go to leave his ticket on the train when alighting at our unstaffed station, on the assumption that the journey is over and there will be nobody there to check it. But of course, GWR does occasionally post revenue inspectors there, so it's a risk that I've made him aware of. So I have a lot of sympathy for the predicament the OP is in - difficult to know how much more the railway could do to make people aware of their responsibility.

The same son also sometimes leaves post unopened for weeks, even when it's from his bank (and not a statement, so I would be ultra-curious to know why they are writing to me). Other child appears similarly indifferent to post sent to her, even leaving birthday cards unopened for days. So, whilst I'm not suggesting that it's the case here, the mindset of a generation which is used to getting communication electronically appears to be that nothing important is ever delivered to the front door, (at least not that fits through the letterbox, the Amazon parcel of course is a different matter).

Either that or we didn't bring our children up properly, before anyone suggests it!

I definitely don't think that such a generalisation would be entirely accurate, though you're correct that there are some young people who don't really know how to do "old fashioned" things like sending letters, writing or cashing cheques etc.

 

[najaB]

I know the posts on this forum aren't really typical of the overall scene, but I get the impression that every minor transgression by passengers/customers (often totally unintended) from the letter of the law set by the railways, results in some penalty (or criminal conviction) out of all proportion to the offence.

That is definitely not the case. I have seen and received discretion more often than I've seen enforcement action taken.

 

[SteveM70]

I've certainly seen my 20 year old son go to leave his ticket on the train when alighting at our unstaffed station, on the assumption that the journey is over and there will be nobody there to check it. But of course, GWR does occasionally post revenue inspectors there, so it's a risk that I've made him aware of. So I have a lot of sympathy for the predicament the OP is in - difficult to know how much more the railway could do to make people aware of their responsibility.

The same son also sometimes leaves post unopened for weeks, even when it's from his bank (and not a statement, so I would be ultra-curious to know why they are writing to me). Other child appears similarly indifferent to post sent to her, even leaving birthday cards unopened for days. So, whilst I'm not suggesting that it's the case here, the mindset of a generation which is used to getting communication electronically appears to be that nothing important is ever delivered to the front door, (at least not that fits through the letterbox, the Amazon parcel of course is a different matter).

Either that or we didn't bring our children up properly, before anyone suggests it!

Two of my kids are exactly the same.

The other is now very wary of travelling by train and is super careful about tickets after a horrendous experience at the hands of three of Northern’s finest.

The worst thing of all, of course, is that I occasionally find myself asking why they’re like this, kids these days etc etc, and then halfway through realise I’ve turned into my dad

 

[SargeNpton]

Back in the day when I were a lad, I'm sure the trolleybuses had a slot by the exit labelled "used tickets".

I know the posts on this forum aren't really typical of the overall scene, but I get the impression that every minor transgression by passengers/customers (often totally unintended) from the letter of the law set by the railways, results in some penalty (or criminal conviction) out of all proportion to the offence.

Buses, trams and trolleybuses all had such bins; but then you didn't get ticket checks on exiting the vehicle onto the public highway. For trains it's different as you are on railway premises and are still effectively on your journey until such time as you have left the platform.

 

[MotCO]

are still effectively on your journey until such time as you have left the platform.

Some would argue that you are still on your journey and should retain your ticket until you have left railway premises, and even a bit beyond.

 

[SargeNpton]

The station concourse, car park and anywhere else on the "landward" side of the ticket barriers/platform line are not part of the journey show you do not need to show a valid ticket to be present there. However, a police officer or an agent of the railway can ask you to leave railway premises if they believe that your presence there breaks one of the by-laws (in much the same way that you can be asked to leave any other private property).

 

[221129]

The station concourse, car park and anywhere else on the "landward" side of the ticket barriers/platform line are not part of the journey

Is that fact or just your opinion?

 

[najaB]

The station concourse, car park and anywhere else on the "landward" side of the ticket barriers/platform line are not part of the journey...

That would complicate break of journey rules, no?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

and even a bit beyond.

It might be sensible, in practice, given certain "aggressive" practices that have been known to be employed by RPIs or contract security "heavies", but there's certainly no obligation to retain your ticket for inspection once you've left the paid area of the station. Railway Byelaws only apply on railway land so beyond that, RPIs etc. would have to rely on other powers to do anything.

 

[SargeNpton]

That would complicate break of journey rules, no?

A break of journey is exactly that! Something that is not part of the railway journey.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Is that fact or just your opinion?

The Byelaws only give an authorised person the authority to demand someone's name and address where they "reasonably suspect" someone has committed/attempted a Byelaw breach. So unless the authorised person has actually seen someone leave a train, or they have ensured that all of the station up until the car park exit is devoid of non-travelling members of the public before their 'sting' starts, they're not going to have grounds for such reasonable suspicion merely because someone is leaving the station car park, for example.

Yes, the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 imbues additional powers on officers and servants of the railway company, but these apply only to a "passenger by a railway". Given the presumption of innocence, it would therefore again fall on the prosecution to prove that the defendant came under such a description.

It is true that neither the Byelaws nor RoRA explicitly state the point until which you must keep your ticket (except inasmuch as the Byelaws' application is limited to railway land, which would probably be the Network Rail property boundary).

However, for any prosecution for failure to provide a ticket or name & address to succeed, the prosecution would have to (or could be invited to) prove that you were a passenger at all. If they simply stop people leaving a station building, where such measures as described above haven't been (or can't be) done, that is unlikely to meet the test of "beyond reasonable doubt".

So, for all practical purposes, yes it is just @SargeNpton's view, but it is likely to hold up in Court if it came to it.

 

[najaB]

A break of journey is exactly that! Something that is not part of the railway journey.

Exactly. If we narrowly define 'the railway' to be the platform area then if a visit the station toilets (which are often 'landside') means that I would no longer have a valid ticket where break of journey is prohibited.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Exactly. If we narrowly define 'the railway' to be the platform area then if a visit the station toilets (which are often 'landside') means that I would no longer have a valid ticket where break of journey is prohibited.

All break of journey restrictions I have seen have included the wording "except to use station facilities".

 

[najaB]

All break of journey restrictions I have seen have included the wording "except to use station facilities".

I have never seen that particular wording. The T&Cs for Advance tickets say:

6. Break of journey
6.1 You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

 

[SargeNpton]

From the railway bylaws:

17. Compulsory Ticket Areas (1) No person shall enter a compulsory ticket area on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket.

I would guess that most, if not all stations, have signs up that indicate where that area is.

Downloadable here: https://assets.publishing.service.g...attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf

And the National Rail conditions of carriage: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actually very few stations have a Compulsory Ticket Area. It's only something you have in Penalty Fares areas, and even then not all of them.

 

[SargeNpton]

Actually very few stations have a Compulsory Ticket Area. It's only something you have in Penalty Fares areas, and even then not all of them.

I'd suggest that for any station with either gateline or any other sort of ticket check, the area beyond that point is in reality a compulsory ticket area. Try getting past it without either a travel ticket or a platform ticket and see how far you get.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd suggest that for any station with either gateline or any other sort of ticket check, the area beyond that point is in reality a compulsory ticket area. Try getting past it without either a travel ticket or a platform ticket and see how far you get.

It may be a compulsory ticket area (i.e. nobody will let you in without one), but it is not a Compulsory Ticket Area, whcih is something with a very specific legal meaning with regard to the Penalty Fares rules.

In a Compulsory Ticket Area you can be charged a Penalty Fare (£20) for simply being inside it without either a ticket to travel or if offered a platform ticket. Outside of one, you cannot - only if there is reasonable suspicion that you actually did travel can a PF or other enforcement be applicable. That doesn't relate to whether you'll be let in without one if any barriers are closed - it not being a CTA doesn't give you right of access without a ticket, but does mean, provided you haven't travelled, that you can't be subject to any enforcement (other than being chucked out under trespass law) for being in there.

Most TOCs do not apply CTAs to their Penalty Fares schemes (so you can only receive a PF if you are believed to have travelled), and CTAs do not apply at all where Penalty Fares do not apply.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Are Platform Tickets actually still available? In recent years, only ever seen them on heritage railways.

 

[NorthWestRover]

The bins at Padgate are on the platform a couple of feet before you pass through the gate. So, in theory you shouldn't use the bin for your ticket although you'll probably know if there is someone checking tickets by that point. Once you've walked off the platform and into the car park, presumably they couldn't demand a ticket? That's from Liverpool/Warrington. Arriving from Manchester is a little different as again you pass the bin as you walk off the platform, but this time onto a ramp/footpath to the road. Surely someone checking tickets couldn't wait at the far end of the path and ask for a ticket you'd deposited in the very helpful bin placed at what most people would view as the exit to the station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are Platform Tickets actually still available? In recent years, only ever seen them on heritage railways.

They were in 2009 at least:

Platform ticket for Kings Cross - Wikimedia Commons

 

[LAX54]

I definitely don't think that such a generalisation would be entirely accurate, though you're correct that there are some young people who don't really know how to do "old fashioned" things like sending letters, writing or cashing cheques etc.

We have a guy here, sorry, bit off topic, but, unless it is electronic, then he does not want to know! not even sure he knows what a £5 note looks like will not buy DVD's /Blu Ray "old hat" proudly says he has NEVER watched a black and white TV show or Film

 

[Mcr Warrior]

They were in 2009 at least:

Platform ticket for Kings Cross - Wikimedia Commons

Yep, seen that, thanks. 11+ years old, hence my query!

 

[Rich McLean]

Best advice I got given by an RPI was to keep your tickets on you until you have exited the station and some distance away.

 

[Blinkbonny]

Are Platform Tickets actually still available? In recent years, only ever seen them on heritage railways.

I bought one last year when I wished to view Haymarket station after traveling there on the tram.

The ticket clerk was a bit eye-rolling, and it didn't work the barriers. The guy who let me through was a bit nonplussed by it but was happy to oblige.

 

[yorksrob]

Are Platform Tickets actually still available? In recent years, only ever seen them on heritage railways.

I bought one from Manchester Oxford Road last year. It cost 10p

 

[pdq]

Did Pacers have ticket bins or am I imagining it?

 

[AM9]

Best advice I got given by an RPI was to keep your tickets on you until you have exited the station and some distance away.

I can't understand this overbearing panic to get rid of a ticket as soon as possible. It can't be that they are too heavy to carry. Anybody who really can't control the urge to not have their ticket available when still on railway premises, (and a station car park is not sufficiently clear to be absolutely sure), really needs to think their actions through.