Train hits buffers at Victoria (08/05)

[RichardKing]

Reports of the 17:06 ex-East Grinstead hitting the buffers at Victoria, platform 19. The unit involved is 377 142. Delays expected well into the evening as platforms 19 and 18 are both blocked.

https://twitter.com/helengibbons/status/1126175227728232448

Crowded Southern train just hit the buffers at London Victoria. Passengers exiting, no apparent injuries.

https://twitter.com/RJG18/status/1126171491190571009

Train just crashed into buffers at Victoria station. Loud bang.. lots of smoke and dust!

 

[Adlington]

Also reported in the Evening Standard, but with virtually no additional information (as of 19:32).

A commuter train has reportedly ploughed into the buffers at Victoria station causing a long bang and smoke on a platform.

Pictures from the busy station at rush hour on Wednesday shows staff crowding around a Southern Rail train at around 6pm.

“The train I was on dramatically crashed into the barrier at Victoria station,” one passenger wrote.

Southern Rail confirmed an “operational incident” had taken place at Victoria station.

 

[Mag_seven]

Looks from the pictures like a low speed collision - all this melodramatic stuff in the press / TV about "ploughing into the buffers" on the face of it could not be further from the truth.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Looks from the pictures like a low speed collision - all this melodramatic stuff in the press / TV about "ploughing into the buffers" on the face of it could not be further from the truth.

I know. The ITV headline, “Train crashes through the buffer”.

 

[Llanigraham]

Must be a VERY slow news day!!

 

[nickswift99]

Are the set of buffers on Platform 18 normally aligned with those on 19 or are they offset?

 

[Alanko]

A bit of a non-event. This is why we have buffers, no?

 

[aleggatta]

A bit of a non-event. This is why we have buffers, no?

I don't think any buffers are put in at platforms to be used to stop the train under normal circumstances, so being that they had to stop the train would indicate that it is very much not a normal circumstance, and as such an event as opposed to a non-event.

 

[Adlington]

Same with crash barriers on motorways....

 

[trainmania100]

Drivers usually pull in close to the buffers when the at a station, clearly this time it got a bit too close. Evidently the driver will be quite shaken up but thankfully noone was injured.
What usually happens in this case for the driver, does the driver usually return to work next day or only return after full investigation

 

[Adlington]

What usually happens in this case for the driver, does the driver usually return to work next day or only return after full investigation

I think the first step is to test the driver for alcohol and drugs. When/if the driver returns to work obviously depends on the result...

 

[swt_passenger]

Are the set of buffers on Platform 18 normally aligned with those on 19 or are they offset?

They’ll have slid along the rails as they are designed to do. That movement gives a progressive increase in retardation, as they pick up more of the friction clamps on the railhead.

 

[randyrippley]

If trains still had proper buffers and drawgear then there would have been minimal or nil damage to the coach..........

 

[Deepgreen]

A bit of a non-event. This is why we have buffers, no?

We have buffers at stations to stop trains over-running onto the concourse. They are NOT there to stop trains in the normal course of events, when there should be no contact between train and buffers. Given the damage to the unit, this was very obviously not a "non-event", but neither was it the drama that the news has conjured up!

 

[bramling]

A bit of a non-event. This is why we have buffers, no?

Lest we remember several people died during a low-speed collision with the stop blocks at Cannon Street in 1991, so it’s never a total non-event. The nasty thing with a low-speed collision is no one is expecting anything, so it can catch people completely off guard - especially those standing in readiness to alight.

However equally a sense of proportion is required.

 

[Surreytraveller]

We have buffers at stations to stop trains over-running onto the concourse. They are NOT there to stop trains in the normal course of events, when there should be no contact between train and buffers. Given the damage to the unit, this was very obviously not a "non-event", but neither was it the drama that the news has conjured up!

They're only designed to bring a train to a controlled stop from about 4mph following a misjudgement if braking or other some-such issue. If a train enters a terminal platform with enough energy to overrun onto a concourse, buffers won't stop it. That's what TPWS is for.
Also, there is probably minimal damage to the unit. The coupler is designed to absorb the energy from a low-speed collision (like traditional buffers), so probably all will be fine

 

[Deepgreen]

They're only designed to bring a train to a controlled stop from about 4mph following a misjudgement if braking or other some-such issue. If a train enters a terminal platform with enough energy to overrun onto a concourse, buffers won't stop it. That's what TPWS is for.
Also, there is probably minimal damage to the unit. The coupler is designed to absorb the energy from a low-speed collision (like traditional buffers), so probably all will be fine

It's way off to suggest that 4mph (fast walking) is the limit of effectiveness - it depends on the design of buffers, but, for example, the massive hydraulic buffers at Waterloo could cope with far more. TPWS also only works if the brakes do. You say "there is probably minimal damage", but the picture I saw (from a link to the Evening Standard on this thread) shows significant cracking around the headlights, etc.

 

[Deepgreen]

Lest we remember several people died during a low-speed collision with the stop blocks at Cannon Street in 1991, so it’s never a total non-event. The nasty thing with a low-speed collision is no one is expecting anything, so it can catch people completely off guard - especially those standing in readiness to alight.

However equally a sense of proportion is required.

Lest we forget, surely?

 

[swt_passenger]

It's way off to suggest that 4mph (fast walking) is the limit of effectiveness - it depends on the design of buffers, but, for example, the massive hydraulic buffers at Waterloo could cope with far more. TPWS also only works if the brakes do. You say "there is probably minimal damage", but the picture I saw (from a link to the Evening Standard on this thread) shows significant cracking around the headlights, etc.

Sacrificial GRP over the structural elements, I expect.

 

[bramling]

Lest we forget, surely?

One way or other it will have been an unpleasant incident for the driver, not least as they will have been sat there for the aftermath and quite possibly taken some stick as the whole train load of people walk past, which was something else that happened at Cannon Street. Hopefully today’s incident was several orders of magnitude less serious.

 

[Surreytraveller]

It's way off to suggest that 4mph (fast walking) is the limit of effectiveness - it depends on the design of buffers, but, for example, the massive hydraulic buffers at Waterloo could cope with far more. TPWS also only works if the brakes do. You say "there is probably minimal damage", but the picture I saw (from a link to the Evening Standard on this thread) shows significant cracking around the headlights, etc.

Cracking around the headlights is superficial damage. Do you know how much energy a train travelling at 4mph has? I believe the train involved in the Canon Street crash was travelling at about 5mph - have you seen the pictures from that crash?
The friction buffers such as those at Victoria are far more effective at bringing a train to a controlled stop than the older hydraulic buffers such as those at Waterloo - otherwise we'd have hydraulic buffers everywhere, surely?

 

[RichardKing]

https://twitter.com/helengibbons/status/1126200669961113601/photo/2
A further photo has been posted, which shows how far forward the buffers have been shunted. You can just about see the position of the train on the adjacent platform (platform 18), which is where the train should've stopped.

 

[swt_passenger]

https://twitter.com/helengibbons/status/1126200669961113601/photo/2
A further photo has been posted, which shows how far forward the buffers have been shunted. You can just see part of the train on the adjacent platform (platform 18), which is where the train should've stopped.

But please let’s not forget that’s exactly how they are designed to work. It’s what that long space is there for, and at some stations the space runs underneath what is referred to as a “frangible deck”. When one of those is used in anger there should be scope for far more exaggeration...

 

[big all]

Cracking around the headlights is superficial damage. Do you know how much energy a train travelling at 4mph has? I believe the train involved in the Canon Street crash was travelling at about 5mph - have you seen the pictures from that crash?
The friction buffers such as those at Victoria are far more effective at bringing a train to a controlled stop than the older hydraulic buffers such as those at Waterloo - otherwise we'd have hydraulic buffers everywhere, surely?

the problem with 91 cannon street crash is you have a mono central buffer onto a wooden wear block on next coach and nothing else between intermediate coaches
you also have recycled under frames in true southern style from a 1934 then 59 year old underframe and a single buffer with the obviouse deformation causing over rididing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon_Street_station_rail_crash

 

[74A]

the problem with 91 cannon street crash is you have a mono central buffer onto a wooden wear block on next coach and nothing else between intermediate coaches
you also have recycled under frames in true southern style from a 1934 then 59 year old underframe and a single buffer with the obviouse deformation causing over rididing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon_Street_station_rail_crash

Also the strength on the coach was considerably weakened due to all the doors already being open before the collision. Things have moved on a bit since then !

 

[bluesfromagun]

Drivers usually pull in close to the buffers when the at a station, clearly this time it got a bit too close. Evidently the driver will be quite shaken up but thankfully noone was injured.
What usually happens in this case for the driver, does the driver usually return to work next day or only return after full investigation

Six feet is generally the distance to stop short of any obstruction (buffers, another train, etc). Normally what will happen now is the driver concerned will get medscreened, interviewed in depth, the set will be downloaded (OTMR), mechanically checked, likewise any infrastructure involved checked over. The TPWS didn't stop the train, so it had to have been travelling very slowly, under 10mph anyway. Generally these things are due to a lapse on drivers part, done everything right, braked the train to a slow speed, had everything under control, and then at the last minute for whatever reason, distraction, putting his or her jacket on, maybe even dropped a pen and picked it up or something - had a momentary lapse. The driver will not drive again until the investigation has closed, and if its found they were to blame, then what happens next is dependent on how many (if any) incidents they've had before. If it's one in a long line of mishaps, then they may not drive again. If its their first incident, then they will probably go on some kind of retraining or plan to heavily monitor their drive for a year or so. It's a very unforgiving job.

 

[Bovverboy]

Deepgreen said: ↑
It's way off to suggest that 4mph (fast walking) is the limit of effectiveness - it depends on the design of buffers, but, for example, the massive hydraulic buffers at Waterloo could cope with far more. TPWS also only works if the brakes do. You say "there is probably minimal damage", but the picture I saw (from a link to the Evening Standard on this thread) shows significant cracking around the headlights, etc.

Cracking around the headlights is superficial damage. Do you know how much energy a train travelling at 4mph has? I believe the train involved in the Canon Street crash was travelling at about 5mph - have you seen the pictures from that crash?

According to the Wikipedia page (link available in post #25, above), the enquiry apparently decided that the speed of the Cannon Street collision was about 10mph, i.e. noticeably higher than had earlier been estimated.

 

[ComUtoR]

Iit depends on the design of buffers, but, for example, the massive hydraulic buffers at Waterloo could cope with far more.

A quick read of the Cannon Street enquiry, it states that; Sliding buffers might have minimised the injuries compared to hydraulic ones.

 

[t_star2001uk]

If you look at the Twitter pics there is a white line painted on the railhead. That is generally where the stops would have been located.

 

[pdeaves]

Must be a VERY slow news day!!

Evidently, not quite slow enough...