"Train is between ..." message on platform screens

[brad465]

I saw this for the first time at Borough Green & Wrotham earlier this week. Interestingly as this station still relies on electron-gun style monitors (if that's the correct term for them), installing the location tracking on monitors is not limited to the most modern monitor display

 

[whhistle]

"Delayed" typically gets put up automatically when the Expected time is increasing by one minute every minute, i.e. the train is stationary. It is I guess a response to people saying that was ridiculous.

When the system was implimented, the "Delayed" trigger was at 5 minutes of no movement.
At a later date, it was reduced to 3 minutes as requested by Arriva Trains Wales (if I remember correctly!) and no other TOC was against the change. No source, but I was at the very same meeting when the change was implimented.

It also transpired different people around the country prefer different things.
Some don't mind it showing "Delayed", others prefer an increasing delay time.

The problem comes in where if you estimate a delay time, say 15 minutes, then the problem is fixed much sooner (so only 5 minutes of delay), some customers may have left the station to get a sandwich and then may miss their train.

The only way to solve that problem is by using "Delayed" - which then causes "by how long?" questions. The road usually leads to a bit of frustration when the answer is "Don't know" - yet on a motorway, people are accepting a long delay has no time frame.
I question why the railway has to define a delay period, yet a motorway does not.

 

[londonbridge]

Could’ve done with this last week at Newcastle. Have posted details of my experience in the thread on purchasing tickets after a delay is known about but this would have helped with my decision making at the time.

More than once I’ve been at Clapham when the screen says delayed and the announcer will come on saying “passengers on platform 13 awaiting the xx:xx to Brighton, this train has now left Victoria and should arrive in the next five to six minutes.

 

[ainsworth74]

Passenger information relied on what I will call an ‘open Tannoy’ from Rochester signalbox

I can remember once benefiting from similar arrangements at Longbeck (small, unmanned station) when the automatic PA system (and this was before we benefited from screens as well) must have been on the blink. I was stood on the platform waiting for a train that failed to appear. Suddenly there was a "Excuse me! You, on the platform!" and the signaller was leaning out of his window and proceeded to tell me that it'd be at least another hour before a train would appear. This would have been in the early 00s maybe 2004ish

 

[Frontera2]

When the system was implimented, the "Delayed" trigger was at 5 minutes of no movement.
At a later date, it was reduced to 3 minutes as requested by Arriva Trains Wales (if I remember correctly!) and no other TOC was against the change. No source, but I was at the very same meeting when the change was implimented.

It also transpired different people around the country prefer different things.
Some don't mind it showing "Delayed", others prefer an increasing delay time.

The problem comes in where if you estimate a delay time, say 15 minutes, then the problem is fixed much sooner (so only 5 minutes of delay), some customers may have left the station to get a sandwich and then may miss their train.

The only way to solve that problem is by using "Delayed" - which then causes "by how long?" questions. The road usually leads to a bit of frustration when the answer is "Don't know" - yet on a motorway, people are accepting a long delay has no time frame.
I question why the railway has to define a delay period, yet a motorway does not.

The default “Delayed” threshold in Darwin is whichever comes first from the below:

- No movement data received from 2 or more expected reporting points

- No movement report received for 5 minutes when expected ( this deals with the long section scenario )

Some operators have bespoke configurations such as ATW as you’ve alluded to but the majority haven’t.

I’ve been professionally involved with Darwin ( previously RTTI ) and its development since 2001 so may well have been at the same meeting!

 

[jon0844]

The situation can also arise depending on how the signaller sets up a route when a train is coming out of a yard as 5xxx and becomes 2xxx. I can't think of the exact specifics but it can show as delayed even when the service is on time.

 

[Frontera2]

The situation can also arise depending on how the signaller sets up a route when a train is coming out of a yard as 5xxx and becomes 2xxx. I can't think of the exact specifics but it can show as delayed even when the service is on time.

Exactly right, if the wrong digit is in the TD berth Darwin will show it as delayed after a period of time

 

[goblinuser]

It's certainly a good feature which adds to customer experience. Keeping people informed of exactly where their train is will reduce frustration whilst people are waiting.

 

[mrcheek]

Although in times of disruption it is sometimes better to get on the first train possible in the direction you are going!

I, er, "second" this! always best to get the first train, even if crowded. the second one might end up being cancelled on arrival!

 

[Sunset route]

The situation can also arise depending on how the signaller sets up a route when a train is coming out of a yard as 5xxx and becomes 2xxx. I can't think of the exact specifics but it can show as delayed even when the service is on time.

Exactly right, if the wrong digit is in the TD berth Darwin will show it as delayed after a period of time

I tend to have the outward passenger ID setup in the siding berths so the train advertised on arrival from the sidings/depot and if it already on the running line then I like to change the ID on the berth before the platform if I can, but the amount of times I’ve had the ID number in the scratchpad and it’s been left there because of other workload is more than I care to remember. Interpose oops wrong berth now man step with T111 signal at Croydon is my usual partner in crime. lol

 

[PR1Berske]

I've seen it on the flat screen departure screens at Oxford Road and a café in Preston. Very useful. I agree too that "Delayed" is more useful than ever increasing estimated times.

 

[iphone76]

The situation can also arise depending on how the signaller sets up a route when a train is coming out of a yard as 5xxx and becomes 2xxx. I can't think of the exact specifics but it can show as delayed even when the service is on time.

That's interesting to know. I often wondered why some Southend Victoria to London trains show up as delayed for a minute or two before they start then leave on time.

 

[Loop & Link]

The situation can also arise depending on how the signaller sets up a route when a train is coming out of a yard as 5xxx and becomes 2xxx. I can't think of the exact specifics but it can show as delayed even when the service is on time.

That will only happen if the train has an “Association” set up, most TOC’s have these setup but some don’t, so for example if 5A01 is shown to form 2A01 in Darwin and CIS but 5A01 is delayed, by 15 mins for example, it will automatically cascade the delay to 2A01.

That of course doesn’t apply to every TOC, an example of this is again 2A01 forms 2A02 at Station A, 2A01 is shown to arrive at 06:30 and the return is 2A02 which departs at 06:35. If 2A01 is 10 minutes late with ETA of 06:40, it will change 2A02 to a departure of 06:43, the turnaround will always be 3 minutes, unless otherwise manually altered in CIS/Tyrell.

TOC’s that don’t have associated trains won’t have this, so it won’t automatically cascade the delay from 2A01 to 2A02, even though it’s impossible that the train could be “On Time” the solution is to manually alter in CIS/Darwin or send the delay through Tyrell.

Hope that hasn’t overcomplicated anything!

 

[atraindriver]

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[fairysdad]

That will only happen if the train has an “Association” set up, most TOC’s have these setup but some don’t, so for example if 5A01 is shown to form 2A01 in Darwin and CIS but 5A01 is delayed, by 15 mins for example, it will automatically cascade the delay to 2A01.

That of course doesn’t apply to every TOC, an example of this is again 2A01 forms 2A02 at Station A, 2A01 is shown to arrive at 06:30 and the return is 2A02 which departs at 06:35. If 2A01 is 10 minutes late with ETA of 06:40, it will change 2A02 to a departure of 06:43, the turnaround will always be 3 minutes, unless otherwise manually altered in CIS/Tyrell.

TOC’s that don’t have associated trains won’t have this, so it won’t automatically cascade the delay from 2A01 to 2A02, even though it’s impossible that the train could be “On Time”. The solution is to manually alter in CIS/Darwin or send the delay through Tyrell.

Hope that hasn’t overcomplicated anything!

That's quite interesting - I wonder how many TOCs have set this up, or how much it's used, and also whether it works with cancelled 'associated' trains from the depot. There was one occasion a few months back where SWR were screwed one morning, and my normal train into Waterloo from Ewell West (ex-Guildford) was showing as cancelled, but the next one (starting at Epsom) was showing normal time... until the time approached and it started showing '1m delayed'... '2m delayed'... until it hit the cutoff point and just showed 'Delayed'. As the following service (which started before Epsom) was by now showing 'Cancelled', I checked Realtime Trains (RTT) and found that the empty stock (ECS) from the depot into Epsom to form the train hadn't left the depot. This was just a memorable morning as it was chucking down with rain, I had to get a taxi into work, and had to claim an Oyster refund for two unfinished journeys that morning! But I have seen it on SWR before where a service is shown as 'Delayed' because the incoming service (whether ECS or in passenger service) hasn't turned up on time.

Bringing us back towards the topic in hand though - this does seem like a relatively good idea, mostly if a service is late, but better for locals who know the service, and possibly more for those waiting an incoming service that is going back out again. At Waterloo when there's disruption (surely not?!) there have been manual announcements along the lines of 'Passengers for the 1801 service to Epsom, the coaches that form this service have just left Clapham Junction and will be here in approximately 15 minutes'. Useful to know as the boards just say 'Delayed', and most people catching that train will know roughly how long it takes to get between Clapham Junction and Waterloo. (Incidentally, the bloke who does the manual announcements at Waterloo has quite a good PA voice! Much better than some that I've heard!)

 

[Sunset route]

I assume that drivers automatically wildcard when setting up the GSM-R off that depot? GSM-R won't register using the signal number if the WTTID being registered is different to that set in the berth.

No the driver will still set as the class 5, just on their radio it will still show it as a class 5 until they reset it with the new running number when in the platform but our signalling diagram will the passenger ID, obversley I wait until the train is in the system and not with any train that goes off my area of control. That’s the thing I miss about the old CSR where when you changed the running number it would automatically update the radio ID in the cab at the same time notifying the driver by an audible alarm.

 

[ComUtoR]

I assume that drivers automatically wildcard when setting up the GSM-R off that depot? GSM-R won't register using the signal number if the WTTID being registered is different to that set in the berth.

Our TOC policy is to never set the wildcard without phoning the box first. It's a very quick call to find out why it won't setup and sometimes its helpful because something 'weird' may have happened...

That’s the thing I miss about the old CSR where when you changed the running number it would automatically update the radio ID in the cab at the same time notifying the driver by an audible alarm.

I totally miss the automatic headcode change. Any reason why it was removed ?

 

[Sunset route]

I totally miss the automatic headcode change. Any reason why it was removed ?

I think it’s called progress, in the same way we lost our “STOP” and “GENERAL STOP” commands in favour of having to spill out a load of verbal in a REC call, which with it’s adjoining cell coverage will bring half of south central London to stand just to stop one train.

 

[krus_aragon]

When the system was implimented, the "Delayed" trigger was at 5 minutes of no movement.
At a later date, it was reduced to 3 minutes as requested by Arriva Trains Wales (if I remember correctly!) and no other TOC was against the change.

That would make sense at Cardiff Queen St / Central, where the valleys trains ran five minutes apart, especially in the days when they only had two platforms each. Else you might have the next (undelayed) train show up before a delay is announced for the late one!

 

[atraindriver]

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[Dren Ahmeti]

There are the headcode-less shunts we have

Can you not use 0S00 in this case?

 

[nw1]

That’s pretty cool!

Mind you those are who are interested are probably tracking it in OTT RTT etc

Are joe public bothered?

It helps, as you can then gauge how late your train's likely to be.

Hopefully one day they'll have electronic maps at stations showing where each train is, that would be really useful.

 

[telstarbox]

There is now this map at Manchester Piccadilly in the lounge above Platforms 13/14.

 

[PR1Berske]

There is now this map at Manchester Piccadilly in the lounge above Platforms 13/14.

And I think looks exceptionally good.

 

[atraindriver]

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