Train leaving early?

[reb0118]

In France it clearly states on your ticket that you must be on the platform 2 minutes before the scheduled departure time. If you do not you risk some Gallic cheminot giving you shrug as your train disappears up the track.

I realise that we are not in France but surely we all know that a boarding time can not equal a departing time. If at all possible I depart my trains to be clearing the platform at the advertised time.

 

[gray1404]

Thank you @yorkie and @ForTheLoveOf! I wrote to GWR and they agreed that yes, it had departed early. And since the next train was the 9.08, so I was delayed more than an hour, they also refunded the cost of my ticket

Did you end up having to buy a new ticket or did you travel on the one you had already?

 

[Aictos]

I'd put in a Delay Repay claim. The logs do appear to show it departing a minute early from Cheltenham, Stroud and Didcot. It got to Reading 4 minutes early.

I disagree, the OP should simply have ensured they got to the station with plenty of time to catch their train not turn up with secs to go.

If they did then they wouldn't have missed their connection and being a advance ticket this is even more important that they ensure they turn up with plenty of time to allow for issues affecting their travel.

Great Northern is (well all of GTR is) doors closed 30 seconds before. Some stock will be quicker than others to lock the doors. Then there's the safety check. If all good, the train should be moving around xx:xx/50 but it can be quicker. If a 700 is waiting at WGC and arrived at xx:21 and goes at xx:26, chances are the platform is empty and the doors already auto-closed. So at 30 seconds, doors locked and bodyside lights off. Assuming all good, the train could be moving at xx:xx/40.

It must have changed then because I always remembered it as the dispatch process starting 20 seconds to booked departure time with wheels rolling right time as a result.

 

[tgrb]

The GWR 40 seconds signs have been on the platforms for as long as I can remember and are quite prominently displayed in my opinion. I’m thinking 10 years at least but happy to be corrected.

I do totally agree that as a rule of thumb the IETs are getting in early and hanging about and as a result are fairly prompt at going.

On Wednesday the 09:26 from
Chippenham to Paddingtown arrive at around 21 (RTT states 09:23.30) and was rolling by 25 (RTT states 09:25.45).

They were blowing whistles and waving there bats about at about 09:24:30

I know all this as having arrived at 09:10 I thought the cafe would have long enough to make me a sausage sandwich and a coffee for the journey. The sandwich making was slow the train was early. I did comment this to the gate line staff I was stood by on the wrong side of the foot bridge, and they trotted out the 40 second thing, I raised my eyebrow, looked at the clock above us and went and eat my breakfast in the waiting room!

As I could see all this happening it was a bit frustrating but I wasn’t in a rush and didn’t want to forfeit my breakfast - GWR do though need to be pulled on on this, I can live with the 40 seconds but more is taking the wotsit.

The 40 seconds I think is sufficiently advertised- at least to the regular passenger, I do think though having just read my latest email confirmation it should be added to this though, I think it states it on the website and during the booking process but it’s not particularly prominent.

 

[Vasco Troni]

Not discussing what timing is proper to each kind of train, just remembering that there is a schedule to keep and that the passengers must wait for the train and not otherwise.

Even I could feel outraged by missing a train that is yet stopped but with doors already locked, but on the other hand, as a passenger inside that same train -or waiting for that same train at another station- I'd feel very pleased to know that measures are being taken to make sure the train keeps running on time. And there is also safety concerns: it is true that the train staff could be kind to let late passengers in, but on the other hand, late passengers when running on the platform can also be a security issue, so...

Been a Train Driver for 16 years, but also been a passenger for 40 years, so this is kind of a mixed-feeling opinion, but I believe it is a quite fair point-of-view.

Just an opinion.

 

[jon0844]

GTR introduced 'pit stop' (40 seconds) ahead of May 2018.

Whistle 20 seconds past, 30 seconds CD, RA once safety checks complete.

 

[Aictos]

GTR introduced 'pit stop' (40 seconds) ahead of May 2018.

Whistle 20 seconds past, 30 seconds CD, RA once safety checks complete.

It used to be whistle at 20 seconds to the departure time, check doors, CD at 10 secs to the departure time and then RA once safety checks completed.

The only services which had the 40 second rule back then was the IC services.

 

[jon0844]

It used to be whistle at 20 seconds to the departure time, check doors, CD at 10 secs to the departure time and then RA once safety checks completed.

The only services which had the 40 second rule back then was the IC services.

Yes wheels rolling on the minute was the norm. Now the train should be half way out by then.

 

[Aictos]

Yes wheels rolling on the minute was the norm. Now the train should be half way out by then.

Did they really have to change the times of dispatching? Has it had any impact on dispatch times? Could they have just kept the old system which worked for years without being tampered with...?

 

[jon0844]

Did they really have to change the times of dispatching? Has it had any impact on dispatch times? Could they have just kept the old system which worked for years without being tampered with...?

Yes, because of the need to keep trains on time for fear of causing problems in the core.

 

[Aictos]

I thought they solved that issue by skip stopping everywhere

 

[gray1404]

I think you got really lucky here getting your money back. Either the person looking at it was in a good mood, they didn't understand the system and didn't check in detail and just saw 1 early. GWR would have been entitled to say that they close the doors 40 seconds before departure so no refund. I am, of course, glad that you got a good outcome on this. I know what it is like to just miss a train, that you would have been fine getting if they didn't close doors early.

I do think that 2 minutes before departure at Euston (and maybe others) is too far in advance. Moreover given LNW only start 30 seconds before (even on their 8 or 12 coach peak time services) so maybe for Virgin, one minute would be more reasonable. I also think that such information should be made clear when buying tickets. Otherwise it cannot be said to be a condition of contract.

 

[jon0844]

FCC tried 1 minute or maybe even 2, and eventually backtracked as that was really too early for a commuter train. For IC trains, 1-2 minutes makes sense IMO.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I disagree, the OP should simply have ensured they got to the station with plenty of time to catch their train not turn up with secs to go.

Is it too much to ask that, if TOCs wish to play the statistics by departing before the "departure time", they advertise the fact that doors close well before the advertised "departure time" before you buy your ticket - e.g. online or at the ticket office/machine?

It really is a rail industry anachronism, this idea that, because the railway has "always" done something a particular way, and because they have put up a sign saying that that is the way they do it (after the critical moment, where you buy your ticket), that makes it OK!

You don't have this problem with airlines, for example - they clearly tell you before you buy your ticket that you must be there early. Fair enough. But if the rail industry wants to play that (dubious) game, they must tell people, and at the appropriate point!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

GWR would have been entitled to say that they close the doors 40 seconds before departure so no refund

If they tell people before buying, fair enough. But they don't, in fact no TOC does. It's no good pointing to signs that people only see once they've missed the train.

If a train leaves materially early, and the passenger misses it as a result, it has effectively not run at all, and so there is no reason to say they haven't been delayed.

 

[najaB]

You don't have this problem with airlines, for example - they clearly tell you before you buy your ticket that you must be there early. Fair enough. But if the rail industry wants to play that (dubious) game, they must tell people, and at the appropriate point!

First off, I'd hardly call two minutes before departure of an inter-city journey from the starting station "early", and secondly a link to the T&C's is presented when buying Advance tickets, and they state:

You must be at the departure station shown on your ticket in good time to catch the train. If you miss the first train on which you are booked for any reason, a new ticket must be purchased.

True, they don't specify an exact time but I refer you back to my first point.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

First off, I'd hardly call two minutes before departure of an inter-city journey from the starting station "early", and secondly a link to the T&C's is presented when buying Advance tickets, and they state:
True, they don't specify an exact time but I refer you back to my first point.

If they want to be able to let train doors close 2 minutes before the booked departure time, they should qualify what exactly "in good time" means. At the moment that is far too wishy-washy for that to be acceptable practice. And by no means are the Advance summary terms linked to on all methods of ticket retailing (nor do they appear when buying a walk-up ticket, where the exact same issue, less the issue of potentially needing a new ticket, could arise).

 

[gray1404]

I think 2 minutes is excessive. 30 seconds however is reasonable, but no more then that because in reality is takes only a couple of seconds for most passengers to simply get on a train. The rail industry could really sort this out without even involving the passengers. Have a 30 second network wide rule and then use the WTT too their advantage. I notice a number of TOC do this already i.e. if train is in public timetable to leave at 00:00 then the WTT will be something like 00:30. That way there is that 30 seconds to play with and makes it easier for both staff and passengers.

 

[najaB]

I think 2 minutes is excessive.

Two minutes is the exception - it only applies to long-distance services at their starting stations (and in practice is rarely enforced). Almost everywhere else it is between 30 and 45 seconds.

 

[Kite159]

Isn't it 2 minutes when the gates are closed at Euston rather than 2 minutes when the train doors close, only really enforced at Euston with pre-boarding checks

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes wheels rolling on the minute was the norm. Now the train should be half way out by then.

That's ridiculous. Change the timetable then!

Having a train timed to depart at 10:10 that is actually half way out of the station at 10:09:30 is a 10:09 service. It's as bad as the way magazines seem to publish a month or sometimes two early these days. I can understand "wheels start rolling at precisely the timetabled time" (as it is for aircraft), but not what you suggest which has only one description - wilful early running which should not be tolerated.

Isn't it 2 minutes when the gates are closed at Euston rather than 2 minutes when the train doors close, only really enforced at Euston with pre-boarding checks

It's very specifically the gates closing which is intended to allow enough time for people to get to the train and board safely without running. The train itself is supposed to start rolling at the published time.

I think 2 minutes is excessive. 30 seconds however is reasonable, but no more then that because in reality is takes only a couple of seconds for most passengers to simply get on a train. The rail industry could really sort this out without even involving the passengers. Have a 30 second network wide rule and then use the WTT too their advantage. I notice a number of TOC do this already i.e. if train is in public timetable to leave at 00:00 then the WTT will be something like 00:30. That way there is that 30 seconds to play with and makes it easier for both staff and passengers.

This would be my preference - the timetabled time is the last time at which you can step through the doors of the train, i.e. the point at which the hustle alarm should start to sound.

I realise that we are not in France but surely we all know that a boarding time can not equal a departing time. If at all possible I depart my trains to be clearing the platform at the advertised time.

Well, it can - as there is a different PTT and WTT time, there is no reason they should need to be the same. Logic is that the PTT is the time at which the last boarding can take place, i.e. the point at which the "close" button is pressed.

But even if you don't, it's ridiculous to have the train well moving at the advertised time - the only other logical thing it should be is the precise second the driver starts to take power and the wheels start to turn. I mustn't be the only one who gets a slight buzz at seeing that kind of pride in a precision operation as you might be more likely to see in Switzerland.

 

[najaB]

This would be my preference - the timetabled time is the last time at which you can step through the doors of the train, i.e. the point at which the hustle alarm should start to sound.

Then we would be having a discussion over why trains are always departing late.

 

[najaB]

Isn't it 2 minutes when the gates are closed at Euston rather than 2 minutes when the train doors close, only really enforced at Euston with pre-boarding checks

I think VTEC also said the same for Kings Cross, did they not? No idea if LNER are continuing it though.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Then we would be having a discussion over why trains are always departing late.

If a discrepancy between the published (public) timetable and the working timetable is built in, then trains wouldn't be late.

It is not unreasonable to expect that, all things running smoothly:

1) The train's wheels start moving on the dot of the minute the train is scheduled to depart.

2) The train doors are released on (or before) the dot of the minute the train is scheduled to arrive.

If the railway wants to do it any other way, they should make passengers aware far more clearly than they do now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then we would be having a discussion over why trains are always departing late.

To which the answer is quite simply that when it departs (provided this occurs after, and not before, any published departure time) is of no concern to the passenger, what matters is that the "door open" button is pressed at the arrival station at precisely the time the clock ticks to the published arrival time (or beforehand).

 

[bb21]

To which the answer is quite simply that when it departs (provided this occurs after, and not before, any published departure time) is of no concern to the passenger,

I don't think that is a satisfactory answer from a customer service perspective.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think that is a satisfactory answer from a customer service perspective.

Why? The only thing that is important to the passenger is that they are able to board at any time up the published time that they can board, and that they arrive at their destination at or before the published time that they will do so. And that there is no unnecessary dawdling, but dispatching the train isn't dawdling - something is clearly occurring throughout the process.

There is no reason to pander to whining to the contrary; such whining is simply unreasonable.

What you are saying is very much the view of an enthusiast who gets a buzz out of seeing the wheels just turning at precisely T+00:00. That is all very nice but it isn't operationally important nor is it of any relevance to a "normal" passenger who only needs to know (a) when the last time they can board is, and B) when they are going to arrive.

 

[bb21]

Why? The only thing that is important to the passenger is that they are able to board at any time up the published time that they can board, and that they arrive at their destination at or before the published time that they will do so. And that there is no unnecessary dawdling, but dispatching the train isn't dawdling - something is clearly occurring throughout the process.

There is no reason to pander to whining to the contrary; such whining is simply unreasonable.

Passenger behaviour simply doesn't work like that.

You need to see the number of complaints about trains departing late to understand that. If you explain back that the train is not booked to leave for another period of time after the doors are closed because it is not actually scheduled to leave until then you start attracting questions why the differential exists and why they cannot board until nearer the time of departure. You can't always time trains at 00 seconds in the public timetable and depart at 30 seconds past in the WTT, and you cannot freely add additional minutes in the GBTT just because you feel like it.

You may think that is whinging, but that is a perfectly legitimate question to many.

The current practice strikes the best balance imo, in that trains depart at the public times booked, but dispatch starts a suitable period of time prior to that to allow it to happen. Most people seem to understand the concept that you cannot board a service last-minute with no difficulty at all. What I can agree with is that more probably could be done to ensure this is more widely understood, eg. advertising this policy more explicitly on booking engines, and a more consistent public message on that policy is desirable, eg. suburban services up to 45 seconds before departure nationally, major London terminals up to 2 minutes before departure. Local instructions can then vary without being advertised, eg. T-30 at certain locations, so customers always see a slightly more favourable outcome should they run a little later than usual. That then allows the service to also depart when ready, reducing PTI risks due to people attempting to board stationary services ready but not yet time to go.

 

[yorkie]

First off, I'd hardly call two minutes before departure of an inter-city journey from the starting station "early"...

I would! They should change the timetable if they want even more padding.

If a discrepancy between the published (public) timetable and the working timetable is built in, then trains wouldn't be late.

Exactly. But some TOCs want to have their cake and eat it.

 

[sheff1]

The current practice strikes the best balance imo, in that trains depart at the public times booked,

Except that they don't, they often leave before the public time ... which is why the thread was started.