Train leaving early?

[najaB]

I would! They should change the timetable if they want even more padding.

It's not for padding, it's because it's a long way from the concourse at Euston to the platforms. They advertise that they close the platform doors at two minutes to make sure everyone can get to the train and it can leave on time.

In practice, I've been let through less than two minutes before departure.

 

[najaB]

Except that they don't, they often leave before the public time ... which is why the thread was started.

Sometimes, not often.

 

[yorkie]

It's not for padding, it's because it's a long way from the concourse at Euston to the platforms. They advertise that they close the platform doors at two minutes to make sure everyone can get to the train and it can leave on time.

In practice, I've been let through less than two minutes before departure.

Presumably you had wanted to be denied entry, and the train left late as a result?

If not, your argument makes no sense.

 

[bb21]

Except that they don't, they often leave before the public time ... which is why the thread was started.

Occasionally trains will depart slightly earlier if the dispatch process was swift and the road ahead is clear, provided that dispatch started at stated times, but in all honesty I have very rarely seen a service depart more than 10-15 seconds ahead of the public timetable, if everything was done correctly. Staff can make mistakes occasionally, and is usually the reason when something departs significantly early in my experience. That element of human error cannot always be avoided.

Because human behaviour is variable, you will always have a small margin built in to ensure a certain level of consistent performance. If you are going to insist that a 15-second margin is not tolerable to cater for variable performance then there isn't much else I can say to be honest.

Sometimes changes to rolling stock or operating procedures can speed things up resulting in trains generally departing earlier than previously. In those situations, should there be a persistent problem, I can only recommend that customers bring it to the attention of the relevant company who can then re-evaluate the effectiveness of their policy and change them if deemed necessary. It is however important to note that changing a long-standing operational policy/arrangement can cause confusion to both customers and staff, so is not a decision that can be taken lightly.

In regards to services not waiting those few seconds until it is precisely on the dot to depart when the dispatch process is complete, I have explained the rationale behind it previously so won't repeat myself here.

 

[sheff1]

Sometimes, not often.

I travelled on 4 trains today. 2 departed before the public departure time*. This is quite normal, in my experience, so I stick by "often".

* at the station at which I boarded.

 

[Westnat]

I travelled on 4 trains today. 2 departed before the public departure time*. This is quite normal, in my experience, so I stick by "often".

* at the station at which I boarded.

Can you give details of which two trains departed early? Are we talking minutes or seconds?

 

[sheff1]

Can you give details of which two trains departed early? Are we talking minutes or seconds?

Seconds - exactly as per the OP in the thread.

1949 Birmingham to Derby
2043 Derby to Sheffield

 

[Belperpete]

It is all very well to advertise on the platform, or even on the station, how early the train doors close, but that is too late for the passenger who has just arrived for their train. The passenger needs to know BEFORE setting out to catch the train. Someone who is used to GWR's 40 second rule, for example, may be totally unaware that a two minute rule applies at Euston.

The Southern used to allow 30 seconds for station stops. Closing the doors 40 seconds before departure would have meant closing them before you had even opened them!

I agree that the OP should have got compensation based on the train being recorded as departing early. Don't forget that will be based on when the signalling system saw the train passing the signal at the end of the platform, not when the train started moving, which will be even earlier.

Having said that, in the more rural parts of the country, it is quite regular that buses run 5 minutes or more earlier than the time shown on the stop, particularly on long journeys. And no chance of claiming compensation if you miss it! You soon learn to be there with plenty of time to spare.

 

[bb21]

I agree that the OP should have got compensation based on the train being recorded as departing early. Don't forget that will be based on when the signalling system saw the train passing the signal at the end of the platform, not when the train started moving, which will be even earlier.

Recorded times are adjusted for the delay between wheels rolling and logging by signalling equipment which, while an approximate using averages, is usually correct and regularly recalibrated.

 

[Aictos]

Is it too much to ask that, if TOCs wish to play the statistics by departing before the "departure time", they advertise the fact that doors close well before the advertised "departure time" before you buy your ticket - e.g. online or at the ticket office/machine?

It really is a rail industry anachronism, this idea that, because the railway has "always" done something a particular way, and because they have put up a sign saying that that is the way they do it (after the critical moment, where you buy your ticket), that makes it OK!

You don't have this problem with airlines, for example - they clearly tell you before you buy your ticket that you must be there early. Fair enough. But if the rail industry wants to play that (dubious) game, they must tell people, and at the appropriate point!

It is well advertised in timetable booklets and at posters on stations indeed there was one station I'm aware of that First Capital Connect operated that had a poster advertising this fact before you even got past the gateline plus also had one on the platforms too.

We've had this argument so many times, it's been done to death - If you're travelling then you make sure you're on the platform with time to spare, you don't and shouldn't just turn up whenever you feel like it because you think the doors close at the advertised departure time

That time is the time that the train departs by and operators are quite in their right to close doors up to 2 minutes early especially for IC services at London terminals to ensure all passengers have boarded.

Non IC services can start the process 20 to 30 seconds prior to departure time so no the OP was in the wrong and they should have know better as should a number of others here by their words...

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It is well advertised in timetable booklets and at posters on stations indeed there was one station I'm aware of that First Capital Connect operated that had a poster advertising this fact before you even got past the gateline plus also had one on the platforms too.

That's all well and good, but it's of no use for someone who isn't familiar with the policies of a particular TOC. As I say, if the rail industry wants this behaviour/policy to not put them in breach of contract when people miss trains they arrive on time for, they need to ensure that the policy is made utmost clear from before you before your ticket, regardless of how you buy it.

We've had this argument so many times, it's been done to death - If you're travelling then you make sure you're on the platform with time to spare, you don't and shouldn't just turn up whenever you feel like it because you think the doors close at the advertised departure time

It's been done to death, and therefore your view is correct? Seems an attitude that would find you right at home in rail industry policy making! It's all well and good saying you should be there on time, but even the best arrangements can come to naught sometimes. If the TOCs are claiming (wrongly) that they have to close doors before the advertised departure time to ensure an on-time departure, it is clearly revealed as nothing better than a half-truth, if not a lie, if they then depart early. I can understand them wanting to close doors early, but they can't and shouldn't go around departing early, as that defies the point of the policy then. Where there is a pattern of early departure, TOCs should adjust their door closing policies and not just take it as a boon to their financials (from reduced PPM failures and franchise timeliness penalties).

That time is the time that the train departs by and operators are quite in their right to close doors up to 2 minutes early especially for IC services at London terminals to ensure all passengers have boarded.

The departure time is, by definition, the time the train departs. If it departs before then, then it is early. Departing early makes a mockery of the idea of a "scheduled departure time", unless you are a kind of service that is reservation compulsory, e.g. Eurostar, Caledonian Sleeper, flights etc., with all passengers boarded.

If the TOCs publish their policies, fair enough. But they do far too poor of a job for their current approach to be even remotely acceptable. Equally, it is not necessary to close doors so early in, for example, the case of London Terminals. It would be perfectly possible to close most of the doors 2 minutes before departure, and to keep the rearmost door (or two) open for "late"comers, closing the barriers the usual 30 or so seconds before departure. But seemingly such an idea is beyond the wit of mankind...

Non IC services can start the process 20 to 30 seconds prior to departure time so no the OP was in the wrong and they should have know better as should a number of others here by their words...

The OP was in the wrong if they knew the policy before buying their ticket, and the doors closed early so that it would depart on time. But no, it did it to enable an early departure, and so it is very much the TOC that is in the wrong. That is not OK no matter how many times you go blaming the beleaguered passenger.

If any TOC does the same to me - closing the doors early, departing early, resulting in me being delayed - but then refusing to pay the appropriate delay compensation, they should be prepared to find a County Court claim form in their letterbox, pretty sharpish. I can't comment for others in this regard, but I won't put up with, frankly, utter tripe and bulls**t. Luckily it's not happened to me before, as I always make suitable arrangements to be on time, but there is always the possibility it may happen, and especially so where a previous train has been delayed.

 

[najaB]

Presumably you had wanted to be denied entry, and the train left late as a result?

If not, your argument makes no sense.

No, I wanted to get the train and they let me though despite it being less that two minutes before the train departed with a "You'll need to hurry!"

The point being that, in most cases, this mountain isn't even a molehill.

 

[Llanigraham]

That's all well and good, but it's of no use for someone who isn't familiar with the policies of a particular TOC. As I say, if the rail industry wants this behaviour/policy to not put them in breach of contract when people miss trains they arrive on time for, they need to ensure that the policy is made utmost clear from before you before your ticket, regardless of how you buy it.

When did you last buy an air ticket?
That is one instance where Joe Public knows he has to be at the airport well before the flight time, but guess what? You don't get told how soon before UNTIL you've bought your ticket. And that time can and does vary.
Therefore your point is invalid.

If any TOC does the same to me - closing the doors early, departing early, resulting in me being delayed - but then refusing to pay the appropriate delay compensation, they should be prepared to find a County Court claim form in their letterbox, pretty sharpish. I can't comment for others in this regard, but I won't put up with, frankly, utter tripe and bulls**t. Luckily it's not happened to me before, as I always make suitable arrangements to be on time, but there is always the possibility it may happen, and especially so where a previous train has been delayed.

And I will ask the question of you and every else who complains about this; How do you know they left early? How accurate is your watch/time piece? Because unless you can confirm that it is totally accurate AND it agrees with the time piece of the driver of that train you don't have a case.

 

[221129]

But did it actually leave early though? I know we have some platforms that you can leave bang on time and it'll still record as early on TRUST etc.

 

[Belperpete]

Recorded times are adjusted for the delay between wheels rolling and logging by signalling equipment which, while an approximate using averages, is usually correct and regularly recalibrated.

In the same kind of way as an adjustment is made to the arrival time, used as the basis for delayed arrival compensation. Some you win and some you lose. Likewise, the departure time, after adjustment, some you win and some you lose. If a train is recorded as departing early, then the customer should be entitled to compensation based on the delay caused by having to catch the following train.

 

[bb21]

In the same kind of way as an adjustment is made to the arrival time, used as the basis for delayed arrival compensation. Some you win and some you lose. Likewise, the departure time, after adjustment, some you win and some you lose. If a train is recorded as departing early, then the customer should be entitled to compensation based on the delay caused by having to catch the following train.

There are other ways it can be verified on a train-by-train basis should there be a dispute, to arrival times and departure times, including where there is a significant delay between door close and wheel rolling preventing last-minute customers from boarding, which are accurate to the second, depending on the fleet, so it is not always a case of what you described.

That only applies where there is no other possible way of establishing the accuracy to the second.

There is a well-publicised dispatch timescale at most TOCs, so that is what will be used. As I pointed out earlier, whether more could be done to ensure it is more widely understood can be up for discussion, but no, a train recorded as departing one minute early on systems that round figures down to the nearest minute does not entitle the customer to any automatic Delay Repay compensation, but if the correct procedure were not followed, then they would be.

I can only suggest that if anyone has an issue with this policy of wheels rolling at zero seconds (+/- a small margin), you need to lobby the government and the ORR to force changes on them. They have worked well and the overwhelming majority of customers understand them well.

 

[Aictos]

The departure time is the time the wheels on the service ought to be moving not the time that the train doors close or start the dispatch process, I just can't understand why it's so difficult to understand that doors can close up to 2 minutes prior to departure to allow a right time departure.

If the 13:54 Virgin Trains service from London Euston to Stirling started the dispatch process at 13:54 it simply would mean a late start and the majority of passengers upset about the late start compared to the minority who would be happy about it, this is why doors on services especially IC services can close up to 2 minutes to departure to allow for a on time departure.

As to TOCs not publishing this, I know full well that some TOCs publish posters stating this indeed First Capital Connect and GTR have posters on their stations stating train doors close so many seconds to departure and as to any passengers being delayed on a connecting service you do realise that they can and should be accepted on the next available service.

 

[bb21]

The departure time is the time the wheels on the service ought to be moving not the time that the train doors close or start the dispatch process, I just can't understand why it's so difficult to understand that doors can close up to 2 minutes prior to departure to allow a right time departure.

It isn't. The overwhelming majority of customers have no problem understanding that concept (and the need for it) at all.

 

[Aictos]

It isn't. The overwhelming majority of customers have no problem understanding that concept (and the need for it) at all.

However you fail to notice it's certainly a issue on RUK

 

[yorkie]

I don't think many passengers want to see trains depart early, nor do many (if any) complain if the train departs a few seconds later than advertised.

We have public & working timetables, so the train companies have no viable excuse.

 

[yorkie]

No, I wanted to get the train

Are you now admitting people want to catch trains in such circumstances?

and they let me though despite it being less that two minutes before the train departed with a "You'll need to hurry!"

The point being that, in most cases, this mountain isn't even a molehill.

So you agree the 2 minute policy is not necessary then?

 

[najaB]

However you fail to notice it's certainly a issue on RUK

Especially with the "TOCs can do nothing right crowd."

 

[Aictos]

Especially with the "TOCs can do nothing right crowd."

Yup pretty much, *thumbs up*

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Yup pretty much, *thumbs up*

Which could also be known as the "the TOCs can do nothing wrong" crowd?

I'm not saying that you can't have a policy like what the TOCs have now. But if they want to do it that way, advertising it far more clearly and widely, and most crucially of all, on all methods of retailing, is an absolute imperative.

 

[yorkie]

It sounds like the "TOCs can do nothing wrong" crowd are bitter because the passenger won in this case.

I'm not saying that you can't have a policy like what the TOCs have now. But if they want to do it that way, advertising it far more clearly and widely, and most crucially of all, on all methods of retailing, is an absolute imperative.

They are not going to admit that TOCs are doing anything wrong.

While there are various things they could do to act more reasonably than they are at present, they don't need to do anything other than change the public times to be 1 or 2 minutes earlier than the working timetable where it is felt necessary, and the problem goes away instantly.

 

[Aictos]

Not bitter at all, just the fact that the current system works and that there are those on here who can't or don't want to admit it actually works because it doesn't suit them.

TOCs do advertise their train doors close policy and it can't be beyond the wit of man to actually arrive for a service with time to spare ie you don't just turn up with mins or in most cases secs to go.

That is not to say that mistakes don't happen because they do but to change the entire system because a minority try to find fault with it? Umm no thanks!

 

[yorkie]

Not bitter at all...

I'm far from convinced, but you're wrong anyway and certainly not being impartial.

just the fact that the current system works and that there are those on here who can't or don't want to admit it actually works because it doesn't suit them.

I do not think that any system of locking doors 2 minutes prior to the advertised departure time suits anyone, but if it suits you, I'd be curious to understand why, and what your interests are.

TOCs do advertise their train doors close policy and it can't be beyond the wit of man to actually arrive for a service with time to spare ie you don't just turn up with mins or in most cases secs to go.

That is not to say that mistakes don't happen because they do but to change the entire system because a minority try to find fault with it? Umm no thanks!

The default minimum interchange time at most stations is 5 minutes; obviously it can be higher than that, but if you are saying the doors should be locked 2 minutes prior to departure then at many stations it makes connections impossible for some people even if the incoming train is on time.

 

[philthetube]

I do think that 2 minutes before departure at Euston (and maybe others) is too far in advance. Moreover given LNW only start 30 seconds before (even on their 8 or 12 coach peak time services) so maybe for Virgin, one minute would be more reasonable. I also think that such information should be made clear when buying tickets. Otherwise it cannot be said to be a condition of contract.

They probably need the two mins to depart a HST on time, and it would be impossible to differentiate between stocks and expect passengers to understand this.

 

[bb21]

Let's not be bogged down by bickering please people.

Which could also be known as the "the TOCs can do nothing wrong" crowd?

I'm not saying that you can't have a policy like what the TOCs have now. But if they want to do it that way, advertising it far more clearly and widely, and most crucially of all, on all methods of retailing, is an absolute imperative.

Agreed. I think we can all agree on the fact that perhaps the policy can be better advertised to people who may not catch trains very often at, say, ticket buying stage. They are well advertised currently to more frequent travellers.

I also agree that it is perfectly possible on this occasion the correct dispatch timescale was not adhered to, which is the most likely reason why appropriate compensation has been paid out.

I think I have also explained previously that it is not always possible to add more minutes to the public timetable/toggle minutes at intermediate stations just because the TOCs feel like it. There are various constraints on what can be done to the timetable such as maximum journey times as stipulated by franchise agreements, and duration of station call at intermediate stations, so that isn't really a viable solution in many cases, although it possibly can be at some.

 

[Flying Snail]

I'm far from convinced, but you're wrong anyway and certainly not being impartial.

I do not think that any system of locking doors 2 minutes prior to the advertised departure time suits anyone, but if it suits you, I'd be curious to understand why, and what your interests are.

The ONLY "2 minutes" I am aware of is the platform gates at Euston. Constantly using it in general conversation is disingenuous and grossly exaggerating the reality to make your point sound more reasonable.

On the topic of Euston, 2 mns from platform gate at a quick walk would make the first passenger door in just enough time for a right time dispatch on most platforms, on the likes of P1 you would have to run for that to be the case.

Maybe it is reasonable that the staff let through someone who is making an effort to catch a train at less than 2 minutes who won't be likely to hold up the service and to not allow someone making no effort and trailing a large bag who is more often than not going to saunter down to the train, look for their allocated coach and slowly board while 500 other passengers are waiting for a now delayed departure.

The default minimum interchange time at most stations is 5 minutes; obviously it can be higher than that, but if you are saying the doors should be locked 2 minutes prior to departure then at many stations it makes connections impossible for some people even if the incoming train is on time.

Again with the 2 minutes, how many 5 minute connections are tabled for Euston?

As a previous poster has said, this topic has appeared many times and the majority opinion seems to be that a small margin (and let's face it 20-40 seconds is very small in comparison with the likes of air travel) for door closing and dispatch procedure is perfectly acceptable and for the vast majority of passengers in the vast majority of cases a benefit as it aids overall timekeeping.

Let's be honest here, I have on many occasions seen staff hold the closing for passengers approaching a train and those boarding, the reality is that the (30-40s) limit is strictly applied only when there is nobody within sight of the guard/dispatcher making an attempt to catch the train.

It seems to me that the main objections to this are people unwilling to accept that the railway is not just public transport but mass transport and their individual circumstances may on occasion not be given priority over the greater good.

If the margin by which you regularly miss a service is a fraction of a minute then may I suggest the problem is you not the railway.

Connections are always an issue but the fact is it doesn't matter how the times are measured there will always be just caught/just missed connections. Yes 5 minutes at some locations can be tight, the only "solution" to that is to increase the min connection at those locations and the consequence may be more marginal connections being disallowed for official ticketing purposes.