Train leaving early?

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by cakehoover, 6 Feb 2019.

  1. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    The OP's issue was at Stroud, it wasn't me who brought up two minutes.

    Pro TOC people seem unhappy the OP was compensated but that says a lot about them and sounds like bitterness.

    If Euston is the only place that has an excessive two minute rule then that's still one place too many, as there is no excuse for it. They could change the public timetable accordingly (and if the DfT won't let them, they shouldn't be circumventing that)

    It sounds like some TOCs are massaging figures and trying to get trains away early in order to improve their statistics.

    I was affected by a train leaving early; it was out of sight two minutes before departure so must have left 3-4 early but the (incompetent and very anti customer) TOC concerned ignored my complaint and never got back to me. So I am pleased to see GWR give a decent response in this case.
     
  2. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Euston has greater than 5 minimum, doesn't it? But because of the nature of a terminus of that kind, I expect almost nobody is changing trains at Euston anyway, they are either heading across London to/from another station or just going to London. The only case for connecting at Euston is to/from LO, which is incredibly niche.

    TBH, though, I think 5 minutes is inadequate at even the smallest stations, unless the connection can be pretty much guaranteed to be same platform or same island (such as one at Manc Picc P13/14, or between semifast and slow at Leighton Buzzard), that the national minimum should be switched to 10. Even if you consider a relatively simple smallish station, if you have to walk from the back of a 12-car set to the bridge, find where to go, cross the bridge and find a position on the platform, even without any delays that is impossibly tight for most occasional users. Regular users of course know they can make a 2 minute connection at some stations. Even as an expert user, I do not "do" 5 minute connections except for ones where the consequence of a miss is low (i.e. it's say 5 minutes then 15) - certainly not into a less frequent service.
     
  3. anme

    anme Established Member

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    I once got £5 in rail vouchers after I complained about a train leaving 1 minute 30 seconds early. The accompanying letter included a lecture on how doors may close 30 seconds before departure and that it's the passenger's responsibility to be on time.

    The next train was one hour later so it was pretty annoying at the time.
     
  4. matt_world2004

    matt_world2004 Established Member

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    I was boarding the 05:30 Heathrow connect from Hayes once. There were still people queuing to board when the driver shut the door and that left early.
     
  5. swills

    swills Established Member

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    Many people cannot accept responsibility for their own actions, If a train leaves at xx01, why on earth someone arriving at 00.00 would think they are in time to catch it leaves me a bit stumped ! surely fi the departure time is x01, then that is time it is supposed to be start off trundling down the platform ? Thus doors closed about half a minute maybe a bit more before that ?
    If you catch a bus you don't arrive at the bus stop seconds before the bus is due, if so, more than likely missed it ! Catch a plane? arrive 2 hours before for many ! Call a taxi, you don't get ready for it just as it arrives, you are there waiting with coat on, ready to jump in, someone complained a train left 15 seconds early, well that to me, is leaving it too late !
     
  6. anme

    anme Established Member

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    How early do you think passengers should arrive on the platform? Referring to my post 92, was it my fault that I missed that train?
     
  7. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

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    If I was intending to travel on a specific train, I would attempt to be on the platform ready to board about five minutes before it's advertised departure. The only exceptions would be if it was a 'frequent' service (as is Thameslink at St Albans) or if my actual arrival time on the platform was dependant on the arrival of another train from which I had alighted.
    For those who think that their time is so precious that they can't spare the time to get there with some safety margin, then they obviously regard catching that specific train as less important. It's their choice.
     
  8. Clip

    Clip On Moderation

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    Depends where I am going and how long the one after will be which normally determines how early I get to a station and for longer journies my ticket will normally determine that too so that I dont miss my booked service
     
  9. swills

    swills Established Member

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    If I wanted to catch for example a 1045 departure, and it was a 30min or hourly service, I would expect to be on the platform at 1040, in fact after allowing for delays in traffic, maybe end up a bit earlier ! If I were 'running late' and get towards the platform at 1044 I would be a little concerned I might miss it ! to me it just seems common sense :)

    Wonder if those that arrive at the station with 60 seconds to spare, get to work with 60 seconds or less to spare before clocking in or relieving someone else ?
     
  10. bahnause

    bahnause Member

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    Common sense would be to tell the customer the last point in time to board the train. Giving him a timetable where depending on the station he has to add something between 30 seconds and two minutes without telling him is not usefull information.
     
  11. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    The problem with 'common sense' is that it's frequently not common. I would expect a train timetabled to leave at 10:30 to leave at 10:30 - not some period of time after that.
     
  12. swills

    swills Established Member

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    so in essence we are saying the train will depart in the timetable at 1028, but in reality it will really leave at 1030, then of course the 'my train was 1 min late' brigade will chime in :) lol

    and in the case of timetabled to leave at 1030 as najaB said, you need to be on board by 1029 at the latest, not arriving on the station at 10.29.45
     
  13. Llanigraham

    Llanigraham On Moderation

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    An example of where that wouldn't work:
    Caersws.
    If you arrive at the station in one direction 5 minutes before the train is due to leave you will get on the train.
    If you arrive from the OTHER direction you won't even be able to get onto the platform.

    So what do you tell the passenger in that situation?
     
  14. sarahj

    sarahj Established Member

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    Not 100% of course, but you do notice a lot of folks who just miss the train, often have a coffee in their hands. :rolleyes:
     
  15. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    This would render many official connections impossible, so obviously I don't agree with you.
     
  16. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    And often also headphones to prevent hearing the whistle and the regularly repeated message ''May I have your attention please. To ensure a timely departure, train doors may be locked shut up to 30 seconds before departure. Thank you.' that plays at the same frequency as the see it, say it ones.
     
  17. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    How many interchange stations have a connection time under 5 minutes?
     
  18. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    How about High Wycombe. Important interchange station for journeys between the lesser stations on the Chiltern network; minimum interchange time is 1 minute (no, not kidding), and yet if you're unlucky enough to be at the northern end of a northbound through train (or, any of it really!), heading for a southbound through service, on a 1 minute connection, you're virtually guaranteed to miss it.
     
  19. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Well that's just plain silly. Especially as it's classed as a medium interchange station.
     
  20. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    No problem with 12 car trains in these parts !

    Nor some period of time before that.
     
  21. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Agreed.
     
  22. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    Plain silly or not, there are numerous others like it. Thus, either this must be changed, or the railway must change its policies with respect to the time it advertises as the "departure" time.
     
  23. Kite159

    Kite159 Veteran Member

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    Or connecting between a fast service heading southbound to one of the High Wycombe starters which requires a long walk.
     
  24. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    You can look up the interchange stations of any stations at a website such as brtimes.com or in the National Rail Timetable. Quite a few are under 5 minutes, but I was replying to someone who seemed to suggest that a passenger should be on the correct platform 5 minutes prior to departure. Except for same or cross platform interchanges, that would require teleportation even if trains are on time in some cases.

    Can you not just admit trains should not be departing early?
     
  25. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    There's nothing to "admit" - I have no idea where you got the idea that I think otherwise. I have said several times that a train should depart at the time shown in the timetable.
     
  26. Belperpete

    Belperpete Member

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    While I would agree that the passenger should be on the platform in plenty of time, that can only apply where the passenger has some control over it. When changing trains, you generally have little say. Likewise, if you are coming by bus, it would not be reasonable to expect someone to have to catch an earlier bus (which might be an hour or more earlier in rural areas) just in case the train leaves early.

    Out of interest, if you missed a connection because the first train arrived say 2 minutes late, and the second train left 2 minutes early, which TOC would you submit the claim to?
     
  27. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    The first TOC that caused your journey to become delayed. In other words, the first point in the 'chain of events' where things started going wrong in a way that caused things to go out of kilter.

    Had the first train not been late, presumably you would have made the connection, thus it would be them you would claim from.

    If that TOC rejected the claim, and forwarded it onto the other TOC, who also rejected it, and you wanted to take the matter further, you could simply make a County Court claim with both TOCs named as defendants. The Court/Judge would then determine who was liable, although I would be surprised if there was any kind of joint liability.
     
  28. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    I think that would depend on if the first train arriving late put you below the minimum connection time or not for the station in question. If the MCT was 10 minutes and the first train was timetabled to arrive 13 minutes before the second, then I think the claim would be against the second TOC (since the MCT wasn't breached by the late arrival). If the second train was timetabled to leave 11 minutes after the first then the claim would be against the first (because the MCT was breached).
     
  29. PeterC

    PeterC Established Member

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    Maybe there should just be a blanked notice in all timetables and at the point of sale that you should be at the platform 2 minutes before the advertised departure time. Part of the problem is that you have bought your ticket, looked in the timetable, turn up on time and then find a notice about the doors closing "early".
     
  30. FelixtheCat

    FelixtheCat Established Member

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    New Cross is 4 minutes.

    EDIT: As is Lewisham and a few other SE stations.
     
    Last edited: 16 Feb 2019 at 18:24

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