Train Sim World - Is this signalling behaviour correct?

[AlexNL]

Hi all,

I'm someone who likes to play Train Sim World. My current favourite is Great Western Express, the 2016-ish representation of the London Paddington to Reading line. As I was driving one of the trains on that line today, I noticed something which caught my eye.

I was driving the 07:42 from London Paddington to West Ealing (& Greenford, not simulated). My train, formed of a single Class 166, was to depart from Platform 11 in Paddington.

Signal SN21 was showing a proceed aspect:


However, SN25 at the end of the platform, was showing a red:


Of course, I went way too fast and thus SPADded this signal.

Track diagram as represented in game:


What I'm wondering: is this behaviour prototypically correct? Should drivers expect green->red when they are facing a signalling and track layout as the one in game?

 

[Peter C]

Hi all,

I'm someone who likes to play Train Sim World. My current favourite is Great Western Express, the 2016-ish representation of the London Paddington to Reading line. As I was driving one of the trains on that line today, I noticed something which caught my eye.

I was driving the 07:42 from London Paddington to West Ealing (& Greenford, not simulated). My train, formed of a single Class 166, was to depart from Platform 11 in Paddington.

Signal SN21 was showing a proceed aspect:
View attachment 66237

However, SN25 at the end of the platform, was showing a red:
View attachment 66238

Of course, I went way too fast and thus SPADded this signal.

Track diagram as represented in game:
View attachment 66239

What I'm wondering: is this behaviour prototypically correct? Should drivers expect green->red when they are facing a signalling and track layout as the one in game?

I don't know the signalling at Paddington very well, but maybe this happens because of the relatively low speed a train will be doing when it gets to the end of the platform. Even the fastest of 166s would be able to stop in time I'd think.
I would have thought, however, that SN21 would show at least a red until SN25 is OFF. It seems a bit odd.

-Peter

 

[hexagon789]

Hi all,

I'm someone who likes to play Train Sim World. My current favourite is Great Western Express, the 2016-ish representation of the London Paddington to Reading line. As I was driving one of the trains on that line today, I noticed something which caught my eye.

I was driving the 07:42 from London Paddington to West Ealing (& Greenford, not simulated). My train, formed of a single Class 166, was to depart from Platform 11 in Paddington.

Signal SN21 was showing a proceed aspect:
View attachment 66237

However, SN25 at the end of the platform, was showing a red:
View attachment 66238

Of course, I went way too fast and thus SPADded this signal.

Track diagram as represented in game:
View attachment 66239

What I'm wondering: is this behaviour prototypically correct? Should drivers expect green->red when they are facing a signalling and track layout as the one in game?

Don't think so, surely SN21 should display a single yellow.

 

[EM2]

If SN21 is approach-controlled, then it's certainly possible that it would be ON until you're almost on it.

 

[hexagon789]

If SN21 is approach-controlled, then it's certainly possible that it would be ON until you're almost on it.

Even with the previous signal showing Green though?

 

[GB]

*You will never get a green mainline aspect onto a red, its just not done. The signalling in TSW has been poor ever since the game came out, one of the reason I dumped it. Shame to see its still not sorted.

*of course someone is about to prove me wrong!

 

[edwin_m]

*You will never get a green mainline aspect onto a red, its just not done. The signalling in TSW has been poor ever since the game came out, one of the reason I dumped it. Shame to see its still not sorted.

*of course someone is about to prove me wrong!

It can happen with semaphores (but only when the first one has been held at danger until the train is close to it).

 

[hexagon789]

It can happen with semaphores (but only when the first one has been held at danger until the train is close to it).

Indeed, it's pretty common with semaphores checking a trains approach to a station or passage through a station or junction, but I don't believe it can happen with colour lights.

 

[AlexNL]

The signal at the end of the platform, SN25, was on because another train was routed in front of mine (the Turbo which can be seen in the distance). As far as I know, SN25 doesn't do approach control. For that matter, I can't recall any signals in GWE being approach-controlled... but this is because the signalling is wonky as @GB rightly indicates.

It looks like SN21, halfway down platform 11, is a two-aspect filament bulb signal and not one of the modern multi-aspect LED signals. It can only show red or green. After some Googling I found some footage of SN21. It looks like the signal itself is represented (almost*) correctly in TSW:


Photo by Sunil060902 on Wikipedia [license: CC BY-SA 3.0], showing SN21 at red.

SN21 can also show green:

Photo is a snapshot from AB Trains' YouTube video, showing SN21 at green as a 165 departs.

I'm wondering how this works (worked?) in real life. If the starter signal at the end of platform 11 (SN25) is at red, what does SN21 show? Does it clear to green (and should the driver know SN25 can still be red), or is it held at red? How would a move from one side of the signal to the other be signalled, would that be using the call-on aspect?

* Almost correctly: the banner repeater is not there in TSW, and while the "RA" indicator is physically there it is not in use in the game.

 

[John Webb]

More important, in some respects, is the "Off" indicator to show platform staff that the departure signal (at the end of the platform) is at clear and therefore the train can be given "Right away". There seems to be a crossover which SN21 is protecting. I wonder if otherwise SN21 can only show green when SN25 is cleared, and the inaccuracies in the programme are at fault here?

 

[hexagon789]

More important, in some respects, is the "Off" indicator to show platform staff that the departure signal (at the end of the platform) is at clear and therefore the train can be given "Right away". There seems to be a crossover which SN21 is protecting. I wonder if otherwise SN21 can only show green when SN25 is cleared, and the inaccuracies in the programme are at fault here?

I think so, to me it feels as though SN21 should remain at danger until SN25 clears.

 

[edwin_m]

I don't know about Paddington but Liverpool Street has (or had in 1987 when I was involved in developing the IECC training simulator) a similar arrangement of two signals at the end of a platform whereby a shorter train could use the platform without affecting some points that were fouled by longer trains. The signal closer to the buffer stops wouldn't clear unless the other signal also cleared, and would show the same aspect. This simulator ran on the actual SSI data so it was a lot more likely to be correct than a third party product!

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Also similar to a couple of platforms at Euston (p17/p18) where the first signal at the end of platform can only shown green or red. If it’s a green, then the next signal just after the 2 lines join must be showing either a yellow or green (with route indicator); In other words, both signals have to be cleared together.

 

[ComUtoR]

Of course, I went way too fast and thus SPADded this signal.

How fast was you going. You should have been more than able to stop.

It looks like the same setup at Victoria Platform 2. Looking out your first window you can see a set of points coming from another platform. That will allow a unit to be held in the platform behind the signal (your green) and another routed in front of it. At Vic that signal is held at Red and approach controlled. This is because a unit being held may 'read through' to the end of platform signal and SPAD into the passing train.

 

[hexagon789]

How fast was you going. You should have been more than able to stop.

It looks like the same setup at Victoria Platform 2. Looking out your first window you can see a set of points coming from another platform. That will allow a unit to be held in the platform behind the signal (your green) and another routed in front of it. At Vic that signal is held at Red and approach controlled. This is because a unit being held may 'read through' to the end of platform signal and SPAD into the passing train.

Looks like he was doing 21 before even passing the first signal, irl the limit is 40 out of Paddington I believe, so I think TSW's implementation of the signalling is at fault for the SPAD rather than driving technique.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Looks like he was doing 21 before even passing the first signal, irl the limit is 40 out of Paddington I believe, so I think TSW's implementation of the signalling is at fault for the SPAD rather than driving technique.

25mph leaving Paddington then 40mph. He was doing 31mph about 50 yards from the red and still in full power. So he obviously didn’t try stopping as you could probably fairly easily have stopped had emergency brake or full service brake application had been made once the red signal was sighted.

 

[hexagon789]

25mph leaving Paddington then 40mph. He was doing 31mph about 50 yards from the red and still in full power. So he obviously didn’t try stopping as you could probably fairly easily have stopped had emergency brake or full service brake application had been made once the red signal was sighted.

I'm sure it used to be 40 straight out, but anyway, you shouldn't have to drive on sight like that, there should be warning of the approaching red from the previous signal or if there isn't the previous signal shouldn't clear until the next one has.

 

[ComUtoR]

If you look at the first picture. You can see that SN25 is still held at Red.

25mph leaving Paddington then 40mph.

In the RealLife™ picture you can see a 25mph PSR board.

He was doing 31mph about 50 yards from the red and still in full power.

Well spotted. I don't play any Sim games; especially not train ones. I assume that the red line on the HUD is the current PSR ? That would account for '31' being in red.

So he obviously didn’t try stopping as you could probably fairly easily have stopped had emergency brake or full service brake application had been made once the red signal was sighted.

Would there have been an AWS for SN25 ? Is there one in RealLife™ ? You can see the signal on the curve so you would have enough sighting to at least react and stick the brake in.

you shouldn't have to drive on sight like that,

You should be checking each signal as you approach it. Signals can revert to danger at any time and you should be prepared to react to whatever the next signal is showing.

there should be warning of the approaching red from the previous signal or if there isn't the previous signal shouldn't clear until the next one has.

Oh for sure it looks totally broken.

so I think TSW's implementation of the signalling is at fault for the SPAD rather than driving technique.

It would go down as an 'operational incident' / 'SPAR' because of the incorrect indication towards the Red but I'm gonna call Driver error for going past it.

 

[hexagon789]

You should be checking each signal as you approach it. Signals can revert to danger at any time and you should be prepared to react to whatever the next signal is showing.

I appreciate that, but ordinarily you should drive on sight like that, normally you should have fair warning of the red and in this case I wouldn't consider it the drivers fault for SPADing it.

It would go down as an 'operational incident' / 'SPAR' because of the incorrect indication towards the Red but I'm gonna call Driver error for going past it.

That's exactly how I saw it.

 

[AlexNL]

I wasn't even trying to stop, that's true. Upon departure I immediately slammed it into notch 7 and just kept going as I wanted to see how SN21 and SN25 behave.

If you drive professionally you'll see SN25 step up from yellow to green by the time you get to it, as the other train (which is given priority) has advanced far enough for you to get the road out of the station.

Thank you for all your responses, looks like the game has dropped the ball here as SN21 is not interlinked with SN25. I was half expecting that, but I'm happy that all of you confirm it

 

[PudseyBearHST]

I don’t think there is any associated AWS for that signal.

Yes, I don’t think anyone is denying that this a technical SPAD but the driving technique wasn’t particularly great either (not that I’m blaming AlexNL as this is just a bit of fun).

To get to 21mph at the point the train did, he would have had to whack it into full power. This is not particularly a good idea for obvious reasons such as for passenger comfort and technically for the train as you should really build up the power. A driver manager wouldn’t be particularly impressed if you did that in an assessment.
Also, it is a good idea when leaving a terminus station if you can only see an ‘Off’ indicator or banner repeater (and not the main aspect itself) to only take half power or approach the signal slowly until you can clearly see what aspect it is showing (in this case SN25). Not that you would be expecting a red, but if it is a single yellow, then you do not want to be rushing about in these complex areas where there are quite a few multi-SPAD signals.
One of the questions you’ll be asked if you SPAD at a location like is, “did you see or what route indication did you receive”

 

[AlexNL]

I don’t think there is any associated AWS for that signal.

It looks like there are TPWS train stops though.

Not that they work in Train Sim World... the trains have it, the route has it, but it's bugged. In places where there are working TPWS trainstops provided, they're wrong... they trip you if you go below the target speed.

the driving technique wasn’t particularly great either (not that I’m blaming AlexNL as this is just a bit of fun).

To get to 21mph at the point the train did, he would have had to whack it into full power. This is not particularly a good idea for obvious reasons such as for passenger comfort and technically for the train as you should really build up the power. A driver manager wouldn’t be particularly impressed if you did that in an assessment.

It was indeed for fun, as I wanted to get to SN25 before it clears.

When you start GWE for the first time, you get a little tutorial walking you through the steps needed to get the train moving. Some attention is paid to professional driving: they tell you to leave the station in notch 3 ("for passenger comfort") and they also tell you how to brake smoothly and comfortably.

The instructions are in a simplified way of course, I doubt you could cold start and take a whirl on a real life 166 based on the TSW instructions alone.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

It looks like there are TPWS train stops though.

I definitely hope so in a high risk area such as that- yes, there are TSS at both signals.

Not that they work in Train Sim World... the trains have it, the route has it, but it's bugged. In places where there are working TPWS trainstops provided, they're wrong... they trip you if you go below the target speed.

Ok, I see for the over speed sensors (OSS) on approach.

It was indeed for fun, as I wanted to get to SN25 before it clears.

Haha, you weren’t expecting tea and biscuits with Pudsey bear when you uploaded those screenshots

When you start GWE for the first time, you get a little tutorial walking you through the steps needed to get the train moving. Some attention is paid to professional driving: they tell you to leave the station in notch 3 ("for passenger comfort") and they also tell you how to brake smoothly and comfortably.

The instructions are in a simplified way of course, I doubt you could cold start and take a whirl on a real life 166 based on the TSW instructions alone.

Aah yes, the 5 minute traction course before you’re all ready to drive out on your own
There are drivers that will just take full power straight away and there are others who will build the power gradually. E.g. notch 3 on starting, then notch 4 when train starts moving, notch 5 when 5mph is reached, etc...
Each driver drives different as is being discussed in one of the threads in traction and rolling stock. Yes, TSW doesn’t teach you all the fun parts about faults and failures and everything else drivers/guards need to know.