Train sitting in the station with doors locked, passengers waiting outside

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yorksrob

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I'm sure I've seen some platforms with a big movable sign saying "Front train beyond this point"
 
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Dr Hoo

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I'm sure I've seen some platforms with a big movable sign saying "Front train beyond this point"
Not seen them at Manchester Piccadilly though.

The 'Glossop' anecdote (or a variation on it) is a very real demonstration of the 'multiple train' problem. Hope Valley locals often had a TPE Hull train 'pop in and out, on top' after a significant number of Hull passengers had already joined the local, who then ended up missing it.
 

davews

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Many years ago, can't remember whether it was Frankfurt, Munich or elsewhere on the continent, I arrived quite early for my train to the airport. It was sitting on its advertised platform so got in, nobody said anything to me. Some minutes later it moved out of the station, panic set in, then it reversed back, obviously some sort of train movement. In this case it happened to be the right train, but stuck in a train in a siding in a foreign country may have given me some hassle!
 

infobleep

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I leave them open unless it’s going to cause a problem. If they need to be closed then so be it.
Sounds sensible to me. Perhaps other locations could learn, if it isn't going to cause problems.

Now why am I not surprised you answered with more excuses. The cynic in me just thinks your having an argument just for the sake of it. If people don't take notice of departure times or where their train leaves from and they get on the wrong train then it's down to them, no one else, it is called personal responsibility!
Something I admit is lacking in the modern world becsuse even politicians blame everyone else, even though it was their decision which made the sh!t hit the fan. Give it a few more years and people will be employing someone else to wipe their bottom, becuse they'll have no personal responsibility to do it themselves !!


Indeed.

You only have to look at the 'What is a train' thread. Some of the posters on here really should be on 'Question Time' !!
Whilst I don't disagree with you, try telling a guard that after loopthey get in trouble because someone accidentally got on the wrong train and ended up in the siding.

That almost happened to me. Thankfully someone let me off just in time. Someone who did go through checking but I needed the lol and popped in the toilet and some how got missed.

My fault entirely but had I ended up in the sidings I doubt I'd be the one in trouble.
 
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bramling

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Sounds sensible to me. Perhaps other locations could learn, if it isn't going to cause problems.


Whilst I don't disagree with you, try telling a guard that after loopthey get in trouble because someone accidentally got on the wrong train and ended up in the siding.

That almost happened to me. Thankfully someone let me off just in time. Someone who did go through checking but I needed the lol and popped in the toilet and some how got missed.

My fault entirely but had I ended up in the sidings I doubt I'd be the one in trouble.

I don’t see any connection between closing trains up at termini and the risk of passengers ending up in a siding. Any train going to a depot or siding should be being properly tipped out, which will identify anyone still on board. It’s a completely different scenario.
 

yorksrob

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They used to be commonplace across the network.

Not seen them at Manchester Piccadilly though.

The 'Glossop' anecdote (or a variation on it) is a very real demonstration of the 'multiple train' problem. Hope Valley locals often had a TPE Hull train 'pop in and out, on top' after a significant number of Hull passengers had already joined the local, who then ended up missing it.

Brighton still has them kicking around, although I've seen them used less since Thameslink transitioned to 700s.

I can't remember the last place I saw one, although I admit, platform 1 at Manchester Pic is a bit more complicated owing to the variety of trains and train lengths that can get stacked in it. That one does seem to have some benches along the platform for people (although a few more up the footbridge end would be welcome).
 

Pakenhamtrain

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I'm sure I've seen some platforms with a big movable sign saying "Front train beyond this point"
At Southern Cross down here on Platforms 15/16 they have signs telling pax which train is going where.

As an irregular 'punter' I find 'front train' confusing. It may be thought clear when one approaches via and end-of platform barrier at a terminal station; not so, for reason stated above. Front is the first you come to. I seem to recall a visit to Glasgow Central with three trains in the same platform, and no 1a, Ib etc.
We put the unit number on our PIDs at Southern Cross:
In the case of a Sprinter it will show up as "SPRINTERS 7xxx-7xxx"
In this case refering to a VLocity.
And only put front or rear x cars if the train is being split:
 

Mat17

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I'm sure I've seen some platforms with a big movable sign saying "Front train beyond this point"

I have never seen on of those!

The problem with Man Picc is that it doesn't (or didn't) split it's platforms up into 1a, 1b, 1c etc. It was all just platform 1. Leading to the whole, train at the front, middle and back issue.

At least at Leeds there is a 1a/b/c and then as long as the trains stopped in the correct place it's really then up to the passenger to look at whether it's a/b or c.

As someone alluded to earlier, if the Nottingham is going from 17b and the Knottingley is going from 17a, it's clear to those that look at the platform signage which part of the platform is which.

Obviously, there's an issue if the platforms don't have correct or prominent signage. After all how many people spend ages trying to find platform 2c at Sheffield?
 

yorksrob

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At Southern Cross down here on Platforms 15/16 they have signs telling pax which train is going where.


We put the unit number on our PIDs at Southern Cross:
In the case of a Sprinter it will show up as "SPRINTERS 7xxx-7xxx"
In this case refering to a VLocity.
And only put front or rear x cars if the train is being split:

Good to see they have a similar solution abroad.

I have never seen on of those!

The problem with Man Picc is that it doesn't (or didn't) split it's platforms up into 1a, 1b, 1c etc. It was all just platform 1. Leading to the whole, train at the front, middle and back issue.

At least at Leeds there is a 1a/b/c and then as long as the trains stopped in the correct place it's really then up to the passenger to look at whether it's a/b or c.

As someone alluded to earlier, if the Nottingham is going from 17b and the Knottingley is going from 17a, it's clear to those that look at the platform signage which part of the platform is which.

Obviously, there's an issue if the platforms don't have correct or prominent signage. After all how many people spend ages trying to find platform 2c at Sheffield?

I suppose that given the variety of train lengths using the station it would be difficult to decide where the boundary should be.
 

scrapy

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I'm sure I've seen some platforms with a big movable sign saying "Front train beyond this point"
That's good as long as people walk far enough down to see the sign. when boarding trains passengers generally take little notice of signs anyway as their mind is pre occupied. Will also require a staff member to ensure its left in the correct place.
 

theking

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Hi all, I did a quick search but couldn't find anything discussing this issue so here goes

What is standard practice regarding keeping trains locked or unlocked while sitting on platforms? I showed up at Aberdeen 15 minutes early and tapped through the gates only to find the train locked and passengers sitting on the platform, despite it being "on" (engines running). I tweeted ScotRail about this at the time to ask if the doors could be unlocked but received no response, so submitted a complaint. After an initial "we'll pass that on" I asked again and today I was told that apparently the train needs to be locked as it was sitting there for a few hours and others depart from the same platform. Train crews don't attend the train until five minutes before departure so this is why it was locked.

While it's good ScotRail took the time to write a better response I'm a bit confused. I don't think they'd leave the engines on for "a few hours", why does two trains on the same platform mean one has to be locked, and if the traincrew were there to turn the engines on then why can't they have opened the doors?

I know in the grand scheme of things its only a small problem (a "first world problem"!) which is why I initially tweeted lightheartedly but was disappointed that this didn't receive a response from ScotRail's usually excellent team. Plus the issue is made worse by the low service frequencies (hourly), there being hardly any seats on the platform, and the adjacent Union Square having very little public seating and what is there is hard with no back rest, and much of it is closed due to coronavirus. It is an inconvenience for me but could be an accessibility issue for elderly and/or disabled people who may arrive early for their train.

Is locked trains a common occurrence? Usually, they're left unlocked at Aberdeen. I thought I'd make this thread in case others would like to share their experiences or knowledge. Thanks

Honestly do you have nothing better to do that you have to complain because you couldn't board a train early.

Where does it say in any terms between you and the toc that they must let you board the train early.

What happens when you get to a station mid route do you expect a train to be left there, unlocked for you to sit on because you turned up early for it?

Honestly know wonder tocs take so long to respond to genuine complaints when they have drivel like this to shift through
 

Wolfie

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Whichever way one looks at it, local factors invariable mean local working practices, which essentially means staff.

It’s a pretty shoddy spectacle for a crowd of people to be left standing in the cold until the guard turns up, which in the majority of cases is what people will experience.

“That’s how we do things here” isn’t really acceptable.
Hardly seriously cold or exposed at Euston or Waterloo which people have been citing.

Honestly do you have nothing better to do that you have to complain because you couldn't board a train early.

Where does it say in any terms between you and the toc that they must let you board the train early.

What happens when you get to a station mid route do you expect a train to be left there, unlocked for you to sit on because you turned up early for it?

Honestly know wonder tocs take so long to respond to genuine complaints when they have drivel like this to shift through
First world problems
 
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Aictos

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That's good as long as people walk far enough down to see the sign. when boarding trains passengers generally take little notice of signs anyway as their mind is pre occupied. Will also require a staff member to ensure its left in the correct place.
Agreed, I know London Euston used to have them although that was some time ago I was last had any need to use the station.
 

bramling

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Hardly seriously cold or exposed at Euston or Waterloo which people have been citing.


First world problems

I don’t get this attitude that people should be grateful for what they get. If the original poster felt aggrieved then they have every right to communicate this to the TOC, I can guarantee that the TOCs will be getting a lot worse than that.

Secondly, it’s something which is actually pretty easily resolved, by a simple change to local arrangements.

I don’t buy the comparison with intermediate stations. Are we going to turf people off trains where there’s a few minutes stand time at an intermediate station simply because it’s a “first world problem” for it to be preferable to sit on the train, in greater comfort, and being able to get on with stuff like work?

All I can see in this thread is “this isn’t how we do things here”, and it does unfortunately bring out the worst of the stereotype that the railway is run for the convenience of the staff rather than the end user. Fortunately not everywhere seems to take this attitude - King’s Cross for example have always been very good about opening up trains where possible, including down to station staff being allowed to open up trains (something which over the years they’ve been very proactive in doing as far as possible).

One can’t help but wonder if the attitude that it’s easier to lock up would change if the staff involved were having to go to the bother of closing up an 8 or 12 car train, rather than a 2-car Sprinter. What’s the betting a lot of these “reasons” would disappear, or there be clamour to get them sorted out where there is a genuine technical issue?
 

zwk500

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I don’t get this attitude that people should be grateful for what they get. If the original poster felt aggrieved then they have every right to communicate this to the TOC, I can guarantee that the TOCs will be getting a lot worse than that.

Secondly, it’s something which is actually pretty easily resolved, by a simple change to local arrangements.

I don’t buy the comparison with intermediate stations. Are we going to turf people off trains where there’s a few minutes stand time at an intermediate station simply because it’s a “first world problem” for it to be preferable to sit on the train, in greater comfort, and being able to get on with stuff like work?

All I can see in this thread is “this isn’t how we do things here”, and it does unfortunately bring out the worst of the stereotype that the railway is run for the convenience of the staff rather than the end user. Fortunately not everywhere seems to take this attitude - King’s Cross for example have always been very good about opening up trains where possible, including down to station staff being allowed to open up trains (something which over the years they’ve been very proactive in doing as far as possible).
A lot of people have given constructive answers why it doesn't happen, and the practicalities do vary quite substantially between locations
One can’t help but wonder if the attitude that it’s easier to lock up would change if the staff involved were having to go to the bother of closing up an 8 or 12 car train, rather than a 2-car Sprinter. What’s the betting a lot of these “reasons” would disappear, or there be clamour to get them sorted out where there is a genuine technical issue?
At Euston 8- and 12-car trains are regularly locked until less than 5 minutes before departure. It actually helps space people along the train, incidentally.
 

Wolfie

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I don’t get this attitude that people should be grateful for what they get. If the original poster felt aggrieved then they have every right to communicate this to the TOC, I can guarantee that the TOCs will be getting a lot worse than that.

Secondly, it’s something which is actually pretty easily resolved, by a simple change to local arrangements.

I don’t buy the comparison with intermediate stations. Are we going to turf people off trains where there’s a few minutes stand time at an intermediate station simply because it’s a “first world problem” for it to be preferable to sit on the train, in greater comfort, and being able to get on with stuff like work?

All I can see in this thread is “this isn’t how we do things here”, and it does unfortunately bring out the worst of the stereotype that the railway is run for the convenience of the staff rather than the end user. Fortunately not everywhere seems to take this attitude - King’s Cross for example have always been very good about opening up trains where possible, including down to station staff being allowed to open up trains (something which over the years they’ve been very proactive in doing as far as possible).

One can’t help but wonder if the attitude that it’s easier to lock up would change if the staff involved were having to go to the bother of closing up an 8 or 12 car train, rather than a 2-car Sprinter. What’s the betting a lot of these “reasons” would disappear, or there be clamour to get them sorted out where there is a genuine technical issue?
Ironically l would agree more than you would expect with the general thrust of your argument. I also see that there are issues potentially associated with letting passengers on early
 

LRV3004

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The 101s were sometimes locked up at Piccadilly if they were laying over for a while and only unlocked by dispatchers/guards shortly before they were due to depart. So it's been like this a while.
The 101s were often locked up with a T-key; there was one particular diagram where a set arrived off a morning peak service and stayed in the station all morning and most of the afternoon as it formed the 1556 to Marple.
 

XAM2175

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We put the unit number on our PIDs at Southern Cross:
In the case of a Sprinter it will show up as "SPRINTERS 7xxx-7xxx"
In this case refering to a VLocity.
That's actually for the benefit of the V/Line staff because their docking sheets are so vague, but that's not to say it doesn't help the odd enlightened passenger too :p
 

zwk500

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The 101s were often locked up with a T-key; there was one particular diagram where a set arrived off a morning peak service and stayed in the station all morning and most of the afternoon as it formed the 1556 to Marple.
Northern used to do this with a Sprinter in P7 at York, I guess as a hot spare.
 

43066

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Whichever way one looks at it, local factors invariable mean local working practices, which essentially means staff.

It’s a pretty shoddy spectacle for a crowd of people to be left standing in the cold until the guard turns up, which in the majority of cases is what people will experience.

“That’s how we do things here” isn’t really acceptable.

Rather than a working practice as such, it can happen unintentionally. A very typical scenario at our London terminal is where a train is been brought into the station ECS. The driver will have no way of knowing whether it is going back out in passenger service, or if there is another coming in on top of it to attach.

In this situation releasing the doors would be the wrong thing to so, as the train might then have to be locked out again, causing delays.

The staff working the train may quite rightly prefer to remain in non public areas of the depot for their break, or be busy booking on checking notices etc. and not in a position to board the train 15 minutes earlier than necessary.
 

bramling

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Ironically l would agree more than you would expect with the general thrust of your argument. I also see that there are issues potentially associated with letting passengers on early

I don’t have an issue when there are genuine good reasons (the one about the seat reservation uploading I’d count as one, though equally something for which a technical solution should have been found).

What’s more of a problem is some of the odd reasons cropping up, some of them pretty far-fetched to be honest.

Likewise the thing about people getting on the wrong train. This is essentially transferring the inconvenience from one group of passengers to another, when with the abundance of modern information systems there should be little reason for anyone to find themselves on the wrong train. Closing up trains is a rather clumsy solution simply because the railway can’t find a way of imparting information.
 

ExRes

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when with the abundance of modern information systems there should be little reason for anyone to find themselves on the wrong train. Closing up trains is a rather clumsy solution simply because the railway can’t find a way of imparting information.

But you simply cannot blame the railway when the fault is often with passengers who are determined to take no notice of information
 

theking

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I don’t get this attitude that people should be grateful for what they get. If the original poster felt aggrieved then they have every right to communicate this to the TOC, I can guarantee that the TOCs will be getting a lot worse than that.

Secondly, it’s something which is actually pretty easily resolved, by a simple change to local arrangements.

I don’t buy the comparison with intermediate stations. Are we going to turf people off trains where there’s a few minutes stand time at an intermediate station simply because it’s a “first world problem” for it to be preferable to sit on the train, in greater comfort, and being able to get on with stuff like work?

All I can see in this thread is “this isn’t how we do things here”, and it does unfortunately bring out the worst of the stereotype that the railway is run for the convenience of the staff rather than the end user. Fortunately not everywhere seems to take this attitude - King’s Cross for example have always been very good about opening up trains where possible, including down to station staff being allowed to open up trains (something which over the years they’ve been very proactive in doing as far as possible).

One can’t help but wonder if the attitude that it’s easier to lock up would change if the staff involved were having to go to the bother of closing up an 8 or 12 car train, rather than a 2-car Sprinter. What’s the betting a lot of these “reasons” would disappear, or there be clamour to get them sorted out where there is a genuine technical issue?

It is not the toc's duty to provide anyone with anything if you turn up 15 or 20 minutes before the departure of your train.

If you choose to turn up excessively early for a service then don't moan when you have to wait outside.

What happens if the train comes into the platform 5 mins before departure are you going to bleat to the toc that you had to stand for 10 mins with no unlocked train to sit on.
 

YorksLad12

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Obviously, there's an issue if the platforms don't have correct or prominent signage. After all how many people spend ages trying to find platform 2c at Sheffield?
Probably the same number that can't find P17 at Leeds. I've been walking down the stairs to 16/17 and had someone call across from the up escalator who's trying to find it!
 

unlevel42

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In days of black and white P11 at Manchester Victoria was labelled East, Middle and West, which corresponded to the destinations.
Longer trains were shown as departing 'Middle and West'.
Very much a local solution that worked.
 

LowLevel

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I don’t have an issue when there are genuine good reasons (the one about the seat reservation uploading I’d count as one, though equally something for which a technical solution should have been found).

What’s more of a problem is some of the odd reasons cropping up, some of them pretty far-fetched to be honest.

Likewise the thing about people getting on the wrong train. This is essentially transferring the inconvenience from one group of passengers to another, when with the abundance of modern information systems there should be little reason for anyone to find themselves on the wrong train. Closing up trains is a rather clumsy solution simply because the railway can’t find a way of imparting information.


Ultimately though "Keep It Simple Stupid" comes into play here though.

If you lock the doors on the rear unit people cannot get on the wrong train.

I regularly work a train that comes in empty stock and divides to form two services.

We lock the doors on the rear unit (it departs an hour after the front portion) and turn the lights off.

Regardless of this, and the flashing station sign saying *front train* you will, every single day, still get people standing there pushing the button for the locked door at the first door they come to, looking more and more frustrated and totally ignoring the crowds of people strolling past to the train sat further along with the lights on, doors open and passengers boarding, until someone takes pity on them and goes and drags them along to the correct train.
 

Mat17

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If you lock the doors on the rear unit people cannot get on the wrong train.
It also doesn't help them get on the right train either though :)

I've seen on more than one occasion two trains occupying a platform, each going to different places. So whilst I'm stood waiting for the locked up train at the buffers to be opened up, the front train departs. Once the rear unit is finally opened up I've had people who been stood there as long as me say, 'is this train going to Hull?' Only for me to say, 'no, that was the train that left a few moments ago'.
 

Taunton

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when with the abundance of modern information systems there should be little reason for anyone to find themselves on the wrong train.
This is an interesting sub-point, because despite considerable expenditure on such information systems, they often seem to lack the ability to display much useful stuff. Dot matrix signs that don't have the ability to display quite sufficient words. PA announcements about the "last carriage doors will not open" blasted along the whole long train rather than just in the relevant carriage. Station staff, who are on duty on the platform, unable to do anything about the train display while the crew doesn't turn up until 5 minutes before. And so on.

The DLR at about the same time as the line to Woolwich Arsenal opened specified new dot matrix indicators on trains which were unable, by one character, to display Woolwich Arsenal. As both Woolwich Arse' and Woolwich A'nal were obviously unacceptable, and plain Woolwich was not either because of an obscure second station in the town, it ended up with W'wich Arsenal, abbreviating the key word instead. But did nobody think to work out what had to be displayed before they were purchased?
 
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