Train stabling sidings for Scarborough

[scarby]

According to TPE, a new train servicing depot is to be built in Scarborough, with construction beginning next month:

https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/media-c...ion-in-new-scarborough-depot-creating-15-jobs

Anyone know where the depot will actually be located? Numerous "news" stories on this, including The Scarborough News, just all re-hash TPE's press release.

To hazard a guess, it would have to be either in the old platforms 6-7 (though this would mean, I think, having to re-build track over part of the adjacent bus depot), or, most likely, on the site of the old sidings just beyond the station (to the left as you depart), where there used to be 3 loop sidings and the disconnected tracks are still partly there I think, or even further out somewhere near the turntable.

Any concrete info on its location appreciated.

 

[snowball]

https://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/in-november-2017-issue-depot-plan-threatens-scarborough-charters/

Depot plan threatens Scarborough charters
STEAM and diesel charters to Scarborough may have to be reduced if TransPennine Express (TPE) proposals to build a new maintenance depot at the Yorkshire resort come to fruition.

TPE has submitted plans for a light maintenance depot on the former Appletons Oil sidings to service its new Class 68+Mk 5a push-pull trains, which are due to be introduced in 2018.

However, the disused oil sidings can only be accessed via the Down excursion sidings and platform 1 of Scarborough station, which are frequently used by charter trains.

The sidings also provide access to Scarborough’s turntable, which is essential for turning steam locomotives, and was funded by the local borough council to encourage visitors arriving by rail.

The West Coast Railway Company (WCRC) has formally objected to TPE’s proposal on the basis that it will restrict its ability to operate charter trains to and from the town.

WCRC operates many trains to the town throughout the year, including the ‘Scarborough Spa Express’.

Read more in the November issue of The RM – on sale now!

I don't normally read RM but I happened to see the corresponding item in the paper edition. It's only slightly longer than the online version but I think it said WCRC have suggested an alternative site. I forget where as I'm not personally familiar with the rail layout in the area.

 

[scarby]

Many thanks for that - okay, so it would be further out. I don't understand those logistics with the excursions either, as the depot itself would need to function so that the trains could go straight in/out of platforms 3 and 4 to/from the depot.

 

[blackfive460]

The site for the new depot is on the right hand side as you leave Scarborough beyond the turntable.
With a bit of luck this Google Maps link will show you where it is.

The problem with the site is that, to get access, trains have to use Platform 1 which is also used by charter trains, some of which berth there securely overnight so unless new access is provided from other running lines, this could cause difficulties.

There is supposed to be a programme of work in connection with this beginning early in the new year which involves some track alterations but quite what is being altered isn't clear.

 

[ainsworth74]

The site for the new depot is on the right hand side as you leave Scarborough beyond the turntable.

Is there even room for a depot there?! It seems like it's very tight for space unless they're demolishing some of the business next to it?

 

[blackfive460]

Is there even room for a depot there?! It seems like it's very tight for space unless they're demolishing some of the business next to it?

I believe part of the work involves shortening the existing loop that charter trains use to run round but that is the site in the original proposal. There's no where else that's practical and has easy road access.
The last time those sidings were used was when WCRC ran SSEs based at Scarborough working two round trips to York per day and at that time they managed to get 10 coaches plus a steam loco in there so there's probably more space than you might imagine. Perhaps enough for a two road, covered maintenance facility plus some outside storage?

 

[scarby]

Yes, thanks, blackfive460, that's what I thought, the old oil depot.

I suppose that would work if the movements in/out of the facility were only in the late night/early morning, otherwise it would seem a fiddle to get trains from platform 3/4 to depot, and as you mention, the problem if platform 1 is in use, access to the depot would be blocked off.

Surely a turnout onto the main line out there somewhere would make everything simpler?

 

[lincolnshire]

Well how big has the depot to be to just fuel and empty effluent tanks etc and do minor mtc and repairs? The TPE depot at York is not that large and they are carrying out refurbishments to TPE,s stock under the temporary scaffolding canopy outside on at least one road, so 2 roads at Scarborough will be a luxury depot for fuel, water etc.

 

[jonhewes]

Apparently a mile of new track will be laid early in the year. I'm not sure whether this relates directly to the LMD, or is an enhancement so that charter trains aren't impacted by movements in and out of the depot.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Planning permission has been granted and vegetation clearance has begun already at the site.

 

[IanXC]

Planning permission has been granted and vegetation clearance has begun already at the site.

Are you sure? I can't even find a submitted application on the local Council's website...

 

[BMIFlyer]

100% certain. There were teams of orange army personnel clearing the site today.

I also saw the final plans / layout / artists impression (overlaid onto a satellite image) on paper today. The depot is only 1 Road but long enough for a 12 car length train and will be secure.

 

[IanXC]

100% certain. There were teams of orange army personnel clearing the site today.

I also saw the final plans / layout / artists impression (overlaid onto a satellite image) on paper today. The depot is only 1 Road but long enough for a 12 car length train and will be secure.

I wasn't think so much about the action on the ground, as where planning permission was even required. I can't find any trace of an application having been submitted let alone approved.

 

[BMIFlyer]

I wasn't think so much about the action on the ground, as where planning permission was even required. I can't find any trace of an application having been submitted let alone approved.

Roger that. I shall rephrase - work has begun

 

[MG11]

Are you sure? I can't even find a submitted application on the local Council's website...

I don't think the railways need planning permission from local councils, I think it's just granted by the DFT.

 

[DarloRich]

I don't think the railways need planning permission from local councils, I think it's just granted by the DFT.

it depends on what work is being undertaken, by whom and where

 

[onlinespotting]

it depends on what work is being undertaken, by whom and where

The railway does not need planning permission from the local council if it's on land owned by Network Rail

 

[furnessvale]

The railway does not need planning permission from the local council if it's on land owned by Network Rail

However, I am fairly certain they sometimes "ask" for permission as some sort of courtesy. The bridge in Whaley Bridge desperately needs replacement but the LA is refusing permission in an attempt to stop freight trains using the line. I query the need for permission in the first place.

 

[Goldie]

Here are a couple of photos of the cleared depot site. I couldn’t see any evidence of new track having been laid yet, but I’ll try and get a closer look over the next few days.

 

[DarloRich]

The railway does not need planning permission from the local council if it's on land owned by Network Rail

that is not entirely true.

 

[ainsworth74]

that is not entirely true.

My impression was that if it's railway land then permitted development means they can do pretty much whatever but it's considered good practice to engage with the local planning department?

 

[MarkyT]

My impression was that if it's railway land then permitted development means they can do pretty much whatever but it's considered good practice to engage with the local planning department?

Agreed as long as the development on railway land is wholly concerned with railway operations it comes within permitted development. I guess if a development requires a new road access or otherwise extends beyond railway boundaries then those elements alone would be subject to planning. Dartmouth Steam Railway in Kingswear got into a dispute with the local authority over their new 'signal box' at the station a few years ago. If it had really been a signalbox there would have been no issue at all, but all the signalling on the line is actually controlled form a modest building beside Britannia Crossing, a little way up the estuary, and the new building, although carefully constructed in the style of a traditional wooden box, is actually company offices. I think the grey area is that generally offices and admin blocks are NOT covered by the 'operational use' term, however if it is the operations managers office, that may be considered a different matter. Anyway they must have come to some agreement as the building is still there!

 

[DarloRich]

My impression was that if it's railway land then permitted development means they can do pretty much whatever but it's considered good practice to engage with the local planning department?

It depends what is going to be built. The altered use of the land has to be wholly linked with railway use AND the past use of the land. Building a new depot on a land that was used as an office, say, may not fall within permitted development.

Basically: Your depot shed and ancillaries may need planning permission. Use for storing a train may not.

 

[ainsworth74]

Interesting! Thank you both

 

[swt_passenger]

AIUI the various Acts used to allow all the separate railways to be originally built almost always included some sort of clause to allow operationally necessary modifications and changes, as they realised technology would develop, and there’d need to be a means to adapt facilities.

Some Applications under modern ‘permitted development rights’ that I’ve seen on planning websites often quote the relevant section of the enabling Act - perhaps it helps remind the planning department.

 

[blackfive460]

In the February issue of Today's Railway UK there's mention of this along with an 'artist's impression' of the site apparently supplied by Trans Pennine Express.
It's not exactly clear but there appears to be just a single siding with a few buildings but no covered accommodation for trains.

 

[Goldie]

In the February issue of Today's Railway UK there's mention of this along with an 'artist's impression' of the site apparently supplied by Trans Pennine Express.
It's not exactly clear but there appears to be just a single siding with a few buildings but no covered accommodation for trains.

I guess it’s this image?

(Courtesy of Railway Gazette http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/europe/single-view/view/uk-railway-news-round-up-40.html )

 

[Ploughman]

That gate off the garage forecourt is a long standing railway access point to the west end of the old sidings.
If the extent of the trackwork is as per the image, then any affect on Scarborough Spa excursions should be minimal.

 

[onlinespotting]

that is not entirely true.

In general they do, Of course there are caveats to that but I believe posts prior to this post and after your lasy one have answered this.

 

[Goldie]

Two grainy nocturnal photos showing 1) that the site is nice and clear, but construction hasn’t started; and 2) the rails leading to the site are still the Old Testament jointed bullheads.