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Trainline - Lack of integration of different TOCs tickets and crazy routing

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Royston Vasey

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I've been booking some tickets Royston to Manchester this evening for a Friday out, Sunday return trip in October.

Searching the NXEC and FTPE sites, I can separately get a wide range of trains and fares from Royston - Doncaster and Doncaster - Manchester. Can get advance fares from NXEC and FTPE from the separate websites, from as little as £10 something and £3.30 for the two legs (great value both NXEC and FTPE btw, compared to Virgin's complete lack of advance fares for this trip via Euston, even searching weeks ago!)

Anyway, two issues which I'm not impressed with...

The standard Trainline search Piccadilly to Royston departing after 1700 (a not unreasonable time!) with no via specified, brings up only 1 option:

Station Arr Dep Travel by Service Provider
MANCHESTER PICCADILLY 19:45 Train VIRGIN TRAINS
LONDON EUSTON 23:08 23:08 Tube*
FINSBURY PARK 00:12 00:12 Train FIRST CAPITAL CONNECT
ROYSTON 01:13

Looking for earlier trains gives a ridiculous set of services!!

Station Arr Dep Travel by Service Provider
MANCHESTER PICCADILLY 16:07 Train NORTHERN RAIL
SHEFFIELD 17:32 18:02 Train NORTHERN RAIL
RETFORD 18:43 19:37 Train HULL TRAINS
GRANTHAM 19:56 20:58 Train NATIONAL EXPRESS EAST COAST
PETERBOROUGH 21:19 21:45 Train FIRST CAPITAL CONNECT
HITCHIN 22:28 22:47 Train FIRST CAPITAL CONNECT
ROYSTON 23:04

I don't understand this, because via Doncaster or even York should be a valid route for the journey, having done this before... So why doesn't Trainline etc suggest a FTPE service to Doncaster then NXEC to Stevenage with FCC connection?? This route is quicker, with less changes and satisfies my chosen time. Also specifying via Doncaster says no services match my request. :-? If this isn't a valid route in one ticket, then why not offer two separate tickets?

There was a range of trains I could have got that get me home hours before the suggested routes. In the end, booking four separate tickets, two through NXEC and two through FTPE gave a total of £36 (actually I went 1st class all the way £52). If anyone is interested, actual routing is as follows:

Outward:
12:43 Royston - Hitchin 1258 FCC
13:17 Hitchin - Peterborough 14:05 FCC
14:25 Peterborough - Doncaster 15:25 NXEC
15:42 Doncaster - Manchester Piccadilly 17:03 FTPE

Return:
17:!5 Manchester Piccadilly - Doncaster 18:33 FTPE
19:10 Doncaster - Stevenage 20:32 NXEC
20:42 Stevenage - Royston 21:04 FCC


Long post I know, but two questions

1. Why can't Trainline display this through journey and/or sell me multiple tickets if it has to, especially since it can be done cheaper than the off-peak return?? Why do I have to use four different tickets in two different transactions from two different websites?? There are cheaper and more convenient alternatives, using absolutely reasonable routing, and yet Trainline doesn't display them.

2. Why can't the advance fares I bought be sold from one interface?? NXEC's excellent mixing desk wouldn't display anything but the standard single, even via Leeds (i.e. no competition between TOCs) Ok maybe I don't expect NXEC to sell FTPE only tickets, but why can't I even through Trainline?


Fortunately I can be bothered to search different TOC websites and buy 4 separate tickets, but thousands wouldn't!!

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OwlMan

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1. Why can't Trainline display this through journey and/or sell me multiple tickets if it has to, especially since it can be done cheaper than the off-peak return?? Why do I have to use four different tickets in two different transactions from two different websites?? There are cheaper and more convenient alternatives, using absolutely reasonable routing, and yet Trainline doesn't display them.

trainline is programmed to display through journeys via valid routes using through ticketing - it would be impossible to program it for any possible route involving split ticketing.


2. Why can't the advance fares I bought be sold from one interface?? NXEC's excellent mixing desk wouldn't display anything but the standard single, even via Leeds (i.e. no competition between TOCs) Ok maybe I don't expect NXEC to sell FTPE only tickets, but why can't I even through Trainline?

Both the trainline & NXEC sell advance tickets for al TOCS - I have just tried NXEC and can book a FTPE advance fare of £5 from Doncaster to Manchester.
On NXEX select save journey and then find your next ticket - at the end you can buy all your tickets in one go.


Peter
 

Royston Vasey

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trainline is programmed to display through journeys via valid routes using through ticketing - it would be impossible to program it for any possible route involving split ticketing.

Ok, fair enough. National Rail Enquiries at least show the Multiple Tickets symbol to show it isn't a valid route. But I am surprised Doncaster isn't a vaild route for this journey. Has this changed since June last year? A Saver was valid Stevenage-Doncaster-Leeds-Manchester then, why not now? I don't see why trainline could be programmed like that to make is more user-friendly!

Both the trainline & NXEC sell advance tickets for al TOCS - I have just tried NXEC and can book a FTPE advance fare of £5 from Doncaster to Manchester.
On NXEX select save journey and then find your next ticket - at the end you can buy all your tickets in one go.

Peter

Cheers for that. Still don't see why a single fare can't be shown for the journey, it can always specify how the ticket and price is broken down! Aren't ticket vendors obliged to sell the cheapest possible ticket for the journey available? Doesn't this apply here?

Incidentally I only buy from TOC websites as it is always cheapest, never trainline.
 

yorkie

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Ok, fair enough. National Rail Enquiries at least show the Multiple Tickets symbol to show it isn't a valid route.
But it doesn't sell them. In fact, it's against the rules of impartial retailing to sell split tickets unless the customer specifically asks for them, apparently.

TPE don't seem to allow their AP fares on any connecting services, so you have to split to get a good deal. GC are the same, but I can't think of any others. Maybe Scotrail?
 

OwlMan

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But it doesn't sell them. In fact, it's against the rules of impartial retailing to sell split tickets unless the customer specifically asks for them, apparently.

AIU it isw because there can be so many possibilities of splitting tickets that it would be impossible to check them all and there impossible to sell the cheapest available.
If the customer asks for specific tickets however no check needs to be done on the complete journey.

Peter
 

rail-britain

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First ScotRail do not offer AP tickets cross-TOC, all of their own are for internal journeys only
A classic example would be if you try to book on the Edinburgh - Aberdeen or Edinburgh - Inverness, these AP fares are on local services and not on NXEC or AXC

Ironically, if you know the general route you will be travelling then purchase tickets for each main leg
The savings can be quite amazing!
Try this :
Manchester - Euston (AP tickets)
King Cross - Royston (Open tickets)
or
Manchester - Doncaster
Doncaster - Peterborough / Kings Cross
Peterborough / Kings Cross - Royston

I already do the same when travelling from Cumbernauld to Manchester, purchasing :
Cumbernauld - Glasgow Day Return
Glasgow - Preston AP First
Preston - Manchester CDR
Saves me about £20, and I get to travel First Class between Glasgow and Preston
 

John @ home

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I am surprised Doncaster isn't a vaild route for this journey. Has this changed since June last year? A Saver was valid Stevenage-Doncaster-Leeds-Manchester then, why not now?

Yes, it has changed, and you have discovered another example where "Fares Simplification" has made fares and routeing much more complicated.

Looking at the September 2008 National Routeing Guide for Royston to Manchester Group, the routeing points for Royston are Cambridge and Stevenage Group. We then have to perform the fares check to determine whether Stevenage or Cambridge is the appropriate routeing point for this journey.

Using the Off Peak Return (SVR) / Super Off Peak Return (SSR) fares in The Manual (NFM 01) CD, we have:
Royston - Manchester SVR not London £78.60 CG
Royston - Manchester SVR + London £74.40 9I

Cambridge - Manchester SVR not London £61.80 CG
Cambridge - Manchester SVR + London £77.90 9I

Stevenage - Manchester SVR not London £111.00 1V
Stevenage - Manchester SVR + any permitted £70.60 9I
Stevenage - Manchester SSR not London £69.00 9D

The NRG states "If you are unsure whether a particular routeing point for the origin station is the correct one compare the fare from that routeing point to the destination with the fare for the throughout journey - it is an appropriate routeing point only if that fare is the same or lower than the fare for the throughout journey from the origin station to the destination station."

The Stevenage - Manchester "SVR not London" fare is higher than that fare from Royston, so we must use Cambridge as the routeing point for this journey, unless going by the shortest route.

Clive's Online Routeing Engine (http://www.davros.org/rail/routeing-guide.html) tells us that the shortest route from Royston to Manchester Piccadilly (185 miles 9 chains) is:
Royston - Hitchin - Retford - Sheffield - Chinley - Brinnington - Manchester Piccadilly.
So that remains a valid route.

But the perfectly "reasonable" route via Stevenage and Doncaster, which has been valid for years, is now not valid for an Off Peak Return (SVR) fare on a journey priced by EMT, simply because a different TOC (NXEC) has renamed many of their old Saver Returns as Super Off Peak Returns (SSR) just to accommodate their more expensive former Business Returns as SVR.

Note that travel via Doncaster is still permitted (maps CN+ER+PS) but only if you also go via Cambridge.

I would complain to EMT and NXEC, then to ATOC and Passenger Focus if the TOCs don't fix it.

John
 
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Royston Vasey

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Thanks John, excellent post and very clear.

I think one option did bring up a Cambridge-Peterborough connection but plodding through the Fens and needing two connections rather than one makes it feels like an absolute trek compared to Stevenage. Perhaps less mileage though, not sure.

I think I'm taking advantage of the fact that Stevenage is the routing point for Doncaster from Royston, so Royston to Stevenage adds very little to the cost as it is an "NXEC + connection" ticket. Can't think why it is valid by Cambridge and not Stevenage!? :?

Anyway, your post explains why Doncaster is no longer a valid route, and why I was offered the 6 hour, 5 change journey via Sheffield, Retford, Grantham etc.

Not sure if it is just FTPE's late summer sale http://www.therailwaycentre.com/News%20September2008/050908-FTPE.html but the Doncaster - Manchester singles seem outrageously cheap (from £3.00 IIRC) which has added to the value I can get with this routing.

In a way there's a satisfaction in doing a bit of work to get a good price :D However if a customer can request split tickets at a ticket office, why couldn't there be be a tick box on websites in order to provide an equivalent option...? Appreciate you'd have to specify a via station otherwise there'd be almost infinite possible routes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Try this :
Manchester - Euston (AP tickets)
King Cross - Royston (Open tickets)
or
Manchester - Doncaster
Doncaster - Peterborough / Kings Cross
Peterborough / Kings Cross - Royston

I did try Euston - Manchester AP with an open return Royston to London terminals (£15ish with YP) but the AP tickets always seem to have gone within hours on Virgin unlike any other TOC. Think I got the cheapest option because I as I said above, Royston-Stevenage only adds a few pence to the Stevenage - Doncaster ticket.

Incidentally I only looked at the FTPE article on Railway Centre in the fiorst place as the "End of Summer Ale" headline caught my eye!! :D

Interestingly, I'm going to Cardiff this weekend and FGW sold me a single through ticket from Royston. Well done them!
 
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OwlMan

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Royston asked
.However if a customer can request split tickets at a ticket office, why couldn't there be be a tick box on websites in order to provide an equivalent option...?

You can buy split tickets on a website the same as at a ticket office - in both cases you have to say which tickets you require (e.g, Royston - Stevenage; Stevenage - KingsX, Euston - Manchester;) in both cases you could buy the three tickets required.

Peter
 

yorkie

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In a way there's a satisfaction in doing a bit of work to get a good price :D However if a customer can request split tickets at a ticket office, why couldn't there be be a tick box on websites in order to provide an equivalent option...? Appreciate you'd have to specify a via station otherwise there'd be almost infinite possible routes.
The equivalent option is to put all the tickets in your basket, and pay in one go. That's exactly what you'd do at the ticket office.

Are you asking for thetrainline to suggest split tickets? Can't be done under impartial ticketing, unless no through fare exists at all. This is the case at the ticket office or on a website. It's no different.
 
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