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Trains Arriving at Unlit Stations

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fulmar

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The guard should (and indeed usually does) step out onto the platform and check it is safe to release the doors before he does

I would certainly hope so Neil. In this case though the original poster states that no announcements were made so the guard presumably decided it was indeed safe to release the doors without warning the passengers about the lack of lighting.
 
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Chouette

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I would certainly hope so Neil. In this case though the original poster states that no announcements were made so the guard presumably decided it was indeed safe to release the doors without warning the passengers about the lack of lighting.
I have to say, I've never been warned about lack of lighting - it happens occasionally, but seems to be fairly obvious when it occurs. At most the guard will pop over and ask if I need any help getting off the platform.

(I don't, I carry a small torch with me when travelling at night)
 

PHILIPE

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There has been a lot of discussion on this now but without ever finding out which station it was. I've been through Network Rail's list of stations (ha) but can't find one where the name has to be kept secret.
 
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ComUtoR

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Interesting from a bystander point of view. Do you know how the passengers got out?

Sorry no.

The Driver thought he was doing the right thing by letting people out and even had the authority of the Signaller to do so. None of this was found out till after the fact when the Driver was pulled into the office the next day for a quiet word.

Best guess is that whoever was on call would have been sent down to unlock the station.
 

infobleep

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Sorry no.

The Driver thought he was doing the right thing by letting people out and even had the authority of the Signaller to do so. None of this was found out till after the fact when the Driver was pulled into the office the next day for a quiet word.

Best guess is that whoever was on call would have been sent down to unlock the station.
Well nothing in life is perfect so o hop the word weren't to harsh. If they were I'd hope the signaller got much the same.
 

83G/84D

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What is the procedure in the rule book for where station lighting is defective and ambient lighting is deemed insufficient?

Nothing in the Rule book, TOC's decide what to do. Some of the stations on the Looe branch are or were unlit and after dark trains were not supposed to call at them.

Station lights are either on all the time or on a timer which allows a certain amount of time for the last train running late.
 
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ComUtoR

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It highlights some very important points.

Everyone acted in with the best intent for the passenger but were not aware of what was happening elsewhere. We really are only given limited information and expected to do our job as instructed, without question. If booked not to call, then don't. The incident certainly highlights that importance.

I hope that comes across as clear.



If asked not to call at a station where the lights were out then we must remember that they may be out for a reason and that someone may have deemed it unsafe to stop there. The consequence is as Starmill experienced. Sadly passengers will blame the TOC and a consequence of that may be that an unlit station must not be called at. Then what ?

We also must see the flip side again. You may decide to travel to the next point and it may be the case that travel arrangements had been made or various compensation arrangements have been agreed.

Whenever there is a call to close ticket offices, reduce station staffing, turn lights off local residents light pollution etc, and the Unions go on a a safety rant we need to remember situations like this.
 

cookie365

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There has been a lot of discussion on this now but without ever finding out which station it was. I've been through Network Rail's list of stations (ha) but can't find one where the name has to be kept secret.
Description sounds like Mauldeth Road to me
 

Starmill

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I must say I'm disappointed at the response of certain regular members of the community. Any excuse to have a question my integrity, make a superior or sarcastic comment and otherwise have a pop and you're right there. You're not required to be sympathetic (although some of you clearly are and for that I thank you) but it's poor form to react so defensively when someone openly recounts an unpleasant experience. Despite your nonsense there have been some informed and interesting replies, for which I thank those who focussed on the issue at hand: the question of safety during lighting failures. Again for this I thank you. To clarify:
- I don't think it was relevant what I was wearing, but it was typical winter attire: fleece, coat and boots
- I didn't think adding the location added anything but some of you have reprimanded others in the past for including them, so I just left it out but didn't try to hide it as was claimed, and it has been guessed correctly in any case
- My phone was with me but it only had 2% battery remaining, and that means it can't be used as a torch or the screen's brightness increased. I tried to use it but it was pretty much useless and then it switched itself off anyway.

To conclude my feeling is that some kind of response from the traincrew beyond acting as if everything were normal really was required. This is merely the view of the customer and is based on no knowledge of safety procedure. It will be interesting to see how they choose to respond officially.
 
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fowler9

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I must say I'm disappointed at the response of certain regular members of the community. Any excuse to have a question my integrity, make a superior or sarcastic comment and otherwise have a pop and you're right there. You're not required to be sympathetic (although some of you clearly are and for that I thank you) but it's poor form to react so defensively when someone openly recounts an unpleasant experience. Despite your nonsense there have been some informed and interesting replies, for which I thank those who focussed on the issue at hand: the question of safety during lighting failures. Again for this I thank you. To clarify:
- I don't think it was relevant what I was wearing, but it was typical winter attire: fleece, coat and boots
- I didn't think adding the location added anything but some of you have reprimanded others in the past for including them, so I just left it out but didn't try to hide it as was claimed, and it has been guessed correctly in any case
- My phone was with me but it only had 2% battery remaining, and that means it can't be used as a torch or the screen's brightness increased. I tried to use it but it was pretty much useless and then it switched itself off anyway.

To conclude my feeling is that some kind of response from the traincrew beyond acting as if everything were normal really was required. This is merely the view of the customer and is based on no knowledge of safety procedure. It will be interesting to see how they choose to respond officially.

I will also be interested to hear. Like I said it sounds like a claim waiting to happen. As such whoever is responsible for the lighting probably should get on the case as quickly as possible. Don't mean that to sound mercenary, just that a decent number of complaints I deal with are similar, the oldest complaint I am dealing with in fact. Not railway related.
 

TDK

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Can I turn this around and ask what would happen if there was a passenger at a station where the decision not to stop there had been made?

The driver could be done for a fail to call unless there is something in place within the local agreements that if a station is unlit then the driver can fail to call with their own authority.
 

EbbwJunction1

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If a driver is issued a not to stop notice, it is that - not to stop, not stop if you want to, unless of course there is a red signal on the end of the platform or some other incident.

The driver could be done for a fail to call unless there is something in place within the local agreements that if a station is unlit then the driver can fail to call with their own authority.

Thank you for these comments; I understand them and they help to answer my original question.
 

R Trevithick

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Ramsgreave and Wilpshire is notorious for this and at least one of the CLC stations. Might be Lostock Gralam, but I could be wrong
 

3141

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I was once on the last train from Marylebone and as it approached Denham Golf Club the driver announced that the station lights were out. That gave passengers wishing to alight the option of doing so, and accepting any resulting risk, or staying on board for the next stop (Gerrards Cross) - which is what they'd have had to do if the train had non-stopped Denham GC because it was in darkness - and then finding their way back home. I thought it was a useful piece of information from the driver.

At my local station, Overton in Hampshire, there are no street lights in the roads leading to the station so once you are away from it you are in darkness. As others have pointed out, your eyes adjust very quickly.

At night-time the presence of working platform and/or street lights is absolutely no guarantee that you won't slip on a patch of ice.

I sympathise with the OP and some useful suggestions have been made here about what might be done to ease such a problem, e.g. a button to bring the station lights back on for a few minutes. But I don't think delaying the train (already late in this case) and everyone on board, and thus possibly causing problems for some of them, is the right answer. My view is that an absence of artificial lighting during the hours of darkness is something that will happen now and again. If you really cannot bear being in that situation you should carry a small torch at all times.
 

Minilad

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I must say I'm disappointed at the response of certain regular members of the community. Any excuse to have a question my integrity, make a superior or sarcastic comment and otherwise have a pop and you're right there. You're not required to be sympathetic (although some of you clearly are and for that I thank you) but it's poor form to react so defensively when someone openly recounts an unpleasant experience. Despite your nonsense there have been some informed and interesting replies, for which I thank those who focussed on the issue at hand: the question of safety during lighting failures. Again for this I thank you. To clarify:
- I don't think it was relevant what I was wearing, but it was typical winter attire: fleece, coat and boots
- I didn't think adding the location added anything but some of you have reprimanded others in the past for including them, so I just left it out but didn't try to hide it as was claimed, and it has been guessed correctly in any case
- My phone was with me but it only had 2% battery remaining, and that means it can't be used as a torch or the screen's brightness increased. I tried to use it but it was pretty much useless and then it switched itself off anyway.

To conclude my feeling is that some kind of response from the traincrew beyond acting as if everything were normal really was required. This is merely the view of the customer and is based on no knowledge of safety procedure. It will be interesting to see how they choose to respond officially.

Please don't take this the wrong way as you raised an important point but in your original post there were some hyperbolic comments which didn't really help the point you were trying to put across. The thing about being so shocked you fell and making the point about it being a high crime area, presumably high crime even if the lights are on, distracted from the original point you tried to make.
 

talldave

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Surely a "train-PIR" detector giving 15 minutes lighting would overcome this problem? The clever part of the solution being to differentiate a stopping train from a non-stopping train. Retrofit would hopefully be £100s rather than £1000s.
 

berneyarms

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My phone was with me but it only had 2% battery remaining, and that means it can't be used as a torch or the screen's brightness increased. I tried to use it but it was pretty much useless and then it switched itself off anyway.

Thanks for explaining that - as I said I wasn't in way condoning the lack of lighting at the station, was just curious!

As an aside I do find that carrying a portable battery pack is often handy lest your phone dies when you're out and about - you can get ones that fit in your pocket at a very reasonable price and they will recharge the phone very quickly.
 

najaB

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Surely a "train-PIR" detector giving 15 minutes lighting would overcome this problem? The clever part of the solution being to differentiate a stopping train from a non-stopping train.
PIR might work, but a magnetic switch or mini track circuit on a time delay would be less likely to be 'fooled' by a passing train (or animal).
 

randyrippley

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following the recent floods there were major power cuts in the Lancaster / Morecambe areas. Bare Lane and Morecambe stations were unlit, and Northern refused to run trains on the route during periods of darkness on the grounds of safety. It effectively meant services shut down around 4pm
 

61653 HTAFC

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Guards almost always double check that the whole train is at the platform before releasing all doors, as they should. Sometimes this seems overly cautious at stations like Dewsbury where the platform holds 6 23m cars and the train is a single 142, and I've heard other pax moaning about the 5-second delay. But certain incidents on Merseyrail have shown that it is impossible for guards to be TOO careful, especially as the guard's freedom is potentially at stake.
 

Camden

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I must say I'm disappointed at the response of certain regular members of the community. Any excuse to have a question my integrity, make a superior or sarcastic comment and otherwise have a pop and you're right there. You're not required to be sympathetic (although some of you clearly are and for that I thank you) but it's poor form to react so defensively when someone openly recounts an unpleasant experience. Despite your nonsense there have been some informed and interesting replies, for which I thank those who focussed on the issue at hand: the question of safety during lighting failures. Again for this I thank you. To clarify:
- I don't think it was relevant what I was wearing, but it was typical winter attire: fleece, coat and boots
- I didn't think adding the location added anything but some of you have reprimanded others in the past for including them, so I just left it out but didn't try to hide it as was claimed, and it has been guessed correctly in any case
- My phone was with me but it only had 2% battery remaining, and that means it can't be used as a torch or the screen's brightness increased. I tried to use it but it was pretty much useless and then it switched itself off anyway.

To conclude my feeling is that some kind of response from the traincrew beyond acting as if everything were normal really was required. This is merely the view of the customer and is based on no knowledge of safety procedure. It will be interesting to see how they choose to respond officially.
Re disappointed by response, I do notice some people popping up time and again in response to various messages by various other people, same tone and dismissive content. Not much to say there except that I ignore those messages and move on.

In terms of what happened to you, from what you describe I don't think it is acceptable and I can understand why you would feel unnerved after a slip near a train in any circumstances, let alone one where you feel you could have gone between the train, let alone where you feel you could have gone between the train unnoticed. If that had happened to my partner I would worry about them on every dark night, and if it had happened to me I would be furious.

And aside from any slip hazard of course it's not sensible to be walking around secluded places at night in the dark. Using your phone as a torch is obviously not a sensible solution to any of this!

I think it does deserve being followed up and if the company responsible are dismissive then I would take the issue to your local politicians for them to take up.
 
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AngusH

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hopefully not too off topic...

Perhaps the lighting could be tied to the passenger information system. Which must already know when the last train should arrive and if it is delayed.

I think the required hardware (computer controlled lighting) is already available.



Alternatively, how about a low level of illumination that is permanently switched on arranged along the edges of the paved surfaces. So it would go from bright to dim, rather than bright to off.
 

bramling

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Guards almost always double check that the whole train is at the platform before releasing all doors, as they should. Sometimes this seems overly cautious at stations like Dewsbury where the platform holds 6 23m cars and the train is a single 142, and I've heard other pax moaning about the 5-second delay. But certain incidents on Merseyrail have shown that it is impossible for guards to be TOO careful, especially as the guard's freedom is potentially at stake.

Yes part of being a good railwayman is following routines and procedures even if on occasions it seems overkill, such as in the example described. Once you start going down the road of taking shortcuts, eventually you will get caught out - perhaps it's the day when you're tired, or maybe a passenger distracts you just at the wrong moment, and within a couple of seconds it'll be the day you open up with a unit off the back of the platform, or start off without checking the signal. Routines become second-nature very quickly so something like checking the platform before opening up shouldn't cause too much delay - although autopilot can also introduce risks, see but not see is one known risk.

There is a saying that the Rule Book is written in blood, and many or even most rules are there in response to a past mishap or near-miss.
 
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