Trains that pass thru but dont stop in a country

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's the losses of "Empires" at the end of WW1 that brought most of these weird borders into existence, mostly based on land ownership in past centuries.
This notably affects places in the Austro-Hungarian, Russian and Ottoman empires, now divided into many individual states.
As built, Warsaw-St Petersburg had no borders en route, and Berlin-St Petersburg only one, entering what is now Lithuania from East Prussia (with a gauge change).
Vienna-Trieste was another route originally without borders, and under a single railway management (the Südbahn).
If Vienna-Istanbul had been completed to the original 1860s plan, there would only have been one border, across the Una river at Dobrlijn (now the unused Croatia/Bosnia border between Zagreb and Banja Luka).

Zittau's history is fascinating, having been at different times part of Bohemia, Saxony, Poland and Hungary.

Zittau - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

We will face the same sort of situation if Wales becomes independent, not so much with Scotland as no lines there cross the border multiple times.
Ireland had a similar situation with the Great Northern lines at partition, but today there is only the one cross-border line, between Dundalk and Newry.
GN, later CIE/NIR, used to run trains from Dublin to Bundoran on the west coast until 1957, with a "corridor" loop through Enniskillen in Northern Ireland.

 

[Calthrop]

Ireland had a similar situation with the Great Northern lines at partition, but today there is only the one cross-border line, between Dundalk and Newry.
GN, later CIE/NIR, used to run trains from Dublin to Bundoran on the west coast until 1957, with a "corridor" loop through Enniskillen in Northern Ireland.

This business of the Great Northern Railway of Ireland, and the Border, fascinates me: one of those situations which are regrettable and -- looked at dispassionately -- ridiculous, but with an element of crazy comedy. It has featured recently in the Railway General Knowledge quiz on the "Quizzes and Games" sub-forum; conclusion we reached there, was that the "purely GNR(I)" system ("fringe" outfits with which it had some involvement, aside) intersected with the border at no less than fifteen locations -- nine of them, on just two lines: the Bundoran Junction -- Bundoran branch, and the line south-west from Clones to Cavan / Belturbet. This stuff caused major inconvenience to the GNR(I); but it and its successors managed to cope with it for well over four decades.

 

[MarcVD]

If we look at past situations, it is impossible not to mention the Vennbahn, railway line built by the Germans as a preparation step for their invasion of Belgium, and which ended up in belgian hands after 1918 despite being partially located in Germany.

The entire story of it can be found here, and believe me, it's fascinating:
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vennbahn . It's in French, but Google translates it quite nicely.

The traities said that people using the line to go between German stations could do so without being controlled, and same for people travelling between two belgian stations. But controls had to take place for people traveling between the two countries. So I let you imagine the complexity needed in order to organize that. Entire books have been written on the history of this line...

Half of it, mainly the southern part, did not survive WW2 and specially the ardennes campaign in 1944/45. What remained gradually closed afterwards, the last bits in 2003. Most of it can still be walked or cycled today.

 

[oldman]

There's also a line in the north-west corner of Moldova which is a Ukraine corridor route. I'm not aware what the passenger services are on this route nowadays.

There is still a Chernivtsi-Larha service which has stations in Rumania, but it seems to have been suspended with other cross-border Ukrainian services because of Covid.

There is a map on this page - the line heads south from Larha, crossing the border four times.


Source

 

[route101]

There were a couple in March from Frankfurt/Oder to Kaunas to repatriate people stranded by Polish border closures.

What stock did it use?

There is still a Chernivtsi-Larha service which has stations in Rumania, but it seems to have been suspended with other cross-border Ukrainian services because of Covid.

There is a map on this page - the line heads south from Larha, crossing the border four times.

View attachment 81781
Source

Rumania? Never heard of that country

 

[oldman]

Well, when I say Rumania I mean Moldavia Moldova. As Captain Mainwaring would say 'Just waiting to see who'd be the first one to spot that'.

As to the spelling - you'll be too young to remember - until the late 1970s Rumania was the more common spelling.

Google Ngram.

 

[Calthrop]

Well, when I say Rumania I mean Moldavia. As Captain Mainwaring would say 'Just waiting to see who'd be the first one to spot that'.

As to the spelling - you'll be too young to remember - until the late 1970s Rumania was the more common spelling.

Google Ngram.

Topic-drifting, but: a variant spelling used by English-speaking countries has been, I believe, "Roumania". While being in principle, in favour of nations' right to call / pronounce / spell their nation, however they want -- I can't help finding it a tiny bit annoying that while our convention nowadays is to spell the country "Romania", as the Romanians themselves do: we still pronounce it "Roo-mania". Inconsistency adds colour and fun to life, I suppose...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Topic-drifting, but: a variant spelling used by English-speaking countries has been, I believe, "Roumania". While being in principle, in favour of nations' right to call / pronounce / spell their nation, however they want -- I can't help finding it a tiny bit annoying that while our convention nowadays is to spell the country "Romania", as the Romanians themselves do: we still pronounce it "Roo-mania". Inconsistency adds colour and fun to life, I suppose...

I've also been baffled by Romanian names which include a circumflex over an "a", whether "c" is hard or soft, and how to pronounce "j" (Cluj is definitely Cloodge).
Then the MAV guard will call it by its Hungarian name, Koloszvar...

We still persist in using Czech Republic rather than the official Czechia, although we do seem to have got out of the habit of referring to The Argentine and The Ukraine.
The Basque Country is also a strange term.

 

[Calthrop]

Not wishing to be annoyingly contrary; but I seem to be aware of indications that "j" in Romanian, as with Cluj, is pronounced as in the middle letters of the word "pleasure" -- thus, "Cloozh". (And there is also a -- nowadays very small, I think -- German community in Transylvania, for whom the city is Klausenburg .)

I'd figure that the usage "The Basque Country" is justified by the fact that the Basques don't have their own official nation; but live on both sides of the Franco-Spanish border.

 

[trebor79]

As with the (not now running) Paris-Italy sleeper, I expect there might be some sleepers in eastern Europe which cut through a bit of a country without a scheduled stop. (Does the new Prague-Rijeka night train have stops in every country it goes through?)

I remember getting a sleeper train from Prague to Krakow about 20 years ago. The train passed through Slovakia, stopping at the Czech border so that Slovak border guards with machine guns and big dogs could get on the train. Unlike everywhere else they insisted upon all the lights being turned on and people being woken so they could properly see their faces. They also checked our passport numbers against an impressively massive bound volume of (I presume) lost/stolen passport numbers. There were thousands of pages, clearly ranging from very old to more recent. It was completely hand-written.

Stopped again at the Polish border so they could get off. Didn't actually make any other stops at all within Slovakia.

Edit: it was Budapest to Krakow. Misremembered due to a combination of spending 2 weeks interrialing round Europe with not much sleep and two decades of memory loss!

 

[AlbertBeale]

I've also been baffled by Romanian names which include a circumflex over an "a", whether "c" is hard or soft, and how to pronounce "j" (Cluj is definitely Cloodge).
Then the MAV guard will call it by its Hungarian name, Koloszvar...

We still persist in using Czech Republic rather than the official Czechia, although we do seem to have got out of the habit of referring to The Argentine and The Ukraine.
The Basque Country is also a strange term.

The hard/soft c in Romanian is the same rule as in other Latinic languages such as Italian, French, Portuguese: the k sound before a/o/u, the s sound (French/Portuguese) or ch sound (Italian/Romanian) before e/i. They have various ways of "switching" a c to the other pronunciation - eg in Italian, h after c hardens it before e/i; i after c softens it before a/o/u. All fairly simple - and at least consistent once you know it, unlike "every word for itself" in English!

"Czech Republic" remains [a translation of] the official name, and is still the commonest form of the country name in English; it continues to be the preferred term in various style guides of newspapers etc. (Not to mention in an international information resource that I edit!)

 

[AlbertBeale]

I remember getting a sleeper train from Prague to Krakow about 20 years ago. The train passed through Slovakia, stopping at the Czech border so that Slovak border guards with machine guns and big dogs could get on the train. Unlike everywhere else they insisted upon all the lights being turned on and people being woken so they could properly see their faces. They also checked our passport numbers against an impressively massive bound volume of (I presume) lost/stolen passport numbers. There were thousands of pages, clearly ranging from very old to more recent. It was completely hand-written.

Stopped again at the Polish border so they could get off. Didn't actually make any other stops at all within Slovakia.

Was/is it normal for Prague-Krakow night trains to go via Slovakia? The daytime route doesn't go near Slovakia.

 

[trebor79]

Was/is it normal for Prague-Krakow night trains to go via Slovakia? The daytime route doesn't go near Slovakia.

No idea. Oh, I've just remembered it was Budapest to Krakow.
We went Prague to Budapest but decided not to stay in Budapest as it didn't feel safe, so got a sleeper train the same day to Krakow.

 

[Calthrop]

If we look at past situations, it is impossible not to mention the Vennbahn, railway line built by the Germans as a preparation step for their invasion of Belgium, and which ended up in belgian hands after 1918 despite being partially located in Germany.

The entire story of it can be found here, and believe me, it's fascinating:
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vennbahn . It's in French, but Google translates it quite nicely.

The traities said that people using the line to go between German stations could do so without being controlled, and same for people travelling between two belgian stations. But controls had to take place for people traveling between the two countries. So I let you imagine the complexity needed in order to organize that. Entire books have been written on the history of this line...

Half of it, mainly the southern part, did not survive WW2 and specially the ardennes campaign in 1944/45. What remained gradually closed afterwards, the last bits in 2003. Most of it can still be walked or cycled today.

Coming in rather late here -- I find this post of great interest: having quite recently been in correspondence with an associate, about this international rail oddity. (I admit to not having referred to your linked French Wiki article on the line; but in course of "the above", read its English Wiki equivalent.)

Found it interesting and a bit surprising to learn that the route / system's southern reaches (I take it, south of the junction at Waimes, running to Troisvierges [Luxembourg], plus a couple of branches westward from the main route, to other points on the Liege -- Luxembourg main line) ceased to be, as long ago as end of World War II; due to the havoc wrought in those parts, by that conflict. A short article on the Vennbahn found elsewhere -- published in the 1990s -- told of this southern end of the system as "having been dismantled", but gave no indication as to when.

One learns that through the decade of the 1990s and a little longer (up to 2001 or 2003, depending on which source referred to): there were regular tourist / "heritage" passenger workings on sections of the, as then, surviving parts of the Vennbahn: running from Eupen, variously to Trois Ponts (again on Liege -- Luxembourg route) and to points on a branch running eastward from the Vennbahn's "main" toward the German border. These were largely diesel-hauled, I gather; but with some input from a German 2-10-0 of class 50. Would have been fascinating to travel on, for those who like historical / geographical "strange things" of this kind; and in a scenic area -- though one journal commented that most of the route ran through lengthy belts of trees, which tended to spoil the view...

 

[Beebman]

There are some complications of both types around Zittau in SE Germany.
This includes an ABC example (to Liberec in CZ) where Poland was reluctant to upgrade the section on its territory.

I've found a couple of cabride videos which show this 'ABC' section between Zittau and Hrádek nad Nisou (to the west of Liberec):

Eastbound:

Westbound:

The rather overgrown and speed-restricted Polish section of the line begins at 3:25 in the first video and at 2:05 in the second one.

 

[Cloud Strife]

As a long-time resident of Poland, the situation there is nothing short of a disgrace. There were offers made to PKP to sort out the transit route and to build a station, but this was rejected. It's actually quite an annoyance for Polish passengers, because a station at Porajów would allow passengers to buy tickets in PLN rather than in EUR/CZK. The station even exists there, but for some reason or another, there's simply no will to get this sorted.

There's an answer to a question by an MP in 2009 about this issue, and as far as I know, nothing has changed since then:

Odpowiedź na interpelację w sprawie uruchomienia przystanku kolejowego w miejscowości Porajów gm. Bogatynia na tranzytowym odcinku relacji Zittau - Hradek nad Nysą - Liberec oraz w sprawie zmiany treści umowy między Polską Rzecząpospolitą Ludową a Cz

orka2.sejm.gov.pl

 

[Memma]

There's an interesting issue with exactly this on trains between Astana or Almaty and Moscow which exit Kazakhstan, cross a small piece of Russia, re-enter Kazakhstan and then finally back into Russia, all in the space of about 400km.
When I caught this train it was an excruciating 3 hour border process each time the train crossed a border - so 9 hours in one day being interrogated by border officials....

 

[gysev]

Found it interesting and a bit surprising to learn that the route / system's southern reaches (I take it, south of the junction at Waimes, running to Troisvierges [Luxembourg], plus a couple of branches westward from the main route, to other points on the Liege -- Luxembourg main line) ceased to be, as long ago as end of World War II; due to the havoc wrought in those parts, by that conflict. A short article on the Vennbahn found elsewhere -- published in the 1990s -- told of this southern end of the system as "having been dismantled", but gave no indication as to when.

Indeed, only the Lommersweiler - Reuland and Born - Vielsalm lines were closed because they were almost completely destroyed during WWII. Oddly enough, Trois-Vièrges - Reuland retained its freight service until 1962 - a SNCB train worked from Gouvy through Luxembourg to reach this short isolated line.

As for the other sections:
- Lommersweiler - Steinebrück (- Bleialf) was used for freight until 1955
- Sankt-Vith - Lommersweiler lost its passenger service in 1952, freight in 1955
- Sankt-Vith - Gouvy lost its passenger service in 1952. Through freight ended in 1954 because a wooden bridge (built by the American army to replace a bombed bridge) became instable. Gouvy - Maldingen saw freight service until 1963.
- Sankt-Vith - Weismes (or Waimes in French) became freight-only in 1952. The last freight train ran in september 1982.

 

[Calthrop]

Indeed, only the Lommersweiler - Reuland and Born - Vielsalm lines were closed because they were almost completely destroyed during WWII. Oddly enough, Trois-Vièrges - Reuland retained its freight service until 1962 - a SNCB train worked from Gouvy through Luxembourg to reach this short isolated line.

As for the other sections:
- Lommersweiler - Steinebrück (- Bleialf) was used for freight until 1955
- Sankt-Vith - Lommersweiler lost its passenger service in 1952, freight in 1955
- Sankt-Vith - Gouvy lost its passenger service in 1952. Through freight ended in 1954 because a wooden bridge (built by the American army to replace a bombed bridge) became instable. Gouvy - Maldingen saw freight service until 1963.
- Sankt-Vith - Weismes (or Waimes in French) became freight-only in 1952. The last freight train ran in september 1982.

Thank you -- extremely interesting. I'd have been a bit surprised if the entire southern part of "Vennbahn and branches" had indeed undergone total abandonment as a result of World War II wrecking of stuff in the area. 1952 seems, then, to have been the "black year" for passenger withdrawals on the surviving bits of this cluster of lines. Intriguing that freight St. Vith -- Weismes / Waimes, continued until as late as 1982.

Topic-drifting: but I'm finding invaluable for understanding the whereabouts and layout of these places and lines, the reprint by GeraMond of the Opitz 1935 German Reise-Atlas, scale 1:600,000, of the rail and road systems throughout Germany as at the mid-1930s; a copy of which I possess -- shows every rail line then active in Germany, with meticulous care. The maps extend in equal detail into areas of other countries, bordering on Germany, which fall within the span of the page concerned (also, an element of taking care to include areas which the work's makers considered ought still to be German !). This atlas shows the Vennbahn and its branches and connections, with the most excellent clarity.

 

[SHD]

In the same area, the history of Neutral Moresnet is quite fascinating. A tiny triangular-shaped stretch of land which was born out of the Vienna Congress and the fall of the Napoleonic empire. It had the Continent’s bigger zinc ore reserves, which explains why in 1816 the Netherlands and Prussia each claimed the area, and found a compromise solution in the form of Neutral Moresnet, which lasted until 1914 (with Belgium taking over the Netherlands’ role after 1830).

And it had a railway connection, too! (Built in the 1870s)

If you wander in the area between Liège and Aachen, I recommend a visit to the museum of the Vieille-Montagne in what is today the Belgian commune of Kelmis/ La Calamine, and formerly was Neutral Moresnet (Vieille-Montagne is the name of the hill which harbored the coveted zinc reserves and also the name of the mining company).

 

[Cloud Strife]

The Polish / German example above is one of which I have some experience.
German trains from Gorlitz to Zittau call at the Polish station named Krzewina Zgorzelecka where there is a footbridge over the river to the German village of Ostritz. A Polish border guard waits at the Polish end of the bridge, and unlocks the gate so that German passengers alighting from the trains can cross the river back into Germany.

The station lies on the route from Wegliniec to Bogatynia, which used to have regular passenger services. One day, on my way home to the UK after a week bashing steam in Poland, I decided to see if there was a loophole in the border arrangements. I alighted from PKP train at the station, wandered round for a bit, said hello to the border guard, and explained I was travelling to Zittau. That's fine, just don't wander off the station. Zittau train arrives, I got on, alighted in Zittau, and thus entered the EU without any passport or immigration checks (this being before Poland was an EU member).

Did the Polish border guard check your passport? Generally speaking, it was quite common for checks to be missing on the PL-CZ/D/SK borders before Poland joined the EU, as there were numerous tourist crossings which were randomly and not systematically. Probably in this case, the border guard would have denied you permission to travel onwards to Zittau if they'd had doubts about your ability to enter Germany legally, or they would have contacted their German counterparts to be present on arrival.

By the way, do you remember if there were any controls of Germans heading to/from Ostritz for that train? I'm led to believe that after 1989, as long as passengers went straight to/from the bridge, there were no controls, with the only controls being if someone wanted to cross the bridge without arriving on the Gorlitz-Zittau train.

(As a disappointing note, the border control facilities have now been demolished in Zittau, much to my dismay)

Further east, Czech trains from Jesenik to Krnov used to call at the Polish station of Glucholazy to reverse, without stopping for passengers. I think that has been an open stop for some time now.

Yes, however, the stupidity doesn't end there. The station itself is pretty useless for Gluchołazy, and while there are plans to open up another platform at Głuchołazy-Miasto, they're predictably stuck going nowhere. Before it opened for passengers, it was really quite illogical why a border crossing didn't function there.

 

[CW2]

Did the Polish border guard check your passport? Generally speaking, it was quite common for checks to be missing on the PL-CZ/D/SK borders before Poland joined the EU, as there were numerous tourist crossings which were randomly and not systematically. Probably in this case, the border guard would have denied you permission to travel onwards to Zittau if they'd had doubts about your ability to enter Germany legally, or they would have contacted their German counterparts to be present on arrival.

By the way, do you remember if there were any controls of Germans heading to/from Ostritz for that train? I'm led to believe that after 1989, as long as passengers went straight to/from the bridge, there were no controls, with the only controls being if someone wanted to cross the bridge without arriving on the Gorlitz-Zittau train.

(As a disappointing note, the border control facilities have now been demolished in Zittau, much to my dismay)

Yes, however, the stupidity doesn't end there. The station itself is pretty useless for Gluchołazy, and while there are plans to open up another platform at Głuchołazy-Miasto, they're predictably stuck going nowhere. Before it opened for passengers, it was really quite illogical why a border crossing didn't function there.

My experience was that the DDR / Poland border was pretty well guarded and patrolled.
There were actually two guards, neither of whom wanted to see any paperwork from me - and interestingly they could only speak Polish, not German, so they couldn't even talk to the locals.
I think there was a cursory check of identity cards for the locals using the bridge to Ostritz, the gate to which was usually locked, only being unlocked when a train was due.

 

[Beebman]

My experience was that the DDR / Poland border was pretty well guarded and patrolled.
There were actually two guards, neither of whom wanted to see any paperwork from me - and interestingly they could only speak Polish, not German, so they couldn't even talk to the locals.
I think there was a cursory check of identity cards for the locals using the bridge to Ostritz, the gate to which was usually locked, only being unlocked when a train was due.

I did the line in August 1997 (with a 219 on 2 ex-DR compartment coaches). During the pause at Krzewina Zgorzelecka I noticed that there was a border guard in place by the footbridge to Ostritz. However during the stop most of my interest was with the various Polish traders who had set up stalls on the platform and were selling goods such as clothes, beer and food at cheaper prices than in Germany. The stop was brief so they had to try and make sales very quickly to people on the train! I'd heard about this before I made the journey but I don't know for how much longer it lasted, maybe until Poland joined the EU?

Here's a cab ride video of the line which I've found:

Border crossings are at 11:04, 12:31, 12:49 and 24:46. Krzewina Zgorzelecka station is at 20:40.

 

[Howardh]

When the Berlin wall was up, didn't local trains from both sides go through the other's territory without stopping?

 

[randyrippley]

Do trains between Kaliningrad and the rest of Russia stop in Poland?

 

[RT4038]

Do trains between Kaliningrad and the rest of Russia stop in Poland?

Don't think they go through Poland.

However, they do go through Lithuania, and yes they do stop there (Vilnius).

 

[MarcVD]

When the Berlin wall was up, didn't local trains from both sides go through the other's territory without stopping?

One metro line of the west Berlin network had a section, without stopping, in the east Berlin territory.
And of course, trains from west Germany to Berlin did not stop anywhere in east Germany.
I’m not aware of any public transport line of east Germany that wandered into the west.

 

[mikeg]

Belgrade to Bar, Montenegro briefly passes through Bosnia and Herzegovina, the trains did not historically stop there although Wikipedia now claims three trains a day do. There's no border checks, especially not on the services that don't stop.

 

[mikeg]

One metro line of the west Berlin network had a section, without stopping, in the east Berlin territory.
And of course, trains from west Germany to Berlin did not stop anywhere in east Germany.
I’m not aware of any public transport line of east Germany that wandered into the west.

Said metro line I believe did at one point stop in the German Democratic Republic,at Friedrichstrasse, or at least in its border, where there was an intershop without passing through passport control, enabling Wessis to buy cheap booze and fags, and the GDR to earn hard currency.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Don't think they go through Poland.

However, they do go through Lithuania, and yes they do stop there (Vilnius).

To get from Kaliningrad to the rest of Russia requires going through at least two other countries en route - the most direct way to most places being via Lithuania and Belarus; though if heading towards St Petersburg, via Lithuania and Latvia is more direct.