Trains with Disused Gangways

[superalbs]

I would take anything posted by the social media team as a believe it when I see it. Seems a bit daft considering that off peak many stations such as Hadley wood don’t have people wanting to use every door off peak. (Although this is true at Essex road).

Considering these are air conditioned trains opening door unnecessarily will compromise the passenger environment. This was actually one of the reasons why the 313 had the buttons reinstalled in the 1990s

For me rule one of dealing with GTR. Take whatever is posted from the social media team as guidance - not fact. They get things incorrect a lot. For example the said that using the corridor connections on the 387s was unsafe. I challenged this post with their senior management with the view why is your company putting passenger at risk using them on Gatwick express. Should I be highlighting this to ORR. They responded that in the end that the social media team had posted incorrect information and they don’t use the connections because they are inept at running a TOC. (Ok they really said they haven’t trained the staff and hope to use them again in the future. Probably will be when we get someone decent running the franchise)

They frequently get things wrong about ticket acceptance on buses. When trains will stop etc. Many times since May we have seen them state train x will stop at y. Passengers on the platform report it passing non-stop. A admit it possibly was the plan but it just re-enforcing the point that what they post is often not fact.

I digress. But i will wait and see when the come into operation. I doubt the social media team have the knowledge. If they do I don’t see the benefits to opening all door all the time. A big step backwards to the 313s in the 1980s it wasn’t popular then.

To defend them. They are only as good as the information provided. (I hope they are wrong. It will make the journeys much less enjoyable on a cold winter evening or hot summer day having doors open unnecessarily - why bother with climate control?)

Aren't most splits and joins at Cambridge now? That's a Greater Anglia station.

It was certainly wrong to say the corridor connections are unsafe though. Would have been easier to say the real reason, but I suppose they thought they weren't going to be blaming anyone by saying unsafe.. even though once you say something is unsafe you're going to have to expect further questions.

I'm astonished that GTR runs units with the inter unit gangways locked. I can't think of any other TOC that does this.

Terrible customer service from a terrible operator. Apparently as they don’t have their own staff at Cambridge they can’t trust the GA staff to do it. They operate the same units on Gatwick express with them in use. They could have resolved this but now if you get on the wrong unit and want to use Ashwell and Morden you are in for a longer ride than you expected as it is not possible to correct your mistake.

Greater Anglia do so too apparently.

SW 455s do too I think?

I believe the requirement to open / close connections on 387s was aborted when it was decreed two drivers were required (by ASLEF) to meet the timings at Cambridge. I may be wrong.

Not to mention 318s in Scotland and 455s on Southern having the connections removed.

The one plus with 387s on the GN is that they do at least allow emergency front / rear egress in the single bore tunnels. 365s obviousy do not, but then LNER, Hull, GC and charters don't either.

And the Class 450s/444s too because they certainly did in SWT days.

Do they not allow that anymore on the Desiro fleet? It's still available on the sprinter fleet for sure.

.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Gangways are always in use on Southern Electrostars and on all Desiros where they are fitted.

 

[Failed Unit]

The 317s were locked out of use on GN. Don’t think the 458s were ever used in public service.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Had a pair of 150/2s earlier from Dewsbury to Batley. Connecting door on the rear of the front unit was locked.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Had a pair of 150/2s earlier from Dewsbury to Batley. Connecting door on the rear of the front unit was locked.

I suspect this is sheer laziness, after all it's too much for the Northern random unit generator to ensure that gangwayed units are paired up, let alone to be bothered actually opening them.

 

[Fincra5]

All SN Electrostars have the gangways in use. 387s on GX and GWR do too.

I suspect the reason for them being OOU on GN is that GA staff at Cambridge are not trained to split/ detach them.

On GTR its the platform staff who do the doors of the end gangways on Electrostars. Drivers merely close the middle door (unless we're being helpful) - on which the DOO screens/ GSM-R and so on sit.

 

[grid56126]

The 317s were locked out of use on GN. Don’t think the 458s were ever used in public service.

Only between Cambridge and Royston when on a stopper when the back 4 were locked up . These were opened up at Royston. This was certainly the case until Jan 2006. I left then so may have changed for the last few years?

 

[Mogster]

We had a couple of 156s from Southport the other week. I was quite amazed when the gangway between the units was open. It seems they swop the 2 car units around so much that most of the time they just can’t be bothered.

 

[MrPIC]

GA 379's operate with the corridor connection open, 317's however, do not anymore.

 

[Failed Unit]

Only between Cambridge and Royston when on a stopper when the back 4 were locked up . These were opened up at Royston. This was certainly the case until Jan 2006. I left then so may have changed for the last few years?

I understand a pair of 317s split at Hitchin and the practice of using the connections ended at that point. Certainly towards the end they were not. So trains such as the 1852 London - Cambridge used to announce that passengers would have time to move forward at WGC after the service was split. Others which were 8 car from Cambridge never had the doors open from Royston under GTR.

When the 387s arrived they started using the doors on the same diagrams. Then they decided not to use them on all diagrams including the ones that never split (for consistency). The 387s don’t serve my route anymore. I think however this is still the case.

 

[gazthomas]

318as had theirs removed of course. Can't beat that

 

[Failed Unit]

318as had theirs removed of course. Can't beat that

Love the irony of this when you look at all the problems having gangways on the 385s has caused.

I know people say no-one used them. But I must admit a 158 pair was more desirable than a 170 + any unit. You often had the front set empty and rear full. (Or fare dodger going for the one the guard wasn’t in)

The southern 455s had theirs removed. Another franchise that uses corridor connections where possible on other routes.

 

[Muzer]

I believe 458/0 gangways were never used, and 455 gangways also tend to be locked out. SWR 158, 159, 444, and 450 gangways are all definitely in regular use — this is important both for SDO purposes and because there's a reasonable amount of portion working!

 

[Meerkat]

If they locked the gangways on the Desiros the London end unit at Waterloo would end up rammed!!

 

[TEW]

I believe 458/0 gangways were never used, and 455 gangways also tend to be locked out. SWR 158, 159, 444, and 450 gangways are all definitely in regular use — this is important both for SDO purposes and because there's a reasonable amount of portion working!

455 gangways are not suitable for passenger use because access to the non driving side of the cab cannot be blocked off, but they are is use for staff. Similarly 458/0 gangways were deemed unsuitable for passenger use due to a large step, but were available for staff use.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

A guard clearly forgot to lock a 458/5 gangway once and I walked through it not knowing I wasn’t supposed to. I came out the other end and he was in the first class compartment there - his shock!

 

[Bletchleyite]

What issue is caused by passenger access to the non driving side of the cab?

 

[Helvellyn]

A guard clearly forgot to lock a 458/5 gangway once and I walked through it not knowing I wasn’t supposed to. I came out the other end and he was in the first class compartment there - his shock!

458/5 gangways are designed to ge open although many Guards close them off.

458/0 gangways were only open when first introduced but due to the cumbersome nature of the foldaway design they were kept locked away so the two units had no direct connection. For a few years before conversion to 458/5 SWT reactivated the gangways with Wimbledon Park operating the units as semi-permanent coupled pairs. However, they weren't for public access between units but just to give the Guard better access to the whole train (resetting alarms, efc) like on 455s.

 

[BurtonM]

On the continent, NS 4000 Intercity Materieel 'Koplopers' have their gangways locked.

 

[bionic]

What issue is caused by passenger access to the non driving side of the cab?

They could access safety equipment, isolation switches and cocks, MCBs, brake plunger, cab door controls etc. Basically stuff you wouldn't want the public having access to.

 

[Val3ntine]

A guard clearly forgot to lock a 458/5 gangway once and I walked through it not knowing I wasn’t supposed to. I came out the other end and he was in the first class compartment there - his shock!

458/5’s are meant to be kept open, a lot of guards lock it off due to the seriously confined space when working in the cab. I do believe if you want to walk through a gentle tap on the door and a polite word should do it

 

[KevinTurvey]

The 507/508 when doubled up remain locked off to the public, presumably as there is no shroud fitted, although these were only intended for emergency escape use in tunnels, I believe. Is this similar to the 319's?

 

[TEW]

What issue is caused by passenger access to the non driving side of the cab?

Anybody would be able to open the cab vestibule exetrior door using a foot pedal, which would clearly be a safety issue.

 

[MisterT]

On the continent, NS 4000 Intercity Materieel 'Koplopers' have their gangways locked.

Actually, they don't have gangways anymore. The whole system was removed with the last refurbishment and the space is now used for various systems like the passenger information system, wifi and other IT systems.
The gangways were deemed to be too unreliable and too time-consuming for quick splitting and joining train sets, so they hadn't been in use for a few years, even before the refurbishment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anybody would be able to open the cab vestibule exetrior door using a foot pedal, which would clearly be a safety issue.

That's very poor design. Could it not be fixed?

 

[Bikeman78]

455 gangways are not suitable for passenger use because access to the non driving side of the cab cannot be blocked off, but they are is use for staff. Similarly 458/0 gangways were deemed unsuitable for passenger use due to a large step, but were available for staff use.

On the CIG/VEP units it was very easy to access the second man's side of the cab. In fact some commuters did it regularly and sat on the seat! The only thing that might potentially have caused a problem was the handbrake but I'm not aware of anyone being stupid enough to wind it on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the CIG/VEP units it was very easy to access the second man's side of the cab. In fact some commuters did it regularly and sat on the seat! The only thing that might potentially have caused a problem was the handbrake but I'm not aware of anyone being stupid enough to wind it on.

Even if they did, the effect would be similar to pulling the cord back then anyway.

 

[Bikeman78]

All SN Electrostars have the gangways in use. 387s on GX and GWR do too.

I suspect the reason for them being OOU on GN is that GA staff at Cambridge are not trained to split/ detach them.

On GTR its the platform staff who do the doors of the end gangways on Electrostars. Drivers merely close the middle door (unless we're being helpful) - on which the DOO screens/ GSM-R and so on sit.

How hard is it to open or shut the end doors on 377/379/387? I'm trying to remember who opened/closed them on the Southern slam door units. I have a feeling that platform staff did the rear of the front unit and the driver that did the split/join did the front of the rear unit.

 

[Bikeman78]

Even if they did, the effect would be similar to pulling the cord back then anyway.

I'm not convinced that is right. Pulling the cord would dump the air and apply the brakes throughout the train. Screwing down the handbrake only applies the brakes on one vehicle. On a 12 car it might not cause enough drag for the driver to notice so there would be a serious risk of the brakes overheating or wheel flats.

 

[TEW]

That's very poor design. Could it not be fixed?

The solution presumably would have been fitting a door that allowed the non driving side of the cab to be closed off when the gangway was in use, similar to 15x units of the same era. Little point doing it now with the units due for withdrawal in the next few years. A 455 cab and gangway is basically the same as 150, so I see no technical reason it couldn't have been done.