Traksy Website

[takno]

Is that where the boundary between boxes is?

It is indeed. Essentially the way box boundaries are done varies from integration to integration, but it's not unusual to have a situation where the first signal in a box acts like an approach berth and is populated before the train has passed the last signal in the box before. In this case it actually looks like the feed hasn't reliably cleared when the train exits. Sometimes the feed can be mangled to make it look a bit cleaner, and sometimes we just don't really know exactly where it is.

Couple of observations:

Thorntonhall (East Kilbride line) has the platform on the wrong side of the track. I think it’s all one word as well.

Innerwick GSP (ECML between Dunbar and Berwick) - it’s been two fully signalled crossovers controlled from Edinburgh since 1987 (I was the designer!)

I've changed all these and made a bunch of other improvements to the Paisley Map. Incidentally, Innerwick is still listed as "Innerwick G.S.P." in the timing points database, so clearly somebody in Network Rail is having trouble letting go.

 

[MadMac]

I've changed all these and made a bunch of other improvements to the Paisley Map. Incidentally, Innerwick is still listed as "Innerwick G.S.P." in the timing points database, so clearly somebody in Network Rail is having trouble letting go.

I’m retired BR and not entirely surprised

 

[zwk500]

I've changed all these and made a bunch of other improvements to the Paisley Map. Incidentally, Innerwick is still listed as "Innerwick G.S.P." in the timing points database, so clearly somebody in Network Rail is having trouble letting go.

Not so much a person as the system - changing the TIPLOC is a right old pain due to how the data works, and updating all the lists is not easy. Liverpool South Parkway is still ALRTN on it's code, for instance.

 

[Tom]

Changing the description of a TIPLOC is a much more routine job though, I don't think you really need to care about the TIPLOC too much.

 

[Starmill]

It is indeed. Essentially the way box boundaries are done varies from integration to integration, but it's not unusual to have a situation where the first signal in a box acts like an approach berth and is populated before the train has passed the last signal in the box before. In this case it actually looks like the feed hasn't reliably cleared when the train exits. Sometimes the feed can be mangled to make it look a bit cleaner, and sometimes we just don't really know exactly where it is.

Yes. Unfortunately, it's a common problem isn't it, where trains which cross the fringe either briefly vanish completely or briefly appear twice. There's always not an obvious fix, unfortunately!

 

[chrisjo]

What are the blocks of berths that I see in various places with no lines running through them?



A few minutes later..

 

[takno]

What are the blocks of berths that I see in various places with no lines running through them?

View attachment 175103

A few minutes later..

View attachment 175104

They're usually a block of berths which have at some point had trains in them but which we can't place on a map. There were some around Waterloo' which represent trains moving from one signalling panel to another for example, which I think eventually got removed because it was obvious they were just duplicating information.

In this case the first lot probably represent arrival berths in various sidings, but with no accurate plan of the yards or any good way to map what goes where it's impossible to make good use of them.

The ones around Gretna are fringe berths. The signalling going down that line isn't actually run by Carlisle Box, and has been added into the feed using some kind of ad-hoc late 20th century magic. The upshot is all sorts of duplicate berths, and a guessing game to figure out what the most effective ones to add to the map are. We could probably just delete the spare ones now, but it's sometimes interesting or useful to be able to watch for patterns in them.

 

[chrisjo]

We could probably just delete the spare ones now, but it's sometimes interesting or useful to be able to watch for patterns in them.

Thank you. There's a few more at Cardiff Canton which are clearly berths in the sidings that don't easily fit onto the track diagram. They are definitely useful.

 

[Annetts key]

A lot of the complexity is due to the source of this information. It’s derived from the railway’s train describer (TD) systems.

Firstly, in the past there were many different manufacturers and systems used. Each of which works slightly differently.

Secondly, if you disregard the modern signalling centres for the time being, each TD equipped signal box or power signal box had it’s own “stand alone” TD system.

The only communication between these was (typically) a MODEM link over a physical telephone line (a “private wire” circuit, not a “dial” line) or via a telecommunications multiplex/transmission system.

As these MODEMs were slow (300 to 1200 baud), only the data for a single train description was sent and only when said train moved towards the next signal box. This also kept the circuitry for the ‘link’ simple.

To give the signaller in the next box advance warning of an approaching train, the train description was sent well before the train had left the area of control of the signal box area that it was under. This could be three, four or more signal sections before the train left the control area of the first signal box.

Hence the same train description would be shown in two different signal boxes at the same time. With some systems, this approaching train description was shown in the “1st train arriving” “berth”. With other systems there may even be a “2nd train arriving” “berth”. While others just had the train description show in the berth of the first signal on the line (for that box).

If there was a diverging junction before the line got to the control area of the next box, the point at which the transmission of the train description would be sent also depended on if a route was set across the junction and which route was set. So if the signaller had routed through the junction well before the train approached the junction, then the train description would be sent earlier compared to the route only being called once the train was at almost at the protecting signal for the junction.

As TD systems got more complex, more data was sent across the MODEM links. Hence now the TD system may have train data shown on a display “page” that relates to the area of an adjacent signal box.

Some systems can also route TD data via these links for the sole purpose of getting this data to a TD system that forwards the data to other Network Rail data systems.

Modern systems can also transmit “route set”, diagnostic and link status information/data.

And there are also hidden berths and semi-hidden berths. The signaller can’t see a hidden berth. But a hidden berth can contain a train description. The system copies the train description from the hidden berth or semi-hidden berth to another berth that the signaller can see. This is typically used in bay platforms, loops, sidings, platform lines or for some sections of bi-directional lines.

Unless you know the details, trying to reverse engineer some of this is not straightforward.

 

[WirralLine]

I'm finding Traksy has suddenly become inundated with ads to the point it has become unusable on my phone now unfortunately. Samsung S24 Ultra using Firefox.

 

[chrisjo]

I'm not seeing any ads on Traksy on my phone (Pixel + Chrome), apart from a very small one on the home page suggesting I subscribe to see the New Traksy.

 

[trainmania100]

I'm finding Traksy has suddenly become inundated with ads to the point it has become unusable on my phone now unfortunately. Samsung S24 Ultra using Firefox.

Just had this come up although it is easily collapsing with the arrow top left.

You can probably get rid of them with a Traksy premium plan to help support the site? I can't afford it personally but the one month I did try it, I was impressed by the sleekness and new design. It also has c2c allocations.

 

[takno]

I'm finding Traksy has suddenly become inundated with ads to the point it has become unusable on my phone now unfortunately. Samsung S24 Ultra using Firefox.

What are you finding unusable? Is it making the browser unresponsive, or is it that too much of the screen is being taken up by adverts, or something else? In general I'm trying to keep the effect on the maps themselves to a minimum (easily minimized small ad on the bottom of the screen, and not all the time), but putting more ads on the search page to compensate. I don't necessarily see how things look in all scenarios though, so it's difficult to get the right balance.

If you're able to screenshot (or video) places where it's problematic and send it to [email protected] I can see if I can tune things a bit

Just had this come up although it is easily collapsing with the arrow top left.

You can probably get rid of them with a Traksy premium plan to help support the site?

View attachment 175757

It's a bit annoying that some of the collapsing ones are quite so big - most of them start a lot smaller and only expand if you click on them. As noted they all reduce down to just the little arrow, and you should only need to do that once per session.

Ads are a bit of an arms race sadly - you get less money for these collapsing ads than I used to get for a simple little text ad 10 years ago.

As noted you can certainly get rid of them with a subscription

 

[duffield]

What are you finding unusable? Is it making the browser unresponsive, or is it that too much of the screen is being taken up by adverts, or something else? In general I'm trying to keep the effect on the maps themselves to a minimum (easily minimized small ad on the bottom of the screen, and not all the time), but putting more ads on the search page to compensate. I don't necessarily see how things look in all scenarios though, so it's difficult to get the right balance.

If you're able to screenshot (or video) places where it's problematic and send it to [email protected] I can see if I can tune things a bit


It's a bit annoying that some of the collapsing ones are quite so big - most of them start a lot smaller and only expand if you click on them. As noted they all reduce down to just the little arrow, and you should only need to do that once per session.

Ads are a bit of an arms race sadly - you get less money for these collapsing ads than I used to get for a simple little text ad 10 years ago.

As noted you can certainly get rid of them with a subscription

I've just opened the search page and it's got two copies of a small ad plus a big one, I assume that's not as intended?
It's on my Samsung A25, Android 14, using the 'installed web page' option. I've attached a screenshot below so other people can compare what they're seeing. I've emailed it as well.

Image: Screenshot of Traksy search page showing possible unintended extra adverts.

 

[WirralLine]

I've just opened the search page and it's got two copies of a small ad plus a big one, I assume that's not as intended?
It's on my Samsung A25, Android 14, using the 'installed web page' option. I've attached a screenshot below so other people can compare what they're seeing. I've emailed it as well.

Image: Screenshot of Traksy search page showing possible unintended extra adverts.

View attachment 175781

This is what I'm getting too. When you enter a location and view the map, the top advert covers the top information/schedule popup of any service you click on and cannot be hidden.

 

[takno]

I've just opened the search page and it's got two copies of a small ad plus a big one, I assume that's not as intended?
It's on my Samsung A25, Android 14, using the 'installed web page' option. I've attached a screenshot below so other people can compare what they're seeing. I've emailed it as well.

Image: Screenshot of Traksy search page showing possible unintended extra adverts.

View attachment 175781

That's as intended. Over 90% of users just select a destination and bounce straight off this page onto a map, so my thinking is that the impact of putting more advertising on here is relatively minimal, and definitely preferable to having it on a map page. I am fairly new to managing ads (aside from some experimentation 10 years or so ago), so I'm open to arguments on where the best place for them is, but at the same time I do have servers to run and a mortgage to pay.

The duplication seems to be something that advertisers are keen to bid for, so while it's a bit strange it does seem to drive revenue without covering quite so much space with adverts.

This is what I'm getting too. When you enter a location and view the map, the top advert covers the top information/schedule popup of any service you click on and cannot be hidden.

Could you send a screenshot of this to the info@ email? There shouldn't be any adverts which can't be hidden covering anything, so this sounds like a bug I'll want to fix

 

[duffield]

That's as intended. Over 90% of users just select a destination and bounce straight off this page onto a map, so my thinking is that the impact of putting more advertising on here is relatively minimal, and definitely preferable to having it on a map page. I am fairly new to managing ads (aside from some experimentation 10 years or so ago), so I'm open to arguments on where the best place for them is, but at the same time I do have servers to run and a mortgage to pay.

The duplication seems to be something that advertisers are keen to bid for, so while it's a bit strange it does seem to drive revenue without covering quite so much space with adverts.


Could you send a screenshot of this to the info@ email? There shouldn't be any adverts which can't be hidden covering anything, so this sounds like a bug I'll want to fix

Ok, fair enough on the duplication of the little ads. I didn't realise they'd pay more to have two copies of an identical ad on the same screen!

But there is a bit of a functional issue with the big ad in the middle. It means you can't get to the other search boxes at the bottom of the search screen (live timetables and train info), and the big ad doesn't have a collapse arrow, unlike the little ad at the very bottom. Scrolling down to those options doesn't seem to work.

I *can* get the big central ad to go away, but that means managing to hit the very tiny "x" (difficult, it won't zoom), then telling Google the ad is obscuring the content, and then the Google question box goes away after a few more seconds.
It's not a big deal for me, I mostly use the map option at the top, but it might be annoying for people who mostly use the bottom two options.

 

[takno]

Ok, fair enough on the duplication of the little ads. I didn't realise they'd pay more to have two copies of an identical ad on the same screen!

But there is a bit of a functional issue with the big ad in the middle. It means you can't get to the other search boxes at the bottom of the search screen (live timetables and train info), and the big ad doesn't have a collapse arrow, unlike the little ad at the very bottom. Scrolling down to those options doesn't seem to work.

I *can* get the big central ad to go away, but that means managing to hit the very tiny "x" (difficult, it won't zoom), then telling Google the ad is obscuring the content, and then the Google question box goes away after a few more seconds.
It's not a big deal for me, I mostly use the map option at the top, but it might be annoying for people who mostly use the bottom two options.

You should be able to scroll, although admittedly swiping on the ads themselves might not work, and on smaller screens you might not have the space. Do you think it would work if the "scroll down to see more search options" was changed to a link which scrolled straight down past the advert?

 

[duffield]

You should be able to scroll, although admittedly swiping on the ads themselves might not work, and on smaller screens you might not have the space. Do you think it would work if the "scroll down to see more search options" was changed to a link which scrolled straight down past the advert?

Actually, I've just tried it again and now I can scroll past the big ad, not sure what was going on last time. So I guess that's me sorted, as I'm not getting the problem WirralLine is reporting above. Thanks.

 

[sjm77]

I too would like to say thankyou to Taakno for such a splendid resource.

I've changed all these and made a bunch of other improvements to the Paisley Map. Incidentally, Innerwick is still listed as "Innerwick G.S.P." in the timing points database, so clearly somebody in Network Rail is having trouble letting go.

So this is why we still have Cornbrook junction as a timing point on the CLC route most probably. It's only a junction for Metrolink.

 

[Jimini]

I subscribed to the new beta version yesterday. Lovely stuff! Just to echo the comments above: thanks @takno !

 

[Carntyne]

Can I ask a question @takno about the Inverness map?

For Far North Line routes, there's a lot of berths not on a route - I take it that's just somehere to keep them, until you've time to work out which ones go where? It's not a complaint, just wondered as some do have trains in there.

 

[father_jack]

I subscribed to the new beta version yesterday. Lovely stuff! Just to echo the comments above: thanks @takno !

@takno If you see this, I never got the verification email, it's not in spam etc.

 

[takno]

@takno If you see this, I never got the verification email, it's not in spam etc.

Could you drop a message to the info@ address, and I can go through a process to manually verify the account.

Delivering emails is a pain sometimes, and the Microsoft-run services (hotmail, live.com, outlook.com) use really outdated techniques to classify and reject emails so that they never even make it into spam folders.

Can I ask a question @takno about the Inverness map?

For Far North Line routes, there's a lot of berths not on a route - I take it that's just somehere to keep them, until you've time to work out which ones go where? It's not a complaint, just wondered as some do have trains in there.

To be honest when the data started coming through for the Far North routes I very confidently jumped to mapping it, but after a day of reading up to understand RETB and banging my head on a brick wall I pretty much gave up. I may have another go at some point, or if somebody manages to turn up a map with the data already in there. In the meantime the data is pretty much just there in case anybody finds it useful.

 

[MadMac]

Just noticed a few minutes ago that Livingston South station name is missing. Quite why I haven’t seen it before now is another matter!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I know there's no map for Altrincham, but why does clicking the link saying Altrincham at https://traksy.uk/live/M+41+DAVNPRT+1 take you to York's Skelton Jn?

Thoroughly confused me until I realised both Skelton Jn have the same name.

 

[sad1e]

Any ideas on when the current beta version will be released to the rest of the website.

 

[takno]

Any ideas on when the current beta version will be released to the rest of the website.

Current thinking is that we won't just switch the whole website over to the beta version. We might have a simpler site with more static pages and less bells and whistles for the free version, and a bit more of an "advanced" app-style site for subscribers.

Partly this is to encourage people to keep subscribing, and partly because the way the beta site works would pay much less for adverts. Basically, if you have people click through multiple pages which have meaningful URLs and some text content, then the amount you can earn for ads is much higher. That means there's less need to cram loads of them on every page.

That said, we'll be switching everything over to being produced by the new server, since that's faster and more efficient. That should mean that everybody gets the more detailed and accurate schedule info, and will see most of the improvements to the maps. The pages also load so quickly that most users will barely notice the difference.

Various elements like the station, journey and train views are already available (and in fact are already appearing sometimes for some users). Hopefully we'll get fully switched over to those reasonably soon, possibly next month. The switch over to the new map engine may take a bit longer.

 

[Benjwri]

Current thinking is that we won't just switch the whole website over to the beta version. We might have a simpler site with more static pages and less bells and whistles for the free version, and a bit more of an "advanced" app-style site for subscribers.

Partly this is to encourage people to keep subscribing, and partly because the way the beta site works would pay much less for adverts. Basically, if you have people click through multiple pages which have meaningful URLs and some text content, then the amount you can earn for ads is much higher. That means there's less need to cram loads of them on every page.

That said, we'll be switching everything over to being produced by the new server, since that's faster and more efficient. That should mean that everybody gets the more detailed and accurate schedule info, and will see most of the improvements to the maps. The pages also load so quickly that most users will barely notice the difference.

Various elements like the station, journey and train views are already available (and in fact are already appearing sometimes for some users). Hopefully we'll get fully switched over to those reasonably soon, possibly next month. The switch over to the new map engine may take a bit longer.

The only reason I'd say this is a shame is I find the new version actually quite hard to use in the 'real world' from a connectivity point of view. The issue on iOS with it stopping updating if you leave safari/your phone turns off still persists, and to fix it it seems you have to reload the page. When you do that with the poor connection on most of the rail network the page loads, but it doesn't manage to log you back in without a far better connection.

 

[takno]

The only reason I'd say this is a shame is I find the new version actually quite hard to use in the 'real world' from a connectivity point of view. The issue on iOS with it stopping updating if you leave safari/your phone turns off still persists, and to fix it it seems you have to reload the page. When you do that with the poor connection on most of the rail network the page loads, but it doesn't manage to log you back in without a far better connection.

There are definitely some issues with login. Every time you refresh the page it has to go back and forth a couple of times to make sure you're still the same person. I was going to sort that last week but I got focused on making it switch between maps faster, and I ran out of time.

Hopefully I should be able to make it refresh as quickly as the old site.