Tram Penalty

[Jaybee111]

Looking for a point of view. I was issued with a penalty notice on the Croydon tramlink from Wimbledon to East Croydon station. It is not a typical journey for me ... I was on my way to the airport.

I tapped in at Wimbledon station and was admitted through the gates. If it matters, I usually travel from that station on the Rail service using an annual zone 1 to 3 travelcard at the cost of £1500. On the morning in question, however, it turns out that the travelcard had expired some 48 hours previously. Nevertheless I was permitted entry into Wimbledon station as I was also carrying a cash balance on the oyster card.

The basis of the penalty fare is that my ticket was "unvalidated". Apparently tapping in at the entry to Wimbledon station is not enough to validate the oyster card for the tram (even though it would be enough to travel on both the rail and the underground network that operate from that station). Instead I would have needed to tap in a second time on the tram platform. I assumed, apparently wrongly, that tapping in on entering the station was enough. The cash balance on the card was enough to cover the tram fare.

I sent a letter of appeal, and it was rejected. I intended to appeal to again. To be honest I feel pretty aggrieved that failure to tap a second time as landed me with a £40 penalty. Anyone else had experience of this? Any thoughts about strategy for getting the penalty charge reversed? Thank you

 

[furlong]

You will need to return to the station - perhaps at a similar time on a similar day so any crowding is similar - retrace your exact steps, and reconsider whether there was some prominent notice that you would have been expected to see, but ignored. If the notices are present and clear and you ignored them, there isn't much you can do - you are expected to read them and follow their instructions. You are expected to have known that you were travelling using PAYG, not the season ticket. If however the notices are not as they need to be to instruct you to touch a second time, then provide such evidence to support your appeal. An expensive way of learning how important it is to keep track of when your season ticket expires, I fear.

 

[Jaybee111]

Thanks. Yes I should have kept a better track of that. However, I would note for anyone else following the thread that the rejection letter suggests (but does not explicitly say) that even if I had been travelling on the season ticket I would still have been subject to the penalty fare for not tapping in the second time. It says "When starting a tram journey at Wimbledon you must touch your Oyster card again on the yellow on platform 10. If you do not, you will pay a maximum Oyster fare, even if you have a valid Bus and Tram pass or Travelcard season ticket".

The only sign I have seen so far (I will have another look today) is under the second card reader itself on the platform. When the station is busy (for example because there are a number of alighting passengers from the tram gathering around the reader to tap on it) it would be easy to miss. I plan to make the point in my second appeal. Indeed I plan to appeal as many times as possible - they are going to have to put in some work to get this £40!

 

[PeterC]

Of course you will have also been charged for an uncompleted rail journey.

 

[Any_Permitted]

Indeed I plan to appeal as many times as possible - they are going to have to put in some work to get this £40!

Have you paid the penalty fare yet? It says on the TFL website:
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/penalties-and-enforcement

The penalty fare is £80 - reduced to £40 if you pay within 21 days. If you don't pay the penalty fare (or successfully appeal) within 21 days, we will take further action.

I'm not sure if the Railway Byelaws apply to trams (someone more knowledgeable than me can clarify this). If they do, you have fallen foul of Byelaw 18 by not having a validated Oyster card. It's harsh, but it means that TFL could take you to court and would be highly likely to win as this is a strict-liability offence. EDIT: They do not apply, thanks Mojo for the clarification. TFL could still take you to court under the Tramlink Byelaws.

I'm not sure if appealing stops the clock on the 21 days you have to pay the penalty fare, but the quote above suggests it might not. I highly recommend you do the following:

1. Pay the penalty fare so that the threat of court action goes away.
2. Write to appeals department / customer services with your appeal and complaint about it not being clear you had to tap in twice. I would have made exactly the same mistake as you. Hopefully they will refund the £40.

 

[Mojo]

I'm not sure if the Railway Byelaws apply to trams (someone more knowledgeable than me can clarify this).

Tramlink have their own byelaws separate from the TfL Railway Byelaws and the National Rail Byelaws.

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/tramlink-byelaws.pdf

It's harsh, but it means that TFL could take you to court and would be highly likely to win as this is a strict-liability offence.

Revenue protection on the Tram system is carried out by the system operators, [First] Tram Operations Limited. The first stage appeal would have been sent to Tram Operations Limited (ie. the company who actually issued the Penalty fare), however a second stage appeal would go direct to TfL. I would therefore suggest that the original poster submits their second stage appeal, which goes to TfL, stating that they have been charged the Maximum rail fare by touching in at Wimbledon (enclosing a copy of the Oyster journey history or online printout would be beneficial); and that they believe that the signage was unclear stating what to do at Wimbledon (or whatever the grounds for appeal are), but that they had touched in. I would be happy to proofread a letter.

Strictly speaking the Penalty fare was correctly issued, however TfL might see things differently given they did touch in (assuming the journey history shows this correctly, and that the fare charged for touching in at Wimbledon rail station is shown).

 

[Clip]

You will need to return to the station - perhaps at a similar time on a similar day so any crowding is similar - retrace your exact steps, and reconsider whether there was some prominent notice that you would have been expected to see, but ignored. If the notices are present and clear and you ignored them, there isn't much you can do - you are expected to read them and follow their instructions. You are expected to have known that you were travelling using PAYG, not the season ticket. If however the notices are not as they need to be to instruct you to touch a second time, then provide such evidence to support your appeal. An expensive way of learning how important it is to keep track of when your season ticket expires, I fear.

I can confirm that Wimbledon and every tram stop has posters regarding what to do if travelling to wimbledon

 

[Mag_seven]

The complications re Tram usage using Oyster at Wimbledon at covered here : (relevant text in bold)

https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/trams-and-buses/

"Using the tram at Wimbledon
The tramstop at Wimbledon is actually within the National Rail/District Line station. This means that special care needs to be taken when using trams to/from Wimbledon. If you are travelling to Wimbledon then you must ensure that you have touched in before boarding the tram. When you leave the station the ticket gates need to see either a tram touch-in or a normal rail/tube touch in. If one is not present then a maximum fare will be deducted. You must exit via an automatic gate and not use the manual gate at the side because the reader alongside that can’t tell whether you are going in or out, and will assume in in this situation. If you are travelling from Wimbledon then you need to touch-in at the gateline to get into the station. This will deduct a maximum fare in the usual way. Just before boarding the tram you should touch in again at the tram reader on platform 10 next to the tram stop. This will adjust the maximum fare so that you are charged the tram single fare.

You need to follow these procedures even if you have a travelcard stored on your Oystercard that is valid for use on trams (at least one of zones 3, 4, 5 or 6). In theory you will probably be alright if your travelcard covers zone 3, but otherwise there will be a problem."

And this is signposted (relevant text in bold):

https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/wimbledon/

"Oyster Readers at Wimbledon
Wimbledon OysterFirst though, a brief explanation of the different readers. There are standard entry and exit readers on the gatelines at each end of the overbridge. Then there are three ‘tram boarding’ readers on platforms 10a/b next to where the trams stop. These can be identified by the large green label on the front explaining that you need to touch in before boarding the tram. There are also three standard entry/exit validators facing platform 9. The side of the validators facing the footbridge on platforms 9 and 10a now have extra signage making it clearer which is used for each mode of transport. In the mini-concourse at the end of platforms 1-4 there are two pink route validators and at the beginning of each of platforms 1-4 are more entry/exit validators. Click on the image to see a plan of the station with the locations of the various types of reader."

 

[Antman]

I travel to and from Wimbledon regularly so I know this but it's quite understandable that many people don't, in fact they don't do themselves any favours as they end up being charged extra.

Clearly a bit of common sense should have been applied here and I must say that in my experience tramlink revenue staff are generally reasonable and will give the passenger the benefit of any doubt, quite why that didn't happen here I don't know.

I would say you've been very badly treated and I would appeal against it.

 

[jon0844]

The complications re Tram usage using Oyster at Wimbledon at covered here : (relevant text in bold)

https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/trams-and-buses/

"Using the tram at Wimbledon
The tramstop at Wimbledon is actually within the National Rail/District Line station. This means that special care needs to be taken when using trams to/from Wimbledon. If you are travelling to Wimbledon then you must ensure that you have touched in before boarding the tram. When you leave the station the ticket gates need to see either a tram touch-in or a normal rail/tube touch in. If one is not present then a maximum fare will be deducted. You must exit via an automatic gate and not use the manual gate at the side because the reader alongside that can’t tell whether you are going in or out, and will assume in in this situation. If you are travelling from Wimbledon then you need to touch-in at the gateline to get into the station. This will deduct a maximum fare in the usual way. Just before boarding the tram you should touch in again at the tram reader on platform 10 next to the tram stop. This will adjust the maximum fare so that you are charged the tram single fare.

You need to follow these procedures even if you have a travelcard stored on your Oystercard that is valid for use on trams (at least one of zones 3, 4, 5 or 6). In theory you will probably be alright if your travelcard covers zone 3, but otherwise there will be a problem."

And this is signposted (relevant text in bold):

https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/wimbledon/

"Oyster Readers at Wimbledon
Wimbledon OysterFirst though, a brief explanation of the different readers. There are standard entry and exit readers on the gatelines at each end of the overbridge. Then there are three ‘tram boarding’ readers on platforms 10a/b next to where the trams stop. These can be identified by the large green label on the front explaining that you need to touch in before boarding the tram. There are also three standard entry/exit validators facing platform 9. The side of the validators facing the footbridge on platforms 9 and 10a now have extra signage making it clearer which is used for each mode of transport. In the mini-concourse at the end of platforms 1-4 there are two pink route validators and at the beginning of each of platforms 1-4 are more entry/exit validators. Click on the image to see a plan of the station with the locations of the various types of reader."

Wow, what a confusing mess. Frankly, if this is such an issue then I'm surprised they don't show leniency when a passenger is already worse off, without being penalised further. I realise there's the issue of how the revenue is divvied up, but that's not the concern of the passenger.

 

[matt_world2004]

I think the seperate touch in for the tramlink is so that the tram customers do not get charged a max fare for touching in and using the tram. However it is confusing and I think it would be better if they had a seperate gateline for tramlink customers even if it means they had to walk through two gatelines to get to the tram. Therefore the only way you could avoid paying the fare is by crossing through the gates inproperly.

 

[sheff1]

The complications re Tram usage using Oyster at Wimbledon at covered here ...

Amazing ! If it is this complicated for a straightforward journey within Greater London, imagine the chaos if/when national 'smart' ticketing is introduced.

What is the thinking behind having to touch-in twice ? Surely counter-intuitive when normal behaviour is to touch in at the start and out at the end of a journey.

 

[furlong]

Unfortunately, even TfL's own instructions are not as clear as they should be. Further down the page, it states in a different context without reiterating the various qualifications:

Unless you need to change stations, you don't need to touch your Oyster card on any other yellow card readers during your journey. If you do, you may be charged for two separate journeys.

IMHO The bottom line is that only with clear signage that leaves no room for excuses could an unintuitive and unexpected technical requirement be enforced.

 

[cjohnson]

What is the thinking behind having to touch-in twice ? Surely counter-intuitive when normal behaviour is to touch in at the start and out at the end of a journey.

The thinking is that Oyster/contactless on trams is the same as buses i.e. you just touch in on entry. Only difference is that the readers are standalone on platforms rather than on the vehicle itself. If the barriers were open you would just pass through and just touch in once on platform 10.

The "touch-in twice" issue arises because you need to access the station itself via the gatelines. The second touch-in on the platform 10 validator cancels the max fare deduction at Wimbledon gateline and instead charges the flat tram fare.

However, I do agree that surely some more common sense should be shown - e.g. if someone gets their Oyster checked at Phipps Bridge, and it shows a touch-in at Wimbledon gateline 15 minutes previously, surely they are not trying to dodge their fare!

 

[Busaholic]

Will 'the Wimbledon problem' ever get sorted? I suspect not, because it provides a lot of excess revenue both in the form of penalty fares and in charging the maximum day rate on Oyster for an uncompleted journey. When TfL used to issue booklets on everything to do with fares on all of their services, there was always a special section on Wimbledon Station and Tramlink. I've been caught out here too, because if you rush down the stairs to jump on a tram that's about to depart you might well forget, particularly if, like me, you only visit the area once every few years. I've also got caught out jumping on a tram in Croydon forgetting that you couldn't tap in onboard: I was so worried, I got off at the next stop and tapped in there, luckily being able to get back on the same tram.

 

[furlong]

Well the only mechanism I can see for charging a penalty fare here is one based on ignoring clear unambiguous signage.

The paper trail doesn't seem to be sufficient on its own as the Oyster conditions merely state:

6.8.6
Paying as you go on buses and trams
...
When you use the trams, you must touch your Oyster card or contactless payment card on the yellow card reader before you board.

You could argue that you met this condition before you boarded - the gateline card reader was yellow - and therefore your ticket was, contrary to the their assertion, validated for the journey. It doesn't say that if there is more than one yellow card reader then you are required to touch some complicated and precisely-defined combination of them!

 

[furlong]

Further, validate is defined as:

Touch an Oyster card, smartcard or a contactless payment card on a
yellow card reader at the start of a bus or tram journey.

which perhaps directly contradicts their response.

 

[Antman]

I'd go as far as to say that the RPI who issued the penalty fare should be subject to sanctions, disciplinary etc.

Clearly the OP wasn't intending to avoid payment as what he did would cost him more, ie being charged for an incomplete journey.

There really does need to be a separate Tramlink entrance and exit at Wimbledon although as Thameslink services leave from the adjacent platform it's difficult to see how that could be implemented. It would also mean passengers changing between tramlink and heavy rail and vice versa would have to leave the station and re-enter.

 

[furlong]

If you touched your Oyster card on a yellow card reader at the start of the journey, then, based on their own definition, they cannot validly claim it was 'unvalidated', and if those were the sole grounds for the penalty fare, and subject to any signage, then an appeal should be upheld IMHO.

 

[furlong]

The reasoning is: you touched it on a yellow reader at the start of your tram journey - this, by definition (TfL Oyster terms/conditions of use), constitutes validation - as a matter of fact - any claim that it was 'unvalidated' is therefore false, so the penalty fare was incorrectly issued.

 

[swt_passenger]

Will 'the Wimbledon problem' ever get sorted? I suspect not...

It will be solved if/when Crossrail 2 is built, because they've said the trams will be moved outside to make room for the additional platforms.
Even if not built, the alternative plan of SWML 5 tracking requires the present tram platforms to be returned to Thameslink use.

 

[furlong]

Now the tram conditions of travel also state:

If you are starting a tram journey at Wimbledon, you must touch your Oyster or contactless payment card on one of the Trams yellow card readers on platform 10. This applies if you have entered the station via the gateline or if you have arrived by National Rail or Underground services. If you do not, you may be charged a maximum fare and you may be liable to a penalty fare.

but not doing so would not leave your ticket "unvalidated" under their own definition. (There might be other grounds for a penalty fare, but not that one.)

 

[PeterC]

Presumably the scanner that the RPI used only detected a valid Tramlink touch in but not the uncompleted journey from Wimbledon.

 

[paddington]

Clearly a bit of common sense should have been applied here and I must say that in my experience tramlink revenue staff are generally reasonable and will give the passenger the benefit of any doubt, quite why that didn't happen here I don't know.

I completely disagree that the tram RPIs are "generally reasonable" and will give people the benefit of the doubt.

Recently and during this summer, based on my tram travels, the tram network appears to have had greatly increased RPI activity compared to previous years. Furthermore, revenue checks are occurring at more awkward times such as 0600 and 2230, sometimes with police presence, which appears to be resulting in more fare evaders being caught.

Given that it is very easy to not pay on the tram, I don't blame the RPIs for being heavy-handed.

On the topic of this thread, I have observed the same RPI, on two separate occasions, removing a passenger from the tram to take their details on the basis of "not having a valid ticket", despite the passengers having touched in at Wimbledon with plenty of PAYG credit.

I do agree that having paid the maximum rail fare, there is no need to further penalise a passenger who doesn't touch the tram reader at Wimbledon.

I notice that the gates at the east side of Wimbledon station are usually open for surprisingly long periods of the day, even at 1800 on weekdays. When they are open and I am taking the tram, I just leave the station without touching out at the gates, and don't touch in at the gates but only at the tram validator. (Yes I know there is a risk of meeting an RPI between the gates and the tram validator.)

 

[Antman]

I completely disagree that the tram RPIs are "generally reasonable" and will give people the benefit of the doubt.

Recently and during this summer, based on my tram travels, the tram network appears to have had greatly increased RPI activity compared to previous years. Furthermore, revenue checks are occurring at more awkward times such as 0600 and 2230, sometimes with police presence, which appears to be resulting in more fare evaders being caught.

Given that it is very easy to not pay on the tram, I don't blame the RPIs for being heavy-handed.

On the topic of this thread, I have observed the same RPI, on two separate occasions, removing a passenger from the tram to take their details on the basis of "not having a valid ticket", despite the passengers having touched in at Wimbledon with plenty of PAYG credit.

I do agree that having paid the maximum rail fare, there is no need to further penalise a passenger who doesn't touch the tram reader at Wimbledon.

I notice that the gates at the east side of Wimbledon station are usually open for surprisingly long periods of the day, even at 1800 on weekdays. When they are open and I am taking the tram, I just leave the station without touching out at the gates, and don't touch in at the gates but only at the tram validator. (Yes I know there is a risk of meeting an RPI between the gates and the tram validator.)

So you think tramlink RPIs are unreasonable? I only see them occasionally and they've generally been reasonable although maybe they feel a bit more confident with police back up?

I've seen both sets of gates at Wimbledon left open at various times of day and obviously there is no point touching in or out there if you are using tramlink, you and I know that but many passengers won't.

I really do feel that any RPI issuing a penalty fare to somebody who has made an innocent mistake at Wimbledon, and one that will leave the passenger out of pocket anyway, should be subjected to disciplinary action and possibly removed from revenue duties, I know tramlink RPIs drive trams as well. To issue a PF in such circumstances surely is a blatant abuse of the PF system? I think it also again emphasis's the need for an independent ombudsman who would surely quash any PFs given in such circumstances without hesitation.

Another thing about tramlink, the TVMs don't take the new £1 coin, apparently it's not cost effective to update them as so few people use them now. So if a cash paying passenger only has the new pound coins to pay with then what do they do?

 

[Busaholic]

It will be solved if/when Crossrail 2 is built

I might make a special visit on the occasion of my 100th birthday, then, in the unlikely event of my being spared!

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks. Yes I should have kept a better track of that. However, I would note for anyone else following the thread that the rejection letter suggests (but does not explicitly say) that even if I had been travelling on the season ticket I would still have been subject to the penalty fare for not tapping in the second time. It says "When starting a tram journey at Wimbledon you must touch your Oyster card again on the yellow on platform 10. If you do not, you will pay a maximum Oyster fare, even if you have a valid Bus and Tram pass or Travelcard season ticket".

If you have a valid season ticket you would not be liable for a penalty fare, but you will still be charged a maximum Oyster fare unless your travelcard covers zone 3.

The only sign I have seen so far (I will have another look today) is under the second card reader itself on the platform. When the station is busy (for example because there are a number of alighting passengers from the tram gathering around the reader to tap on it) it would be easy to miss. I plan to make the point in my second appeal. Indeed I plan to appeal as many times as possible - they are going to have to put in some work to get this £40!

Tram passengers do not need to touch out using the tram validators so there shouldn't be a gathering for that reason. You may try to appeal many times but the company will take you to court.

I think the seperate touch in for the tramlink is so that the tram customers do not get charged a max fare for touching in and using the tram. However it is confusing and I think it would be better if they had a seperate gateline for tramlink customers even if it means they had to walk through two gatelines to get to the tram. Therefore the only way you could avoid paying the fare is by crossing through the gates inproperly.

That would cause more problems than it would solve, particularly if either gateline was open due to lack of staff.

Presumably the scanner that the RPI used only detected a valid Tramlink touch in but not the uncompleted journey from Wimbledon.

There wasn't a valid tram touch in, that was the whole problem.

When they are open and I am taking the tram, I just leave the station without touching out at the gates, and don't touch in at the gates but only at the tram validator. (Yes I know there is a risk of meeting an RPI between the gates and the tram validator.)

I don't think Wimbledon station is a CTA so RPIs would have no case in that scenario.

 

[cjohnson]

I don't think Wimbledon station is a CTA so RPIs would have no case in that scenario.

There are signs on platform 10 at Wimbledon stating it is a CTA, and TfL's Trams Conditions of Travel state that at Wimbledon, the CTA is "platforms 9 and 10 and includes the fixed stairway rising from platform level on platforms 9 and 10 to the pedestrian overbridge spanning platforms 4 to 10".

 

[cjohnson]

Passing through Wimbledon this evening, this is what I could see...

Two identical posters on both sides at the top of the stairs descending to the platforms 9/10 stating that if using the tram, you should always touch in on the reader on the tram platform:


On the bottom of platform 10, an Oyster/contactless reader (highlighted that this is only should be for Trams,not NR) stating you should touch in here, "even if you have touched in previously at this station". I think there are 3 such readers alongside 10a/10b at Wimbledon.


A poster that you would walk past after the first two Oyster/contactless readers, but before you can reach the tram itself; stating that you need to touch in again even if you have already touched in at the Wimbledon gateline.


I also noted a sign saying that SWR now plan to keep Wimbledon gated between 6am-midnight...!

 

[Mojo]

There are signs on platform 10 at Wimbledon stating it is a CTA, and TfL's Trams Conditions of Travel state that at Wimbledon, the CTA is "platforms 9 and 10 and includes the fixed stairway rising from platform level on platforms 9 and 10 to the pedestrian overbridge spanning platforms 4 to 10".

However a Compulsory Ticket area is only applicable for customers alighting from a Tram. A Penalty fare or prosecution cannot be applied if the person has not alighted from a Tram. It is not applied in the sense of TfL Railways (Overground, TfL Rail, DLR and LU) or National Rail whereby your mere presence in the area whether you have travelled or not makes you eligible for a Penalty fare (or prosecution in the case of TfL).