Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
So trams to Marple keep being suggested - other than an Ormskirk or Kirkby-style end-on DMU shuttle how might service to Strines and Chinley be maintained?
I think the solution would be Tram Trains and shared use of the Romiley - Marple Wharf Jn section double track. A tram train every 12 minutes gives a theoretical path for something else in between each tram train. The Tram Trains could then have pretty much exclusive use of the route via Brinnington, with frieght/passenger heavy rail services via Hyde (or vice-versa) The only challenge would be that Romiley Jn and Marple Wharf Jn are only 3 minutes running time apart...so T-Ts every 12 minutes could not parallel move at both junctions, so scheduling of the section would be a little tricky.
I think the solution would be Tram Trains and shared use of the Romiley - Marple Wharf Jn section double track.
A tram train every 12 minutes gives a theoretical path for something else in between each tram train. The Tram Trains could then have pretty much exclusive use of the route via Brinnington, with frieght/passenger heavy rail services via Hyde (or vice-versa)
The only challenge would be that Romiley Jn and Marple Wharf Jn are only 3 minutes running time apart...so T-Ts every 12 minutes could not parallel move at both junctions, so scheduling of the section would be a little tricky.
If Marple Wharf Junction to Rose Hill switched to tram only then the junction could be grade separated (using Metrolink gradients) to stop tram trains heading to Rose Hill blocking the line. TfGM has proposed 10tph to Marple which would be very hard to timetable around heavy rail.
I suggested in another thread sending the stopper via Stockport and maintaining 2 per hour at New Mills Central by pathing a Piccadilly- Marple- Strines- New Mills service around the trams like happens on the Sunderland line if that is practical
Not going to be many extra paths through Stockport, so probably got to accept them being an extension of something else. Or continue to run via Marple and try to squeeze it in between the tram-trains?
The Rose Hill stub-end terminus was created following closure of the rest of the Macclesfield, Bollington and Marple Railway (MB&MR), which was opened jointly by the Manchester, Sheffield and Lincolnshire Railway (MS&LR) and the North Staffordshire Railway (NSR) in 1869, and closed in January 1970. The link from Marple to Stockport was the ex-Midland route via Tiviot Dale, which has long since been obliterated by the M60 motorway.The Rose Hill line, being a diesel stub, would make sense to be converted... particularly as the route previously ran through to Stockport and possibly could do so again as a tram line.
While we're almost heading OT, I'd suggest it as something sensible to do with the other end of a service from Liverpool via the CLC using Class 195s rather than send it to a certain airfield.
I figured the original alignment was probably mostly lost, but wasn't sure exactly where it ran anyway. However one advantage of tramways compared to heavy rail is the ability to negotiate tighter curves, to share road alignments, and to tackle steeper gradients. With the right will a suitable route could probably be found into Stockport town centre. Is Metrolink to Stockport still on TfGM's wishlist?The Rose Hill stub-end terminus was created following closure of the rest of the Macclesfield, Bollington and Marple Railway (MB&MR), which was opened jointly by the Manchester, Sheffield and Lincolnshire Railway (MS&LR) and the North Staffordshire Railway (NSR) in 1869, and closed in January 1970. The link from Marple to Stockport was the ex-Midland route via Tiviot Dale, which has long since been obliterated by the M60 motorway.
I don't know, but I do wonder if the 192 bus could be replaced by a tram. I don't imagine putting tram rails branching off from St Peter's Square onto the Oxford Road Bus Corridor would be too difficult, as it's a largely straight wide road which realistically could cope with only one lane of traffic now that it's just buses, especially with the 192s gone. I don't know if the rest of the route (on the A6) is tram able in any way.I figured the original alignment was probably mostly lost, but wasn't sure exactly where it ran anyway. However one advantage of tramways compared to heavy rail is the ability to negotiate tighter curves, to share road alignments, and to tackle steeper gradients. With the right will a suitable route could probably be found into Stockport town centre. Is Metrolink to Stockport still on TfGM's wishlist?
I don't know, but I do wonder if the 192 bus could be replaced by a tram. I don't imagine putting tram rails branching off from St Peter's Square onto the Oxford Road Bus Corridor would be too difficult, as it's a largely straight wide road which realistically could cope with only one lane of traffic now that it's just buses, especially with the 192s gone. I don't know if the rest of the route (on the A6) is tram able in any way.
Insofar as TfGM's plans can be discerned from the published documents, the first phase would be tram-trains from Piccadilly to Rose Hill, with the Belle Vue line converted to light rail. The Hyde branch would remain heavy rail, with the New Mills and Hope Valley services diverted that way. Romiley Junction to Marple Wharf Junction would be shared double track. I believe parallel single lines have been ruled out because of the performance risk (it would be twice the length of the Navigation Road single line).
This would be dependent on successful implementation of the three proposed tram-train pilot projects - Altrincham to Hale, Manchester Airport to Wilmslow and Rochdale to Heywood.
Longer term TfGM also envisions tram-trains to Marple via Hyde, in conjunction with light rail conversion of the Glossop/Hadfield line. But this would be dependent on a city centre metro tunnel to provide increased cross-city capacity. The vehicles might be light rail metro, longer than tram-trains with no street running capability. TfGM has no plans to extend tram-train/metro services to New Mills or Chinley.
We should bear in mind that there is substantial freight traffic on the Hyde branch. Through trains between Guide Bridge and Chinley, but also services to/from the Bredbury freight branch at Woodley (stub of the former CLC line to Tiviot Dale). This serves both Bredbury Tilcon and the Bredbury Refuse Treatment sidings.
Unless it's replacing something else you need an extra path to Stockport though, which doesn't exist.
I would guess that if the stopper ran via Stockport it'd probably also need a passing loop (or better but not going to happen a substantial length of 3/4 tracks) somewhere to be overtaken.
You do realise that Manchester-Stockport-Hazel Grove (now bus 192) was Manchester's last first generation tram route (35); much of the track within Stockport was extensively relaid as late as 1944. However, it was all street-running and there is no practical possibility of segregated light rail anywhere on the A6 corridor to justify converting it back to a tramway.
It's a pity that the lay of the land prevents Stockport station being anywhere near the town, really. There is a railway line following that bus route, yet most people use the bus. As for Metrolink to Stockport it won't use the 192 route but is a proposed extension from East Didsbury.
Note also that anything going into the Bredbury terminals from the south has to run round on the main line, blocking it for nearly 30min. This fits in between the current service but would cause problems for a high-frequency tram-train on that route. It's possible to arrive/depart northwards and loop round via Stockport but that route has capacity issues of its own.We should bear in mind that there is substantial freight traffic on the Hyde branch. Through trains between Guide Bridge and Chinley, but also services to/from the Bredbury freight branch at Woodley (stub of the former CLC line to Tiviot Dale). This serves both Bredbury Tilcon and the Bredbury Refuse Treatment sidings.
Surely it would be cheaper just to buy locotrol gear for the handful of freight formations and operate those trains push pull?Note also that anything going into the Bredbury terminals from the south has to run round on the main line, blocking it for nearly 30min. This fits in between the current service but would cause problems for a high-frequency tram-train on that route. It's possible to arrive/depart northwards and loop round via Stockport but that route has capacity issues of its own.
Yes, some previous tram-train studies have proposed an orbital route from Stockport to Ashton via the Denton line, with a new curve from Reddish South to Reddish North to link with the Marple tram-train.As for Metrolink to Stockport it won't use the 192 route but is a proposed extension from East Didsbury.
Even so, they are still freight trains and thay and others passing through come from the quarries which will be at odds with suggestions that the line from NMSJ be tram only.Surely it would be cheaper just to buy locotrol gear for the handful of freight formations and operate those trains push pull?