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Tramlink touching in

Discussion in 'Other Public Transport' started by Bletchleyite, 10 Jan 2019.

  1. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    The other Tramlink thread raised a bit of a question in my mind, as the TfL website doesn't seem clear on it - do you have to touch in before you board each tram, or just at the start of the journey as I think you used to?
     
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  3. Lockwood

    Lockwood Member

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    I asked a revenue inspector person on board a tram a while back when I needed to change at Croydon - I was going from the Wimbledon section to somewhere else I can't remember.
    I was told I had to tap in again.

    This was a while back though, before hopper fares
     
  4. LeeLivery

    LeeLivery Member

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    I've only ever touched in at the start of my journey, never to change trams. It never crossed my mind to pay for each tram. Really the readers should be on the trams themselves like Barcelona if they want money for every tram. But said above, Hopper fares have now been introduced so it shouldn't ever be an issue.
     
  5. LeeLivery

    LeeLivery Member

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    I've never seen that, normally they're just grateful people actually touch in
     
  6. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Given that a tram is like a bus in TfL terms, I'm surprised the readers *aren't* on board.
     
  7. Hophead

    Hophead Member

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    When Tramlink started, cash fares were the order of the day (and the machines have only recently been retired). Given that, off-tram ticketing was the obvious option.

    Now that cash is no longer taken, installing readers on the vehicles seems a possibility.
     
  8. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    It's like a bus in TfL terms when it suits TfL and unlike it when it also suits! For instance, as a non-London resident of pensionable age, my bus pass is available on all buses, even school routes, but not on Tramlink, which always annoys me as there used to be a perfectly good bus route I used which was withdrawn in Tramlink's favour.
     
  9. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    Generally on a London bus there is one reader next to the driver who can ensure everybody taps in. On-board readers on a tram mean people could just board, stand near a reader and tap in if they see an inspector approaching.
     
  10. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    On the Borismasters there is one by each set of doors.

    Those dastardly Europeans (and the Bozza buses) thought of that; they turn them off when an inspector boards.
     
  11. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    Wasn't the original Boris idea that the "conductor" was there to supervise this validator and the entrance (and do nothing else)? One of the main reasons given to get rid of the bendies was the number of people boarding at middle doors and not validating.

    So people can claim they just got on and tried to validate but someone had switched it off.
     
  12. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    No, the conductors had nothing to do with revenue, their sole purpose was to supervise the open platform.

    There was also a centre door validator. The boarding system is basically identical to the bendies...make of that what you will!
     
  13. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

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    I remember the posters on tram stops a few years back specifically say that touching in was necessary before boarding every tram.
     
  14. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    Since the changes to the routeings of trams about a year ago, and possibly for a time before that, TfL have stated that on any given journey you now only need to touch in on the first tram you use. If you change at Centrale, for instance, from a tram originating at Wimbledon to a tram bound for New Addington you don't need to touch in again. This is in the information provided by TfL surrounding the changes; after all, previously trams ran direct from Wimbledon to New Addington. I suspect TfL deliberately keep this information otherwise secret, knowing that if people touch in again they'll be charged again, subject to daily caps of course.
     
  15. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    But surely with the tram being treated as a bus for fares purposes and subject to the Hopper fare, the only people this affects are those making a bus-tram-tram journey where the second tram is boarded more than an hour after the bus?
     
  16. Mag_seven

    Mag_seven Established Member

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    The TfL page on cashless trams states the following:

    It then goes on to state:

    That implies to me you have to touch the reader on the tram platform on every occasion that you board, otherwise how would the "hopper" rule be applied?
     
  17. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Also don’t forget that it is only about 18 months ago that customers could collect online orders or refunds from readers on “mobile” validators (ie. those on buses) rather than those on stations; which included Tramstops. Having the readers on Tram platforms therefore made sense in the context of giving customers easier access to collect their online orders especially when you consider that Tram ticket machines didn’t offer Oyster services.
     
  18. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    It's a mess, putting it politely. It would be very interesting if it ever came to a prosecution of anyone for changing trams and not touching in, if that person could produce in court some of the conflicting information produced by TfL over the years. I suspect TfL are well aware of the opacity and it would never come to a case. Don't forget Hopper fare is very recent: the whole question has been rumbling like a dormant volcano for years! It's not helped by nobody at TfL wanting ownership of Tramlink since Peter Hendy's days, and Mayors only paying lip service to it at election time or when producing sham consultations. The Sandilands 'accident' won't have changed any of this attitude for the better, that's for sure.
     
  19. rebmcr

    rebmcr Established Member

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    The way I would go about this issue is by switching the system from the Bus fares model to the DLR fares model.

    Buses can't have the 'red zone' like barrier-less DLR stations do, but tram platforms are well-suited to it. That would not only facilitate multi-tram journeys, but also interchange at stations like Wimbledon for onwards Tube/rail services.

    It would also make it vastly easier to draw the zonal map!
     
  20. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    I don't think that would work at some tramstops where the platform is effectively part of the footway so people on the platform could just be passing by with no intention of using a tram.

    https://goo.gl/maps/a66Dmfr7ddn
     
  21. rebmcr

    rebmcr Established Member

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    Agreed, but in a system where the different paving is still legally behind the red line, RPIs could simply use a sensible policy to not strictly enforce the zone at such locations.
     
  22. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    Centrale was, of course, a late addition to the stops, but one or two stops on (West Croydon and Wellesley Road) are not only better used by passengers but have far more passing pedestrian traffic.

    One further factor on tram Hopper fares that hasn't been mentioned - with buses your notional hour commences on boarding your first bus and touching in. If you get to a tram stop and immediately touch in it might be a few minutes before a tram (or your tram, where there's a choice of routes) appears, so you mightn't get that hour. If TfL want to pretend the tram is a bus for fare purposes, then the readers have to go onboard, pronto.
     
  23. londonbridge

    londonbridge Member

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    I never thought of that, one way round that would be to just wait on the platform and touch in as the tram approaches.
     
  24. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Agreed, though I do think they should move them on board and, as for open boarding buses, turn them off when the inspectors board.
     
  25. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    OK in theory, but if large numbers were trying to do it simultaneously... the trams no longer have route numbers, so you might need it to get fairly near before establishing it was the one you want. To me, abolishing route numbers was also an indication that Tramlink was being treated as a network: pay a fare, and just use as many trams as you need to get to a destination. TfL also made clear with the last changes that they'll vary the destination of trams while they're en route if they deem it necessary, so a tram from New Addington may start off bound for Wimbledon and end up at West Croydon, while one from Beckenham may get extended to Wimbledon, which isn't something that would happen on any of their bus routes!
     
  26. button_boxer

    button_boxer Established Member

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    Though there’s a bootstrapping problem there if you board at the same stop as an inspector and then can’t touch in as the machines have been turned off. Buses they can turn off the “remote” validators but keep the one next to the driver active and funnel boarding passengers through the front set of doors, but on a tram they’re all remote.
     
  27. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I suppose it works better with the European approach of plain clothes inspectors, they can board, take seats as normal, give 30 seconds for people to touch in then turn them off and start inspecting.
     
  28. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    I came across a plain clothes inspector on a TfL bus not so long back. Virtually empty bus, a New Routemaster as it happened, which I had to hurry to board at the back entrance, and then went straight to sit down (downstairs.) The inspector made allowance for my age, I expect, and left it about 30 seconds before he approached me and proffered his I.D. I then reached for my wallet and produced my oldies' bus pass, which is not capable of being 'read' by TfL's current generation of readers as it's not a London issue. He thanked me politely and returned to his seat at the very back.
     
  29. Jack15001

    Jack15001 Member

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    Trams do not generally change destination mid journey, only likely to happen in the event of a line being blocked.

    If for example you travel from New Addington to Wimbledon you don't need to touch in again when you change trams.
     
    Last edited: 14 Jan 2019

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