Trams proposed for Isle of Wight

[urpert]

You've got to be joking - the roads into and out of Ventnor are *very* steep. (Happy memories of travelling on Bristol VRs and Olympians labouring their way on those roads).

The railway line used to come in from the north of Ventnor (via Wroxall) rather than a direct 'as the crow' flies' route.

Any route following the coastline would be a nightmare.

Indeed - and I believe the trackbed in the tunnel now carries some sort of utilities, which is also thought to be a very costly obstacle to any reopening.

 

[Chris125]

Indeed - and I believe the trackbed in the tunnel now carries some sort of utilities, which is also thought to be a very costly obstacle to any reopening.

I can't recall it being cited as a fundamental problem, though it is likely to add to the cost.

Incidentally I've just come across Jacob's 2001 study conducted for the local council, which looked into reopenings to Ventnor and Newport/Cowes.

http://old-iwight.onthewight.com/li.../Transport_Strategies/images/IWCRailStudy.pdf

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The whole site of the old Ventnor station is now an industrial estate and iic the local water board has got pipes running through the tunnel. If I'm looking at the right place on Google Earth it looks like some of the track bed from the North end of the tunnel (can't make out exactly where the northern end is) has been built on.

If they ever were to do an extension of the Island Line then it could be from Ryde-Cowes-Newport-Yarmouth. When i was on holiday on the IoW a couple of years ago, the area of Newport where the cinema is has really, really bad traffic

 

[cjmillsnun]

It was third rail only until it passed to LU. LU added the fourth rail as they were using a variant of the Central Line stock. The old drain stock was ancient, it was even marked "Southern Railway"

Sorry that's wrong. Yes the old stock (the class 487) was third rail, however the Class 482 stock (as the 1992 stock was originally named on the Waterloo & City Line) was introduced by Network SouthEast (hence they were originally in toothpaste), and BR were the ones who converted it to fourth rail. The W&C line was passed to LUL when Railtrack assumed ownership and responsibility for all other BR infrastructure.

It's a shame the '92 stock aren't coming up soon, as they would be suitable, although the '72 stock would probably be more reliable.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If they ever were to do an extension of the Island Line then it could be from Ryde-Cowes-Newport-Yarmouth. When i was on holiday on the IoW a couple of years ago, the area of Newport where the cinema is has really, really bad traffic

Do you honestly believe that the introduction of trams into Newport would see traffic matters of all types improve there if this mode of transport was added to the current scenario? Newport with its centrally situated bus station is indeed the public transport hub of the island where buses serve all the major settlements of the island from.

 

[JohnR]

If the 3rd rail needs money spent on it, why not use the former D-stock? Would there be clearance? This seems like the sort of situation that the conversion was designed for.

 

[swt_passenger]

If the 3rd rail needs money spent on it, why not use the former D-stock? Would there be clearance? This seems like the sort of situation that the conversion was designed for.

D stock would be out of gauge in just the same way most mainline stock would be.

 

[Townsend Hook]

The class 482/'92 stock should be available quite soon after the '72 stock, given that they are both being replaced by the 'New Tube For London'. If the '38 stock can hang on for another six or seven years then '92 stock would probably be the best option (it will only be around 30 years old rather than 50) if the line carries on as heavy rail.

 

[Mikey C]

D stock would be out of gauge in just the same way most mainline stock would be.

The D stock is a bit shorter than mainline stock, and comments elsewhere in this thread suggests that height clearance isn't an issue

 

[Chris125]

D stock would be out of gauge in just the same way most mainline stock would be.

Not necessarily, they have shorter vehicles than most mainline stock and aren't excessively tall so shouldn't be ruled out if a bit more headroom was provided through the tunnel as proposed for the 503s.

 

[JohnR]

Not necessarily, they have shorter vehicles than most mainline stock and aren't excessively tall so shouldn't be ruled out if a bit more headroom was provided through the tunnel as proposed for the 503s.

That was my thought - and isnt it possible that any works to improve the clearances may be cheaper than resolving the 3rd rail?

 

[Domh245]

IIRC, the track level in the tunnel was raised in the near past to prevent flooding issues, It is unlikely that it will be lowered, let alone lowered enough to give D stock sufficient clearance.

 

[aylesbury]

Extending rail links on the island is a very difficult proposition due to the contours of the land,houses and other settlements etc.The current line is not a profitable operation conversion to trams would be a good idea but will require careful thought as to were it could be extended to.Buses give excellent connections throughout the island and are well used by the locals and holiday makers.Roads are narrow and can be very congested and if trams did appear there would have to be much off road running which would be costly.So overall I think that the buses will cope with the traffic on offer and that the current rail offering will still be viable for its segment of traffic so ignore the rants of mp,s.

 

[Chris125]

IIRC, the track level in the tunnel was raised in the near past to prevent flooding issues, It is unlikely that it will be lowered, let alone lowered enough to give D stock sufficient clearance.

I understand the tunnel still needs pumping to cope with high tides - as mentioned in this IRSE article (pg16) - so while the drainage system might need improving it shouldn't introduce any new issues; if lowering the track was a major problem they'd have never proposed using 503s back in the 80s.

 

[abn444]

Does anyone know if class 313s (or the same height 507/508s) would have the clearance for the Ryde tunnel? The 313s fit down the Northern City Line and the 507s and 508s have to fit in the Merseyrail tunnels.

 

[swt_passenger]

If it was going to be so easy to run D stock, (available right now), or anything ex mainline such as a cascaded 313 or 507/8, (all three classes potentially being available within a few years), then why have SWT consistently said that the next stock will be deep tube stock made available from the Piccadilly line?

Probably because the line's finances are such a basket case they don't expect anyone to be able to afford anything other than a 'size for size' replacement.

 

[Chris125]

If it was going to be so easy to run D stock, (available right now), or anything ex mainline such as a cascaded 313 or 507/8, (all three classes potentially being available within a few years), then why have SWT consistently said that the next stock will be deep tube stock made available from the Piccadilly line?

I don't think anyone is saying D Stock would be 'easy', if nothing else there would be issues with platforms, several overbridges and the depot - but they shouldn't be ruled out entirely.

The 313/507/508 designs almost certainly can, as these have vehicles 20m long - aside from the tight clearances in the tunnel, the platform gap at Esplanade would be completely unacceptable.

Deep tube stock would clearly be the easiest option, but suitable replacements won't be available for many years and may themselves need costly alterations - though SWT did once tout Piccadilly stock as replacements, IIRC this ceased when their retirement was pushed back by LUL into the 2020s.

Chris

 

[Stroud Valleys]

With all the publicity after the future of the Island Line Railway, apart from the rolling stock, what infrastructure/maintenance is required to bring the railway up to a satisfactory standard. I hear that the pier needs a lot of work, as does the signalling and installing new loops/removing track etc.

I would have thought that if the power is upgraded (which I understand is only sufficient to allow 2 trains to run on the line), then if you are clever with the timetable, you could allow trains to run every 20 minutes, with trains passing at the loop at Sandown Station, and on the double track section between Smallbrook and St Johns. You could even introduce an extra service between St Johns and Pier Head to enable a 10 minute frequent service due to the existing double track between St Johns and Pier Head.

I can't see why a loop at Brading would work, as apart from achieving a 30 minute frequency, the ferries from Pier Head do not arrive/depart on a 30 minute frequency, but having trains run every 20 minutes would work better to allow connections to and from the ferries to the mainland.

 

[30907]

I'm surprised at the news that there's a power supply issue, given that the original timetable had a 12- minute interval service (reduced to 15 plus the Esplanade Shuttle after the tramway went IIRC).

Power apart, a 20 minute service (which is what the infrastructure was redesigned for when Brading closed, and therefore makes operational sense) is a 50% increase, and the question has to be, would that be cost neutral?

Wasn't there an extensive thread on this last autumn BTW?

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm surprised at the news that there's a power supply issue, given that the original timetable had a 12- minute interval service (reduced to 15 plus the Esplanade Shuttle after the tramway went IIRC).

Power apart, a 20 minute service (which is what the infrastructure was redesigned for when Brading closed, and therefore makes operational sense) is a 50% increase, and the question has to be, would that be cost neutral?

Wasn't there an extensive thread on this last autumn BTW?

There's been any number of threads on this.

Concur about power though, and I don't believe the pier has significant issues either. The reduced number and length of trains running (and withdrawal of the pier shuttle) has just followed the overall demand downwards, I'd be surprised if they were reducing power capacity to suit, unless there's been some catastrophic failure left unrepaired.

I just cannot see that there is much untapped demand that would come back to rail if it was improved.

 

[HSTEd]

Short of extending the pier clean across the solent the railway will just have to potter along as it has always done.

Maybe they could try and play up the tourist attraction angle?

 

[Mikey C]

With all the publicity after the future of the Island Line Railway, apart from the rolling stock, what infrastructure/maintenance is required to bring the railway up to a satisfactory standard. I hear that the pier needs a lot of work, as does the signalling and installing new loops/removing track etc.

I would have thought that if the power is upgraded (which I understand is only sufficient to allow 2 trains to run on the line), then if you are clever with the timetable, you could allow trains to run every 20 minutes, with trains passing at the loop at Sandown Station, and on the double track section between Smallbrook and St Johns. You could even introduce an extra service between St Johns and Pier Head to enable a 10 minute frequent service due to the existing double track between St Johns and Pier Head.

I can't see why a loop at Brading would work, as apart from achieving a 30 minute frequency, the ferries from Pier Head do not arrive/depart on a 30 minute frequency, but having trains run every 20 minutes would work better to allow connections to and from the ferries to the mainland.

While the line along the pier head is amusing, is it really essential? It's hardly a long walk between there and Ryde Esplanade station, and visitors by Hovercraft arrive in town anyway?

 

[Stroud Valleys]

has anyone got timetable/frequency of the island lien trains back in the day?

 

[Bletchleyite]

While the line along the pier head is amusing, is it really essential? It's hardly a long walk between there and Ryde Esplanade station, and visitors by Hovercraft arrive in town anyway?

It's pretty grim in bad weather, but they could always run a lightweight enclosed golf buggy type shuttle instead.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Something like this:

http://citecarelectricvehicles.com/...9&title=citEcar+Enclosed+Electric+Shuttle+15p

would do the job while being environmentally friendly and light enough to run on the pier.

 

[30907]

has anyone got timetable/frequency of the island lien trains back in the day?

Which day?
Steam on summer Saturdays was 4 per hour to Sandown, PLUS the Cowes.
Electrics started as 12 minute interval (again talking Saturday peak), which required the second platform at Shanklin, soon reduced to 15 when that went (and meaning a longish stop at Sandown, so not specially efficient), and then to 20 which allowed Brading -Sandown singling.
The Esplanade Shuttle was timetabled for a few years alongside the 15 minute service and then went to As Required.

Can't be specific on dates, but fairly sure Shanklin box lasted to 1971.

 

[Chris125]

With all the publicity after the future of the Island Line Railway, apart from the rolling stock, what infrastructure/maintenance is required to bring the railway up to a satisfactory standard. I hear that the pier needs a lot of work, as does the signalling and installing new loops/removing track etc.

Chris Garnet's Report suggest's its far from clear, if there is detailed knowledge little if any of it has been public.

I can't see why a loop at Brading would work, as apart from achieving a 30 minute frequency, the ferries from Pier Head do not arrive/depart on a 30 minute frequency, but having trains run every 20 minutes would work better to allow connections to and from the ferries to the mainland.

The Catamaran is generally hourly with extra sailings inbetween in the evening and at busy times - a loop in the vicinity of Brading would allow both to operate twice per hour timed to meet, without incurring the costs of 3tph.

While the line along the pier head is amusing, is it really essential?

It most certainly is, there's nothing funny about being walking along a half mile pier in a winter storm completely exposed to the weather - with no public transport alternative it is here to stay.

As for the Hovercraft, it fulfills a niche but the Catamaran is the principal passenger service for most people especially Islanders with its greater capacity and a far better located terminal at Portsmouth Harbour, while able to operate in almost all weather conditions.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How much of the old IoW railways have been built on? i know that Ventnor could never reopen (at least on it's original site)?

 

[Chris125]

How much of the old IoW railways have been built on? i know that Ventnor could never reopen (at least on it's original site)?

The only lines that might realistically be reopened are Shanklin-Ventnor and Ryde-Newport-Cowes - as explained in this study the former could be reopened as heavy rail, but the latter would require trams with much of the formation through Newport and Cowes lost to roads and housing.

 

[yorksrob]

How much of the old IoW railways have been built on? i know that Ventnor could never reopen (at least on it's original site)?

I don't know. It's a pretty pedestrian industrial unit which could easily be relocated.

 

[DerekC]

Short of extending the pier clean across the solent the railway will just have to potter along as it has always done.

There was a plan for a tunnel, but as I recall it was at the western end of the island.