• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Trams proposed for Isle of Wight

Status
Not open for further replies.

Argosy

Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
193
My plan is to run off-road (but roughly alongside it) with street running in town centres where it is unavoidable.

That would be virtually impossible on the IoW with the exception of the Military Road! The destruction in houses gardens would be unbelievable.

Like any 'community' there are attractors i.e. places that people need to go. In the main on a daily basis they are clearly shops, places of employment, education and health facilities.

Like many places the Island has its fare share of out of town centres. In the early 1950's (first tranche of rail closures) and 1966 (second tranche) these didn't exist. We didn't have trading estates. In 1966 the obvious trading estates were probably Plessey (one site employer off Three Gates Road near Northwood) and er that's it. Other out of town employers would have been the hospitals St Mary's (mainly between Parkhurst and Newport) and the prisons (Albany, Camp Hill, Parkhurst).

I think the first major out of town site would have been Tesco's in the very early 1980's. I ran a bus service there from the West Wight. I was the first operator to get a road service licence in around 50 years (as a new incumbent) that is how much control Southern Vectis and Seaview Services and Moss Motor Tours had then.

Obviously since the late 70's things have changed. Old rail sites like at Newport, Wroxall, Ventnor, Freshwater have been built on (though Freshwater largely exists if you know where to look.) The biggest one is at Newport where Riverway now carries on to St Mary's obliterating all the rail alignment north out of Newport for a mile or so making it impossible to replicate. South of Newport the M3057(S) aka the 'Coppins Bridge inner relief road' has been built along the alignment south from the Medina rail bridge southern spur (demolished about 1966/7?) as far as Shide. The old Shide station is where National Tyre is. It was the first station site (as opposed to building) to be converted IIRC.

All this means is that you have to look at what you want to achieve.

If that 'achievement/goal' is akin to say Sheffield Supertram then nearly all street running might be appropriate, but once you've speced that out....you might as well have kept the bus?

As I have posted previously there are various retail corridors that people aspire/gravitate towards. I would suggest the main ones are Newport, Westridge (Tesco's) and Ryde. With secondary ones being Cowes, East Cowes, Freshwater, Sandown, Shanklin and Ventnor. You then have the big people aggregators like the College, High Schools, St Mary's, the larger employers and the cross Solent terminals. Connecting these up by a rail based system is the difficulty.

The main environmental advantages of a tram based system would be power (electricity) rather than derv (buses) and relief of traffic congestion. I am not sure of how much of the latter one might achieve. But one thing is true, people are more readily attracted to rail based systems than bus based systems.

In the end of course no tram based network will be built on the Island because there has been and is no vision. It is all cheapskate built on mainland cast offs, always was under the old IoW rail companies, SR, BTC and BR.

But if we are to think of the next 100 years instead of the next 'term of office', think strategically yep you might have a good argument. The road surfaces get worse, the council has less and less money, people live longer, populations grow (even if it's a geriatric one - I'm heading there) and there are more demands put on the system.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Chris125

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2009
Messages
3,076
All the ferry terminals have buses that stop beside them and most routes use Newport as a hub this is where people who live on the island want and need to go regularly.

The obvious, and rather relevant exception being the Catamaran terminal at Ryde Pier Head.

It would be neither practical nor politically acceptable to suggest replacing the train with a significantly more expensive, slower and less reliable bus service that can't get nearer than half a mile to such an important ferry service, and thankfully no one is.
 

westcoaster

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2006
Messages
4,232
Location
DTOS A or B
I posted else where, but I see the Glasgow subway is getting new stock from stadler.
How about a tag on order for the IOWA.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,080
The Isle of Wight has such an excellent bus service that I can see no reason to even discuss a tram system, save (possibly) for a low-cost replacement of the trains, if such a thing were possible! The fares may be high, for short distances anyway, but they wouldn't be any lower on trams unless they were artificially subsidised.
 

Argosy

Member
Joined
28 Feb 2011
Messages
193
The Isle of Wight has such an excellent bus service that I can see no reason to even discuss a tram system, save (possibly) for a low-cost replacement of the trains, if such a thing were possible! The fares may be high, for short distances anyway, but they wouldn't be any lower on trams unless they were artificially subsidised.

Except that

1. The buses are in the same traffic queue as other road vehicles.
2. Buses run on diesel (although there are bio fuel vehicles around but not I think on Insula Vectis)
3. Buses don't attract people from cars.
4. Buses are getting larger and heavier.
5. Buses require tree lopping.
6. Buses lack a degree of permanency.
7. Buses contribute to road damage.

I wouldn't say that the bus service is excellent, but by mainland standards I can see why it is seen as such since frequencies on the Island tend to be higher by comparison. There are areas now devoid of bus services on the Island.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,370
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
That would be virtually impossible on the IoW with the exception of the Military Road!

Is there still problems with cliff erosion in that particular area?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I wouldn't say that the bus service is excellent, but by mainland standards I can see why it is seen as such since frequencies on the Island tend to be higher by comparison. There are areas now devoid of bus services on the Island.

I should well imagine that any areas of the Isle of Wight that now have no bus services would never be considered for inclusion in any expansion of the suggested tram system that has been a subject of previous discussion on this thread.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,711
How about trolleybuses?

The have advantages over buses in the fuel use and permanency department whilst being considerably cheaper to implement than trams.
 
Joined
19 Aug 2015
Messages
83
I don't know a lot about the situation with the replacement of london underground stock, but surely, then the next batch of suitable units are ordered, could an extra order of 6-8 trains be built for the IOW, 2 carriages in length. I think the new underground stock is designed so that you can move from carriage to carriage, which would help with IOW revenue collection without the need to employ more revenue collection guards.

I am also confused with the revenue situation. There are approximately 1 million passengers, revenue of approximately £1 million, but yet the cheapest ticket is more than a £1. If most passengers go from Ryde to the Pier, would it not make sense to get ticket barriers installed at the Ryde stations to ensure everyone does pay the relevant fair?

Isn't network rail due to takeover the running of the IOW infrastructure at some point in the next couple of years? If so, surely this would result in much needed investment to keep the existing IOW network intact for another 10-20 years, and ensure that some minor improvements are carried out, i.e. loop at Brading, so a 30 minute frequency can be achieved. Otherwise, a 20 minute frequency could be achieved on existing track during periods of high demand.

Couldn't the old platform 2 at Ryde Town Centre be removed together with its track to save some money? Could this enable some development of the Ryde Station area so as to reduce the sharpness of the curve?
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,322
I am also confused with the revenue situation. There are approximately 1 million passengers, revenue of approximately £1 million, but yet the cheapest ticket is more than a £1. If most passengers go from Ryde to the Pier, would it not make sense to get ticket barriers installed at the Ryde stations to ensure everyone does pay the relevant fair?

There are a few things that will impact on the average ticket price, for instance the annual season ticket between the Ryde Pier Head and Ryde St Johns is £332, given that most people with that ticket would probably use it twice daily for work (about 225 working week days per year) puts it in at £0.74 per passenger journey (less if they use it for other trips).

Ryde St Johns to Ryde Esplanade is even less at £172 per year or £0.38 for each trip for working day use (again less if they use it for leisure trips as well).

Even Shanklin to Ryde Pier Head is £760 per year or £1.69 for each trip for working day use. However, given that that basically allows unlimited travel people will also use it for any journeys that they have to make and not just for work, which means that as long as you average 2.1 trips per day then the cost per trip falls to less than £1 per day.

As an example of this you have someone who uses it for getting to and from work (450 trips), goes out on one evening a week having already gone home (100 trips, allowing a few losses due to being away), uses it five times a weekend (shopping, church, football, or some other activity) for a there and back trip (250 trips) and you are up to 800 trips over the course of a year. That then puts the cost £0.95 per trip, although chances are people will use it more than that which will push the cost per trip down even further.

It doesn't take many people using it a lot on their annual season tickets to bring the average down to £1 per trip.
 
Joined
19 Aug 2015
Messages
83
There are a few things that will impact on the average ticket price, for instance the annual season ticket between the Ryde Pier Head and Ryde St Johns is £332, given that most people with that ticket would probably use it twice daily for work (about 225 working week days per year) puts it in at £0.74 per passenger journey (less if they use it for other trips).

Ryde St Johns to Ryde Esplanade is even less at £172 per year or £0.38 for each trip for working day use (again less if they use it for leisure trips as well).

Even Shanklin to Ryde Pier Head is £760 per year or £1.69 for each trip for working day use. However, given that that basically allows unlimited travel people will also use it for any journeys that they have to make and not just for work, which means that as long as you average 2.1 trips per day then the cost per trip falls to less than £1 per day.

As an example of this you have someone who uses it for getting to and from work (450 trips), goes out on one evening a week having already gone home (100 trips, allowing a few losses due to being away), uses it five times a weekend (shopping, church, football, or some other activity) for a there and back trip (250 trips) and you are up to 800 trips over the course of a year. That then puts the cost £0.95 per trip, although chances are people will use it more than that which will push the cost per trip down even further.

It doesn't take many people using it a lot on their annual season tickets to bring the average down to £1 per trip.

In which case shouldn't the authorities consider introducing different types of ticketing schemes to make the service more profitable? I presume the bus is more expensive, but surely train prices or season tickets could be readjusted to gather more revenue without making it more expensive compared with the bus.
 

Townsend Hook

Member
Joined
3 Aug 2011
Messages
541
Location
Gone
I don't know a lot about the situation with the replacement of london underground stock, but surely, then the next batch of suitable units are ordered, could an extra order of 6-8 trains be built for the IOW, 2 carriages in length.

Realistically there's not going to be much hope of brand new tube trains for the IoW, when you consider each carriage would likely cost over £1m, which is more than the annual revenue of the line. On the other hand, acquiring ex-tube 1992 stock (which is due to be replaced as part the New Tube for London program) would be a much more viable proposition.
 

RPM

Established Member
Joined
24 Sep 2009
Messages
1,470
Location
Buckinghamshire
Realistically there's not going to be much hope of brand new tube trains for the IoW, when you consider each carriage would likely cost over £1m, which is more than the annual revenue of the line. On the other hand, acquiring ex-tube 1992 stock (which is due to be replaced as part the New Tube for London program) would be a much more viable proposition.

The problem is the 483s are life expired now but the 92 stock will not be available for several years.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,711
Are they any more life expired than they were 10 years ago? Or 20?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,784
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
In which case shouldn't the authorities consider introducing different types of ticketing schemes to make the service more profitable? I presume the bus is more expensive, but surely train prices or season tickets could be readjusted to gather more revenue without making it more expensive compared with the bus.

What it really needs if it is to survive (and I'm really not sure it will, nor that it will upset too many people if it doesn't, short of some kind of pier people-mover) is integrating with the bus network, both in terms of fares and in terms of the timetable.
 

Chris125

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2009
Messages
3,076
Are they any more life expired than they were 10 years ago? Or 20?

IIRC Stagecoach insisted that they'd be 'life expired' by 2007... but they went through an overhaul and here they still are, as reliable as ever.
 

RPM

Established Member
Joined
24 Sep 2009
Messages
1,470
Location
Buckinghamshire
IIRC Stagecoach insisted that they'd be 'life expired' by 2007... but they went through an overhaul and here they still are, as reliable as ever.

I guess it is a case of not wanting to spend money on them at this late stage. I'm not sure what their mechanical state is but the interiors are OK. It is the external finish that is badly letting them down, certainly cosmetically and possibly structurally. That sea spray does it no good.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,080
With battery buses now entirely viable, the raison d'etre of trolleybuses is fading a little.

The British jury is out on battery buses. It may enter a verdict round about the second week in September, a fortnight after a whole fleet of these buses, 51 in number, is introduced simultaneously on two routes in London. This will be the largest-ever (in the world) introduction of battery buses, should it take place as scheduled.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,711
With battery buses now entirely viable, the raison d'etre of trolleybuses is fading a little.

Eh, not entirely sure they are that viable if we are to introduce comforts like air con on a wide scale which will become important with the ongoing climatic shifts.

They are also very expensive - a Trolleybus can sit in a traffic queue indefinitely with all its auxilliaries running. A battery bus cannot.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,784
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
They are also very expensive - a Trolleybus can sit in a traffic queue indefinitely with all its auxilliaries running. A battery bus cannot.

A bus should not ever "sit in a traffic queue indefinitely". If it does, the design of the infrastructure is faulty. Fix the problem, not the symptom.
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
A bus should not ever "sit in a traffic queue indefinitely". If it does, the design of the infrastructure is faulty. Fix the problem, not the symptom.

Their point still stands though especially if its caught up in an accident and cant get around the problem.

Hydrogen bus would be a better solution than battery ones imo. Anyway I hate buses they should get trams.
 
Joined
19 Aug 2015
Messages
83
On Wednesday 16th March, all members of the IW Council will be considering a paper regarding the Garnett Report (which proposes that the best way forward would be for Island Line to operate as a separate franchise).

https://www.iwight.com/…/…/mod-council/16-3-16/Paper D.pdf

The KILF fundamentally disagrees. His recommendations also run contrary to the September resolution of the IW Council to support Island Line remaining in the wider franchise.

The KILF also have concerns about the feasibility of the tram model suggested by Christopher Garnett.

At its meeting next week, the IW Council will decide whether to endorse Garnett's report or instead reaffirm the decision they made in September 2015 to back Island Line remaining in the regional franchise.

The KILF will later today publish a comprehensive response to the Garnett Report, ahead of next week's Full Council meeting.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,845
Eh, not entirely sure they are that viable if we are to introduce comforts like air con on a wide scale which will become important with the ongoing climatic shifts.

They are also very expensive - a Trolleybus can sit in a traffic queue indefinitely with all its auxilliaries running. A battery bus cannot.

I'm not sure full aircon is an essential in the UK with our climate.

On the IOW they can just run all the buses as open topped Breezer services is they want people upstairs to get some fresh air :D
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,711
A bus should not ever "sit in a traffic queue indefinitely". If it does, the design of the infrastructure is faulty. Fix the problem, not the symptom.

So buses never get caught in traffic jams, caused by accidents or otherwise or otherwise get stuck :|
 

Chris125

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2009
Messages
3,076
On Wednesday 16th March, all members of the IW Council will be considering a paper regarding the Garnett Report (which proposes that the best way forward would be for Island Line to operate as a separate franchise).

OnTheWight has the various documents, including Mark Brinton's 29 page response to Chris Garnett's report - he is one of the foremost experts on the Island's railway history especially it's rolling stock, and has been personally involved with the line's current fleet including the conversion of the 483s.

His full report is available here, but the main points are summarised below:


- "With regard to the difference between “heavy rail”, “Island Line” and “light rail/tramway” track maintenance standards there is a myth perpetuated mainly by tramway enthusiasts that Island Line is maintained to “heavy rail” standards and therefore excessively expensive…. The argument that a tramway would be cheaper to maintain does not stand close scrutiny."

- "The tramway will require track maintenance standards significantly higher than that necessary for a railway operating at the same speed.”

- “To reduce the permitted track twist to levels tolerated by trams would require a significantly higher standard of track maintenance than would otherwise be afforded if the track were to be restored and maintained at an acceptable level for a train operation”.

- “UK Tram are currently quoting the average cost of building a tram track as between £12.2m and £26m per kilometre.”

- “I suspect that in the event of Island Line becoming a tramway the DfT would seek to have it removed from the National Rail Network with the associated loss of network benefits such as through tickets etc…
It would remove the ability of mainland passengers to book through to Island Line destinations.”

- “With regard to the rolling stock on Island Line, it is the writer’s considered technical opinion that the existing rolling stock could be kept operational until the end of the next franchise period (7-10 years)."

- However it will require some investment in the vehicles to achieve this. Given that the next franchise period could end in 2024 to 2027 then then would be the time to consider replacing the rolling stock with something more modern. It also gives time for decisions regarding improvement of the infrastructure to be made and implemented and some return on the investment in the existing rolling stock.”

- He provides a detailed analysis in relation to the potential use of alternative Tube Stock, dismissing Mr Garnett’s conclusion that there are no options available on this front [pages 6 to 7] before going to say that: “it is likely that an extensive (and expensive) scope of work would be necessary to make redundant tram vehicles fit to operate on the Island”.​
 
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
24
Could you resolve the track twist problems by fitting railway tyres with deep flanges to trams for off-street use? Alternatively, how much red tape would there be importing second hand metro trains from abroad?
 

glbotu

Member
Joined
8 Apr 2012
Messages
644
Location
Oxford
Could you resolve the track twist problems by fitting railway tyres with deep flanges to trams for off-street use? Alternatively, how much red tape would there be importing second hand metro trains from abroad?

So there are probably several issues with this:

- You can operate old British stock on grandfather rights, who knows whether that would work with old German/French etc stock. I'd assume no.

- I'd assume the loading gauge would be too big.

- The means of electric pickup would be wrong. Most foreign metros use bottom-contact or side-contact 3rd rail, rather than the top-contact third rail used here. Not to mention the position of the 3rd rail would probably be wrong. Assuming that we're trying to minimise infrastructure costs, it's probably just not worth it.

Explain further on railway tyres? Do you mean like the Paris Metro?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top