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Trans-Pennine DMU Evolution

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RLBH

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The excellent railcar.co.uk website hosts copies of BR's London Midland Region Lightweight Trains Committee minutes. Reading these in sequence, one can get an insight into the evolution of the Class 124 Trans-Pennine multiple units. Interestingly, they weren't originally planned for the Liverpool to Hull service. There were three routes under consideration early in the life of the project:
  • Liverpool to Leeds via Manchester Victoria and the Diggle route, reversing at Bradford
  • Liverpool & Manchester to Birmingham
  • Birmingham to Swansea, intended to be a Western Region route
For the Liverpool to Leeds route, an end-to-end timing of 2 hours was desired, though with allowances 2 hours 10 minutes was all that could be achieved; this was thought to be acceptable. A fleet of six 6-car trainsets in service was required, with a further two in maintenance and two for relief making a total of ten trainsets. Summer Saturdays were initially thought to require eight-car trains, which couldn't be accomodated at Leeds and would require these trains to terminate at Bradford. As the scheme evolved, it was intended to run an increased level of service with 6-car trains instead. By May 1958, plans had shifted to the use of standard-type DMUs on this route rather than the planned Inter-City types.

The Liverpool & Manchester to Birmingham services were slightly less progressed than the Liverpool-Leeds-Bradford scheme, with an end-to-end journey time of 1 hour 40 minutes expected; it isn't clear if this was the expected time from Liverpool or Manchester. In either case, it was hoped to extend service through to Coventry. Four units in service were expected to be required, presumably with overheads for maintenance and reliefs, but as these would primarily serve business traffic there would be a reduced demand on Saturdays. It was hoped that this would allow surplus units to relieve the Liverpool-Leeds-Bradford route. As it happened, the scheme was deferred given plans to electrify the lines in question, and seems never to have resurfaced.

The Western Region's service from Birmingham to Swansea isn't as well documented, presumably since the minutes are for the London Midland Region. Presumably this would have run along the main line via Stratford and Gloucester, which actually saw operations with the first six Swindon 79xxx-series units. These units may well have fulfilled this requirement for the Western Region.

The Eastern Region thought they might be able to employ similar units on Kings' Cross to Cambridge, but felt that it might be uneconomic compared to standard two-car DMUs, and in any case was anticipating extension of the Great Northern electrification to cover the route. Their response seems to have been fairly lukewarm.

The North Eastern Region came into the project fairly late, and was interested in dieselising the existing locomotive-hauled service from Liverpool to Hull over the LNWR route. This was the only one of the proposed schemes, possibly excepting Birmingham-Swansea, to enter service. Ironically, despite the units being an LMR plan, this scheme was proposed to the British Transport Commission by the NER who ultimately operated it.

WR and LMR units needed different designs of buffet car, with surprising amounts of time spent developing these - the minutes discuss buffet cars and power trains, but almost no mention is made of the remainder of the passenger accomodation! Destination indicators were initially to be fitted, with a front indicator showing the final terminus and traditional side mounted destination boards. Neither of these seem to have made it into service, though I imagine the headcode box replaced the front destination indicator.

Technically, it was expected that the trains would be a clear move away from legacy rolling stock, with air brakes and electric heating, and capable of running at 85mph - sightlines and signalling were to be checked for this speed. The units actually built only ran at 70mph, and seem overpowered for this speed even considering gradients. I can't help wondering if the 85mph speed was still being hoped for quite late, but never materialised.

Early powertrain work was done on the basis of a 450hp Paxman engine - which must have been the ZH - in an under-floor mounting. It isn't clear what form of transmission was planned, but a demonstrator was built that clocked up in excess of 22,000 miles. An alternative scheme was for a 'mobile power house', presumably diesel-electric, with above-floor engines. The corridor width past the engine would not be acceptable for passenger access, though, so such a configuration would need to have end power cars similar to the later Blue Pullman.

From the start, though, the London Midland region was clear that it wanted to have clear views to the front and rear, meaning no end gangways as were provided on contemporary Western Region and Scottish Region Inter-City multiple units. This would suggest that the 'mobile power house' was unlikely to have found favour. The choice of engine stalled design of the trains for nearly a year between mid-late 1957 and May 1958, before pairs of 238hp Rolls-Royce engines were settled on, despite the Paxman engine being satisfactory.

With operations planned to start in June 1960, all units needed to be delivered by May 1960, and an order placed by January of that year. Approval came from the British Transport Commission by the end of April 1959, leading to the units entering service (six months late) in 1961.
 
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TBirdFrank

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I remember them as dark and uncomfortable with highback seats and restricted views - shame as externally they were quite stylish.
 

daikilo

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The excellent railcar.co.uk website hosts copies of BR's London Midland Region Lightweight Trains Committee minutes. Reading these in sequence, one can get an insight into the evolution of the Class 124 Trans-Pennine multiple units. Interestingly, they weren't originally planned for the Liverpool to Hull service. There were three routes under consideration early in the life of the project:
  • Liverpool to Leeds via Manchester Victoria and the Diggle route, reversing at Bradford
  • Liverpool & Manchester to Birmingham
  • Birmingham to Swansea, intended to be a Western Region route
For the Liverpool to Leeds route, an end-to-end timing of 2 hours was desired, though with allowances 2 hours 10 minutes was all that could be achieved; this was thought to be acceptable. A fleet of six 6-car trainsets in service was required, with a further two in maintenance and two for relief making a total of ten trainsets. Summer Saturdays were initially thought to require eight-car trains, which couldn't be accomodated at Leeds and would require these trains to terminate at Bradford. As the scheme evolved, it was intended to run an increased level of service with 6-car trains instead. By May 1958, plans had shifted to the use of standard-type DMUs on this route rather than the planned Inter-City types.

The Liverpool & Manchester to Birmingham services were slightly less progressed than the Liverpool-Leeds-Bradford scheme, with an end-to-end journey time of 1 hour 40 minutes expected; it isn't clear if this was the expected time from Liverpool or Manchester. In either case, it was hoped to extend service through to Coventry. Four units in service were expected to be required, presumably with overheads for maintenance and reliefs, but as these would primarily serve business traffic there would be a reduced demand on Saturdays. It was hoped that this would allow surplus units to relieve the Liverpool-Leeds-Bradford route. As it happened, the scheme was deferred given plans to electrify the lines in question, and seems never to have resurfaced.

The Western Region's service from Birmingham to Swansea isn't as well documented, presumably since the minutes are for the London Midland Region. Presumably this would have run along the main line via Stratford and Gloucester, which actually saw operations with the first six Swindon 79xxx-series units. These units may well have fulfilled this requirement for the Western Region.

The Eastern Region thought they might be able to employ similar units on Kings' Cross to Cambridge, but felt that it might be uneconomic compared to standard two-car DMUs, and in any case was anticipating extension of the Great Northern electrification to cover the route. Their response seems to have been fairly lukewarm.

The North Eastern Region came into the project fairly late, and was interested in dieselising the existing locomotive-hauled service from Liverpool to Hull over the LNWR route. This was the only one of the proposed schemes, possibly excepting Birmingham-Swansea, to enter service. Ironically, despite the units being an LMR plan, this scheme was proposed to the British Transport Commission by the NER who ultimately operated it.

WR and LMR units needed different designs of buffet car, with surprising amounts of time spent developing these - the minutes discuss buffet cars and power trains, but almost no mention is made of the remainder of the passenger accomodation! Destination indicators were initially to be fitted, with a front indicator showing the final terminus and traditional side mounted destination boards. Neither of these seem to have made it into service, though I imagine the headcode box replaced the front destination indicator.

Technically, it was expected that the trains would be a clear move away from legacy rolling stock, with air brakes and electric heating, and capable of running at 85mph - sightlines and signalling were to be checked for this speed. The units actually built only ran at 70mph, and seem overpowered for this speed even considering gradients. I can't help wondering if the 85mph speed was still being hoped for quite late, but never materialised.

Early powertrain work was done on the basis of a 450hp Paxman engine - which must have been the ZH - in an under-floor mounting. It isn't clear what form of transmission was planned, but a demonstrator was built that clocked up in excess of 22,000 miles. An alternative scheme was for a 'mobile power house', presumably diesel-electric, with above-floor engines. The corridor width past the engine would not be acceptable for passenger access, though, so such a configuration would need to have end power cars similar to the later Blue Pullman.

From the start, though, the London Midland region was clear that it wanted to have clear views to the front and rear, meaning no end gangways as were provided on contemporary Western Region and Scottish Region Inter-City multiple units. This would suggest that the 'mobile power house' was unlikely to have found favour. The choice of engine stalled design of the trains for nearly a year between mid-late 1957 and May 1958, before pairs of 238hp Rolls-Royce engines were settled on, despite the Paxman engine being satisfactory.

With operations planned to start in June 1960, all units needed to be delivered by May 1960, and an order placed by January of that year. Approval came from the British Transport Commission by the end of April 1959, leading to the units entering service (six months late) in 1961.

Interesting background. They were built with Leyland engines. I personally ranked them as the most enjoyable of that genetration of DMU and in the 1970s, on the odd set where all engines were operating, they were relatively quick. However,I remember one trip behind the cab where the driver spent most of his time during the climb from Stalybridge restarting one engine or another, not sure if we ever had all at any one point.
 
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randyrippley

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Given the history of the Paxman ZH in the class 17, maybe it was just as well they weren't used in passenger stock
 

Bevan Price

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I used the Class 124 for many years, and still consider them the best dmus ever used in UK in terms of passenger comfort / environment.
Mechanically, they were a bit erratic, especially as they got older, and it would have been preferable if they had been allowed to run faster than 70 mph (although that might have needed mechanical transmission being replaced by some more suitable alternative..).
 

hexagon789

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I used the Class 124 for many years, and still consider them the best dmus ever used in UK in terms of passenger comfort / environment.
Mechanically, they were a bit erratic, especially as they got older, and it would have been preferable if they had been allowed to run faster than 70 mph (although that might have needed mechanical transmission being replaced by some more suitable alternative..).

Very likely a new transmission, the four-speed epicyclic gearboxes only gave a maximum of 65 in top gear based on the gear ratios.
 

Pyreneenguy

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Visually, the most attractive DMU to have been built and used on British railways.

When I was a teenager, I lived right next to Hillside station ( Merseyrail). It was mostly EMU's but now and again a surprise turned up on the Liverpool Lime St- Southport DMU's and on one ocassion in 1976 a class 124 was used, probably to replace a failed 101. I whizzed down to Birkdale station with the camera, as I knew the return empty-stock had to stop there to push the plunger for the automatic barriers at Eastborne Road level crossing. I'll have to route it out, lost somewhere in the countless numbers of boxes of slides I have gathering dust !
 

yorksrob

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It's a shame they never preserved one. They certainly looked comfortable from the few interior pictures I've seen.
 

Ash Bridge

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It's a shame they never preserved one. They certainly looked comfortable from the few interior pictures I've seen.

I do agree. Back in my younger days I can recall travelling between Leeds and Stalybridge/Manchester Victoria on these DMUs in the 2nd class compartments, sadly I can't find a single shot showing the compartment interiors 2nd or 1st class version but seem to remember that in 2nd there were no arm rests provided unlike most of the loco hauled mk1 equivalents, they were nonetheless still very comfortable though and it seemed a novelty to me being able to sit in a compartment on a DMMU rather than on normal hauled stock. I also remember wandering down to the buffet area on these units but recall being disappointed to find it never open for business.
 

theblackwatch

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I do agree. Back in my younger days I can recall travelling between Leeds and Stalybridge/Manchester Victoria on these DMUs in the 2nd class compartments, sadly I can't find a single shot showing the compartment interiors 2nd or 1st class version but seem to remember that in 2nd there were no arm rests provided unlike most of the loco hauled mk1 equivalents, they were nonetheless still very comfortable though and it seemed a novelty to me being able to sit in a compartment on a DMMU rather than on normal hauled stock. I also remember wandering down to the buffet area on these units but recall being disappointed to find it never open for business.

I don't remember the buffet cars on these units (I think they were removed in the 70s), but I recall that each Saturday one used to come into one of the bays (platform 10/11) at York station in what must have been the late 70s/early 80s. My memories are more of them on the South TPE services (Hull-Manchester Picc) in around 1983/84, which ran via Doncaster back then, before they were replaced by Class 31s on load 4.

There was a preservation attempt by the NYMR, but unfortunately the units were full of asbestos - I think this was the main reason it didn't happen.
 

Capybara

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I do agree. Back in my younger days I can recall travelling between Leeds and Stalybridge/Manchester Victoria on these DMUs in the 2nd class compartments, sadly I can't find a single shot showing the compartment interiors 2nd or 1st class version but seem to remember that in 2nd there were no arm rests provided unlike most of the loco hauled mk1 equivalents, they were nonetheless still very comfortable though and it seemed a novelty to me being able to sit in a compartment on a DMMU rather than on normal hauled stock. I also remember wandering down to the buffet area on these units but recall being disappointed to find it never open for business.
Yes indeed. The 07:45 from Leeds to Stalybridge was a regular, then on to the Stalybridge-Stockport, perhaps with a stop at Guide Bridge to watch a few 76s, then on to Crewe.
 

Ash Bridge

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I don't remember the buffet cars on these units (I think they were removed in the 70s), but I recall that each Saturday one used to come into one of the bays (platform 10/11) at York station in what must have been the late 70s/early 80s. My memories are more of them on the South TPE services (Hull-Manchester Picc) in around 1983/84, which ran via Doncaster back then, before they were replaced by Class 31s on load 4.


There was a preservation attempt by the NYMR, but unfortunately the units were full of asbestos - I think this was the main reason it didn't happen.

My recollections were from roughly the 1971-74 period so perhaps from around 1976(ish) onwards that the buffets were removed? Never got to sample them on South TPE services unfortunately, is this the period when they were mix & matched with their Swindon InterCity cousins?
Yes indeed. The 07:45 from Leeds to Stalybridge was a regular, then on to the Stalybridge-Stockport, perhaps with a stop at Guide Bridge to watch a few 76s, then on to Crewe.

We were coming from the opposite direction to you. Usually starting at Reddish South then Stalybridge to Leeds/York for the day for a Deltic fix :) the 124 was normally on the homeward leg for us, Ah. Happy times!
 

Taunton

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The Western Region's service from Birmingham to Swansea isn't as well documented, presumably since the minutes are for the London Midland Region. Presumably this would have run along the main line via Stratford and Gloucester, which actually saw operations with the first six Swindon 79xxx-series units. These units may well have fulfilled this requirement for the Western Region.
The service actually left Birmingham in the opposite direction, and ran via Kidderminster, Worcester, Hereford and Newport. There might have been runs via Stratford as well, but this is the way I have always seen photos of them. They were sometimes reinforced to 7 cars by an additional ex-GWR loco-hauled corridor second tacked on the back. The 79xxx cars only lasted about a year on this work before being sent to join their fellows in Scotland, being replaced by the next cars off the Swindon production line, the large batch of 50 "blue square" 3-car Cross-Country units for the WR, which took over many of the workings in this whole area for the next 25 years.
 

mpthomson

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There was a period when they cropped up on Leeds-Carnforth-Morecambe-Lancaster too in the twilight of their existence.
 

yorksrob

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I do agree. Back in my younger days I can recall travelling between Leeds and Stalybridge/Manchester Victoria on these DMUs in the 2nd class compartments, sadly I can't find a single shot showing the compartment interiors 2nd or 1st class version but seem to remember that in 2nd there were no arm rests provided unlike most of the loco hauled mk1 equivalents, they were nonetheless still very comfortable though and it seemed a novelty to me being able to sit in a compartment on a DMMU rather than on normal hauled stock. I also remember wandering down to the buffet area on these units but recall being disappointed to find it never open for business.

There was a period when they cropped up on Leeds-Carnforth-Morecambe-Lancaster too in the twilight of their existence.

As a regular user of the Little North Western, these units sound as though they would be bliss for my jaunt back from Lancaster.
 

theblackwatch

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My recollections were from roughly the 1971-74 period so perhaps from around 1976(ish) onwards that the buffets were removed? Never got to sample them on South TPE services unfortunately, is this the period when they were mix & matched with their Swindon InterCity cousins?

Yes, South TPE was 123/124 hybrids. I do recall a rare occasion where we saw a set at Doncaster heading for Manchester with a 101 driving car leading a 123/124 occasion. The gangways between the units were totally different and were banging against each other. Suffice to say, when it returned later in the day, it was running rather late. The 101s had 2x150 hp engines, whereas the 123/124 power cars were fitted with 2x230 hp engines so clearly a 'lack of power' in the formation.
 

hexagon789

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I seem to recall that these buffet cars were rebuilt for EMU service - possibly SR or ER??

No, the 124 buffets were all withdrawn. I think you are thinking of the 123s, one buffet car from those (being fitted with BT bogies) was repurposed for use in an EMU, I forget which class.
 

delt1c

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No, the 124 buffets were all withdrawn. I think you are thinking of the 123s, one buffet car from those (being fitted with BT bogies) was repurposed for use in an EMU, I forget which class.
Clacton 309
 

Ash Bridge

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As a regular user of the Little North Western, these units sound as though they would be bliss for my jaunt back from Lancaster.

And especially so if the buffet counter was still fitted serving a decent range of quality beers, pies and sausage rolls etc. :smile:
Yes, South TPE was 123/124 hybrids. I do recall a rare occasion where we saw a set at Doncaster heading for Manchester with a 101 driving car leading a 123/124 occasion. The gangways between the units were totally different and were banging against each other. Suffice to say, when it returned later in the day, it was running rather late. The 101s had 2x150 hp engines, whereas the 123/124 power cars were fitted with 2x230 hp engines so clearly a 'lack of power' in the formation.

Indeed, what an unlikely hotch potch of vehicles! It must have also been quite interesting to compare the differences in ride quality between the 123 & 124 cars when they were mated up as one unit, given that the 123s were fitted with B4 bogies which surely would have provided them with a much superior ride over the 124s?
 

yorksrob

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And especially so if the buffet counter was still fitted serving a decent range of quality beers, pies and sausage rolls etc. :smile:


Indeed, what an unlikely hotch potch of vehicles! It must have also been quite interesting to compare the differences in ride quality between the 123 & 124 cars when they were mated up as one unit given that the 123s were fitted with B4 bogies which surely would have provided them with a much superior ride over the 124s?

Indeed. A scotch egg going through Settle junction could be very appealing.
 

hexagon789

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seem to remember that in 2nd there were no arm rests provided

Presumably so the compartments would seat eight as with Southern and Western Region Mk1 second class compartments.

It must have also been quite interesting to compare the differences in ride quality between the 123 & 124 cars when they were mated up as one unit, given that the 123s were fitted with B4 bogies which surely would have provided them with a much superior ride over the 124s?

You would imagine so, that's not to say the B4s were perfect, I seem to recall reading the Mk2d coaches rode rather poorly when first introduced despite the B4 bogies.

whereas the 123/124 power cars were fitted with 2x230 hp engines

They were derated to 200 hp at some point before the two fleets were merged.
 

Ash Bridge

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Presumably so the compartments would seat eight as with Southern and Western Region Mk1 second class compartments.



You would imagine so, that's not to say the B4s were perfect, I seem to recall reading the Mk2d coaches rode rather poorly when first introduced despite the B4 bogies.

If my memory is serving me correct about arms not being fitted then yes.

Never heard about the poor riding before and I'm not disputing what you say but one would have thought that BR would have ironed out any ride problems with the B4s fitted to the earlier mk2 variants several years before the aircon stock was introduced?
 

hexagon789

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Never heard about the poor riding before and I'm not disputing what you say but one would have thought that BR would have ironed out any ride problems with the B4s fitted to the earlier mk2 variants several years before the aircon stock was introduced

There's a bit about rough riding of the Mk2ds when first introduced in the Harris Mk2 coaching stock book if I remember correctly, I think that's where I read it.

Considering how prevalent the bogie was on mainline stock by then, I agree it's surprising. Perhaps the dampers or something were of a different design, I believe the 2fs had a different type to the 2es.

If my memory is serving me correct about arms not being fitted then yes.

The official diagram seems to omit armrests in second class but include them in first.
 
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Many pleasant memories of these. The rasp of the engines and the 'proper' interiors made them a much better experience than any other DMU's.
 

hexagon789

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No, but didn't LM and E/NE hauled Mk1 corridor stock have 3-a-side in 2nd?

Originally the Western and Southern Regions had eight per second class compartment (four-a-side), the other regions had six per compartment. The primary difference was the WR and SR had the armrests removed.

Of course vehicles were transferred between the regions and weren't always reconfigured.

In DMUs however, eight per second class compartment seems to have been the norm regardless of region.
 

AY1975

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No, but didn't LM and E/NE hauled Mk1 corridor stock have 3-a-side in 2nd?

Yes they did, but with armrests that you could lift up so they could seat 4-a-side if necessary.
 
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