Trans-Pennine DMU Evolution

[AY1975]

Footage of the 123s and 124s seems to be pretty rare, but there's a clip on YouTube of a 123 departing New Mills Central and the Class 40-hauled Great Yarmouth-Manchester arriving at www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr1IGBWK0qo (I suspect that most enthusiasts would have been far more interested in the Class 40 in those days, though!).

There's also a Rail Report on the then new Trans-Pennine DMUs in 1961 at www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyOpbHH9zQQ and a short cine film of a 124 passing Todmorden at www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODWozwXonvI

 

[yorksrob]

Footage of the 123s and 124s seems to be pretty rare, but there's a clip on YouTube of a 123 departing New Mills Central and the Class 40-hauled Great Yarmouth-Manchester arriving at www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr1IGBWK0qo (I suspect that most enthusiasts would have been far more interested in the Class 40 in those days, though!).

There's also a Rail Report on the then new Trans-Pennine DMUs in 1961 at www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyOpbHH9zQQ and a short cine film of a 124 passing Todmorden at www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODWozwXonvI

Some splendid views of Hull and Huddersfield stations in the olden days !

 

[Taunton]

Originally the Western and Southern Regions had eight per second class compartment (four-a-side), the other regions had six per compartment. The primary difference was the WR and SR had the armrests removed. Of course vehicles were transferred between the regions and weren't always reconfigured ... In DMUs however, eight per second class compartment seems to have been the norm regardless of region.

Swindon works built most of the "high end" dmus in the modernisation plan, from the original Scottish Inter-City 'white star' Inter-City units to the 4-car sets for the Western Region, which were the last dmus of that generation built. Just like they built much of the Mk 1 corridor stock for the WR, so they went for what they knew, 4-across. The upholsterers may even have used the same drawings.

Swindon also used liberal amounts of asbestos insulation, which is why hardly any of their output survives.

The Trans Pennine formation replicated the original Scottish unit formations. These appeared to have been built as normal 3-car sets, some motor units with proper end cabs and others with gangways and side cabs, but the ScR normally ran them as 6-car units with the full cab cars on the outside, the gangwayed motor units inside them, and the two trailers (one a buffet) in the middle, which is effectively how the Trans Pennine units were done. And towards the end they likewise removed the buffets, reducing to 5-car sets.

I believe a Trans Pennine unit was also assigned for a long while to a service at about 17.30 from Manchester Victoria to Blackpool, after a loco-hauled service at this time was withdrawn and replaced by local units, which led to many complaints.

They had normal mu controls, and it was quite common for one of the driving cars to be replaced by a local service car, always a Met-Cam one when I saw it.

 

[hexagon789]

Swindon also used liberal amounts of asbestos insulation, which is why hardly any of their output survives.

Indeed, thankfully a 126 has been preserved and beautifully restored.

The Trans Pennine formation replicated the original Scottish unit formations. These appeared to have been built as normal 3-car sets, some motor units with proper end cabs and others with gangways and side cabs, but the ScR normally ran them as 6-car units with the full cab cars on the outside, the gangwayed motor units inside them, and the two trailers (one a buffet) in the middle, which is effectively how the Trans Pennine units were done. And towards the end they likewise removed the buffets, reducing to 5-car sets.

When the 79xxx InterCity units started out on the WR, I believe they drew up plans for a nine-car set (two two-cars with the leading motors outermost with a three car formed of two intermediate motors sandwiching a trailer).

The later build 126s were left in motor-trailer-motor formation but they regularly operated as three car sets anyway. I believe the E&G sets went over to permanent six-car formation of leading motor, intermediate motor-trailer-trailer-intermediate motor-leading motor, fairly soon after introduction. I believe this arrangement came about as if a leading motor failed it could be easily removed leaving a driving car leading now, plus if a motor cars engines failed, its horns were inoperable so couldn't continue to lead the train. Furthermore the original InterCity sets did not have multi-working jumpers on the leading ends so a motor car could not be added onto the front of one.

 

[Taunton]

I believe the E&G sets went over to permanent six-car formation of leading motor, intermediate motor-trailer-trailer-intermediate motor-leading motor, fairly soon after introduction.

Different procedures in different regions. The original Edinburgh-Glasgow cars were actually regarded as loose, and were shunted around at Leith Walk depot each day (for which one of the little North British 0-4-0 shunters was allocated, even to the extent of taking cars down to the Abbeyhill triangle to turn them) like carriages to give the desired formation. The ER and NER tried to keep common types together, though mixed formations were regular, the LMR was better. The WR kept at least the motor cars together as delivered very long term, for a good number of the sets through their whole life, but their trailers were mixed around - probably on different works schedules. The WR also ran quite a number of their apparently 3-car sets as 2-cars, on routes with low demand rather than those requiring higher power-weight ratios, and a number of 3-car batches had a reduced number of trailers ordered. When dieselised, Taunton-Minehead was always Bristol-based 3-car sets, while Taunton-Barnstaple, leaving from the adjacent bay, was always Plymouth-based 2-car units without trailers.

 

[hexagon789]

Different procedures in different regions. The original Edinburgh-Glasgow cars were actually regarded as loose, and were shunted around at Leith Walk depot each day (for which one of the little North British 0-4-0 shunters was allocated, even to the extent of taking cars down to the Abbeyhill triangle to turn them) like carriages to give the desired formation. The ER and NER tried to keep common types together, though mixed formations were regular, the LMR was better. The WR kept at least the motor cars together as delivered very long term, for a good number of the sets through their whole life, but their trailers were mixed around - probably on different works schedules. The WR also ran quite a number of their apparently 3-car sets as 2-cars, on routes with low demand rather than those requiring higher power-weight ratios, and a number of 3-car batches had a reduced number of trailers ordered. When dieselised, Taunton-Minehead was always Bristol-based 3-car sets, while Taunton-Barnstaple, leaving from the adjacent bay, was always Plymouth-based 2-car units without trailers.

There was a time when some ex-WR units first came North that they were based at Ayr (5 Intermediate DMBS and 2 TFKRB) and intermingled with the Ayrshire ones, there was a booked working for a time in the morning of an 8-car lash-up from Ayr to Glasgow St Enoch which consisted of two ex-WR X2s and two Ayrshire 3-car sets.

These was split into a 3 and a 5-car set at Glasgow. The five-car with its higher power-to-weight ratio would work the somewhat hilly North Johnstone route via Kilbarchan and Kilbirnie.

There was also a mixed Edinburgh-Dundee booking for a bit in the late 50s.

Certainly by the 60s the fleets seem to have been kept mostly separate with the E&G fixed six-car sets and Ayrshire having broadly fixed 3-car sets often linked up as 6 or 9-car formations but generally keeping the motor-trailer-motor formation within the individual units

 

[Taunton]

Ayrshire having broadly fixed 3-car sets often linked up as 6 or 9-car formations but generally keeping the motor-trailer-motor formation within the individual units

Here's a question you may know of. I'm aware it's not about Trans Pennine, we can get back to them soon.

As we may be aware, the Swindon units in Scotland were of the White Circle coupling code, different to the Blue Square one. I understood there were some differences in the air connections between units, as well as possibly some other variations.

In summer 1972 I went from Glasgow Central to Ayr. It was a normal 6-car Scottish Swindon Cross Country unit, but with one of the later built Derby Blue Square 3-car units that were used around Glasgow Central on the back. Apart from the fact that, at 9 cars, it was probably the longest dmu I ever rode on, how could two units with different coupling codes be permitted to run together. Was there some way in which these two could be connected and run together?

Yes, the units were still all together at Ayr, they hadn't just been buffered up at Glasgow and the Derby set was left behind ...

 

[hexagon789]

Was there some way in which these two could be connected and run together?

No I don't think so, maybe worked in tandem, a driver in the leading cab of each class of unit controlling the power with the lead driver controlling the braking? Not sure if that would be permitted in oassenger service to be honest.

Braking would be compatible (both twin-pipe vacuum) but the White Circle multi-system, as I understand it was quite different to Blue Square. Each power car in the White Circle family produced it's own air supply for control purposes which made them completely incompatible with other classes.

 

[hexagon789]

From the Railcar website - a brief description of the White Circle systems:

The system for the Edinburgh to Glasgow (and for a period WR as well) 79xxxx Swindon Inter-City units:

"The system evolved for the introduction of Swindon’s first Inter City vehicles, described as White Circle. These vehicles were distinct in having no through air pipe between vehicles, so each power car depended on producing it’s own air. These vehicles were unique in having no jumpers or sockets on the outer ends of the ‘leading’ type power cars, and jumpers from the 'intermediate' power cars were kept in the guards van. Jumpers were located on the buffer beam, an operating change as it was found that most coupling/uncoupling was done at track rather than platform level."

The Ayrshire batch which became the Class 126:

"The second batch of Class 126 vehicles delivered in 1958 were also given the White Circle system, although this was actually incompatible with the original White Circles. The 1956 vehicles were based on Yellow Circle with no through air pipe, while the 1959 ones were based on Blue Square with no through air pipe. Modifications had to be done to allow the sets to work together. On the second batch jumpers were fitted to the front of the ‘leading’ type vehicles. Apart from the lack of through air pipe, another contributing factor in these vehicles receiving their own code was their buckeye couplings and Pullman gangways."

Either batch would have been incompatible with a Blue Square unit though because of the nature of the air control system.

 

[RichmondCommu]

After the Inter-City DMUs had been withdrawn from the Little North Western route they too were replaced by class 31s, this time hauling mk1s as opposed to the Hope Valley route with its mk2s. We caught 31440 and its train on the way back home from Clapham in the late July of 1984. The loco hauled mk1s were in my view a slight improvement on the DMUs. I'd be interested to know how long the class 31s lasted on that service.

 

[randyrippley]

............ I'd be interested to know how long the class 31s lasted on that service.

Not long
From the mid-80's until Pacerisation Morecambe-Leeds was run using DMUs. From memory mainly 5-car sets made up of a 3-car Calder Valley set and a 2-car Metro-Camm power twin. Though often the 2-car set was locked out of use in the evening. Quite a lot of power - four out of five coaches powered
I have a feeling the trailer on the Calder Valley sets was actually borrowed from something else - weren't the original trailers all scrapped early?

 

[Taunton]

In teenage years we lived on Merseyside, where I encountered the T-P units to Manchester, but also the Calder Valley units which worked onward from Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Exchange every 2 hours. They always seemed a bit exotic, an NE dmu car in Exchange station. There were magazine articles at the time of their introduction which seemed to make out they were some higher specification, and part of the Trans Pennine overall improvement, but would I be right they were quite normal in their interior fitout along with the other Low Density cars.

Over at Manchester these were all more common, along with the NER Met-Cam units with the strange-looking 4-character headcode box up in the cab roof, which seemed to be chosen for these services over the hills.

 

[hexagon789]

In teenage years we lived on Merseyside, where I encountered the T-P units to Manchester, but also the Calder Valley units which worked onward from Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Exchange every 2 hours. They always seemed a bit exotic, an NE dmu car in Exchange station. There were magazine articles at the time of their introduction which seemed to make out they were some higher specification, and part of the Trans Pennine overall improvement, but would I be right they were quite normal in their interior fitout along with the other Low Density cars.

Over at Manchester these were all more common, along with the NER Met-Cam units with the strange-looking 4-character headcode box up in the cab roof, which seemed to be chosen for these services over the hills.

The 110 Calder Valley units had the usual 2+2 First, 2+3 Second arrangement but they had 180 hp Leyland Albion engines rather than the more common 150 hp ones.

They also had a fairly unique formation: DMBC-TSL-DMCL.

Seating was DMBC: 12/33, TSL: -/72, DMCL: 12/54.

 

[randyrippley]

The 110 Calder Valley units had the usual 2+2 First, 2+3 Second arrangement but they had 180 hp Leyland Albion engines rather than the more common 150 hp ones.

They also had a fairly unique formation: DMBC-TSL-DMCL.

Seating was DMBC: 12/33, TSL: -/72, DMCL: 12/54.

Wiki reckons the Calder Valley sets had Rolls Royce engines
Were they switched for BUT/Albion engines later? RR diesels weren't renowned for reliability

As for the interiors, in comfort terms they were way behind the Western Region's Cross Country sets. Much denser seating 3+2 vs 2+2, with closer seat depth

 

[Spartacus]

Wiki reckons the Calder Valley sets had Rolls Royce engines
Were they switched for BUT/Albion engines later? RR diesels weren't renowned for reliability

As for the interiors, in comfort terms they were way behind the Western Region's Cross Country sets. Much denser seating 3+2 vs 2+2, with closer seat depth

Maybe a bit of confusion? The Calder Valley 110s were, I'm sure, always fitted with 180hp RR units, however the 124s (as well as 123s and 128s) were fitted with 230hp Albion engines

 

[yorksrob]

After the Inter-City DMUs had been withdrawn from the Little North Western route they too were replaced by class 31s, this time hauling mk1s as opposed to the Hope Valley route with its mk2s. We caught 31440 and its train on the way back home from Clapham in the late July of 1984. The loco hauled mk1s were in my view a slight improvement on the DMUs. I'd be interested to know how long the class 31s lasted on that service.

Either way, they would have been like the Brighton Belle, compared to the crush loaded Merseyrail pacer complete with blocked toilet I had to endure on the route once

 

[RichmondCommu]

Either way, they would have been like the Brighton Belle, compared to the crush loaded Merseyrail pacer complete with blocked toilet I had to endure on the route once

I concur. Not that I've ever had the misfortune of travelling on a Merseyrail Pacer.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Over at Manchester these were all more common, along with the NER Met-Cam units with the strange-looking 4-character headcode box up in the cab roof, which seemed to be chosen for these services over the hills.

Were not these 4-character equipped Met-Cam units the ones that were also originally equipped with a pair Rolls Royce 180 engines per powercar, and which were later modified by removing the 2nd engine from each motored vehicle, I think they were designated Class 111? I agree that they did look rather strange with those headcode boxes.

 

[Welshman]

In teenage years we lived on Merseyside, where I encountered the T-P units to Manchester, but also the Calder Valley units which worked onward from Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Exchange every 2 hours. They always seemed a bit exotic, an NE dmu car in Exchange station. There were magazine articles at the time of their introduction which seemed to make out they were some higher specification, and part of the Trans Pennine overall improvement, but would I be right they were quite normal in their interior fitout along with the other Low Density cars.

Over at Manchester these were all more common, along with the NER Met-Cam units with the strange-looking 4-character headcode box up in the cab roof, which seemed to be chosen for these services over the hills.

The Calder Valley units were comprised of North Eastern sets, based at Bradford Hammerton St, and London Midland sets, based at Newton Heath.

The interior of the NE sets was very similar to other low density dmus, and as such a bit spartan for such comparatively-long distances. The LM sets had red upholstery instead of green, and curtains in 1st class!

Both, however, were luxurious compared with the dirty LMS coaches they replaced!

 

[delt1c]

Here's a question you may know of. I'm aware it's not about Trans Pennine, we can get back to them soon.

As we may be aware, the Swindon units in Scotland were of the White Circle coupling code, different to the Blue Square one. I understood there were some differences in the air connections between units, as well as possibly some other variations.

In summer 1972 I went from Glasgow Central to Ayr. It was a normal 6-car Scottish Swindon Cross Country unit, but with one of the later built Derby Blue Square 3-car units that were used around Glasgow Central on the back. Apart from the fact that, at 9 cars, it was probably the longest dmu I ever rode on, how could two units with different coupling codes be permitted to run together. Was there some way in which these two could be connected and run together?

Yes, the units were still all together at Ayr, they hadn't just been buffered up at Glasgow and the Derby set was left behind ...

The Swindon ~cross `country were Blue Star as were the Derby 107's

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

The Swindon ~cross `country were Blue Star as were the Derby 107's

But were class 120s used on the Ayr line in the Seventies? According to railcar.co.uk the Scottish examples were still in the north east at that time, not migrating south till the Eighties.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

I believe a Trans Pennine unit was also assigned for a long while to a service at about 17.30 from Manchester Victoria to Blackpool, after a loco-hauled service at this time was withdrawn and replaced by local units, which led to many complaints.

Not sure about that, although from memory there were two loco-hauled "club trains" to Blackpool North in the peaks, one a Class 40 and one a Class 47. This would be late Seventies I guess. However, there was also a through Manchester Victoria - Blackpool South semi-fast peak service which stabled overnight in the otherwise unused second platform at Blackpool South which was diagrammed for a Trans-Pennine unit, and which I always wanted to try out but sadly never did.

 

[delt1c]

But were class 120s used on the Ayr line in the Seventies? According to railcar.co.uk the Scottish examples were still in the north east at that time, not migrating south till the Eighties.

To my knowledge the 120' or Swindon Cross Country Units were confined to Aberdeen Inverness Service in early 70's . But origonal poster mentions Cross Country Units and 126's were not compatible with blue star units.

 

[hexagon789]

The Swindon ~cross `country were Blue Star as were the Derby 107's

Yes, indeed.

My apologies but I failed to notice the "Cross-Country" bit in the post.

But were class 120s used on the Ayr line in the Seventies? According to railcar.co.uk the Scottish examples were still in the north east at that time, not migrating south till the Eighties.

Some 120 vehicles were based at Ayr for a time I believe, though I had thought that was after the 126s were withdrawn.

Maybe a bit of confusion? The Calder Valley 110s were, I'm sure, always fitted with 180hp RR units, however the 124s (as well as 123s and 128s) were fitted with 230hp Albion engines

Yep, me not reading things properly. You're quite right the 110s had 180hp Rolls-Royce engines, the Leyland Albions were 230hp and fitted to units such as the 123 and 124s.

To my knowledge the 120' or Swindon Cross Country Units were confined to Aberdeen Inverness Service in early 70's . But origonal poster mentions Cross Country Units and 126's were not compatible with blue star units.

The orginal Swindon Inter-City units and their later Ayrshire 126 sisters were both White Circle. The orginal units had electrics based on the Yellow Circle system, the Ayrshire 126s electrics were based on the Blue Square system and were originally incompatible but modifications were made to allow both types to work in multiple (presumably soon after the 126s entered service on Ayrshire workings).

The Cravens 105s, Derby 107s and Swindon Cross-Country 120s were all Blue Square avd could work in multiple.

Both White Circle systems were completely incompatible with the Blue Square system because White Circle unit power cars produced their own independent air supply.

Hopefully I've clarified and corrected my above errors, I'm hopeless at proof-reading.

 

[RLBH]

Given the history of the Paxman ZH in the class 17, maybe it was just as well they weren't used in passenger stock

One can't help but wonder if they might have done better in their originally-designed role. Maybe the Rolls-Royce D series would have been a viable alternative on railcars?

The service actually left Birmingham in the opposite direction, and ran via Kidderminster, Worcester, Hereford and Newport. There might have been runs via Stratford as well, but this is the way I have always seen photos of them.

That's interesting; the whole affair predates me by several decades so I've only got second-hand accounts to go on. Certainly it seems like the Class 123s and later Class 120s ran over both routes.

Clacton 309

The 309s are, to my mind, basically an electric version of an Inter-City DMU. Supposedly they were planned for the ECML at one point, which of course suggests to me that they might have been suitable for the planned Birmingham-Liverpool-Manchester service once electrification took DMUs off the table.

The Trans Pennine formation replicated the original Scottish unit formations. These appeared to have been built as normal 3-car sets, some motor units with proper end cabs and others with gangways and side cabs, but the ScR normally ran them as 6-car units with the full cab cars on the outside, the gangwayed motor units inside them, and the two trailers (one a buffet) in the middle, which is effectively how the Trans Pennine units were done. And towards the end they likewise removed the buffets, reducing to 5-car sets.

It's interesting that the routes the Class 123/124/126 worked are basically those that Regional Railways put Class 158s on when they came along in the late 1980s. I suppose the makes the Class 158 the modern incarnation of the Swindon Inter-City DMU.

 

[Grumpy]

The LM sets had red upholstery instead of green,

Surely red and black vertical stripes?

 

[randyrippley]

One can't help but wonder if they might have done better in their originally-designed role. Maybe the Rolls-Royce D series would have been a viable alternative on railcars?

RollsRoyce didn't have much of a reputation for reliability for whatever they did supply for DMUs. And there were never a lot of Sentinel / Yorkshire diesel shunters sold - which I always assumed was due to lack of relliability.
As for the Paxman engine....if BR had agreed to steel crankcases things may have been different, but they insisted on alloy........and the rest is history

 

[edwin_m]

No I don't think so, maybe worked in tandem, a driver in the leading cab of each class of unit controlling the power with the lead driver controlling the braking? Not sure if that would be permitted in oassenger service to be honest.

I'm not aware of there ever being a problem with doing this - after all it was the only way of "multipling" steam locos! I used to commute on 101s from Fife to Edinburgh and on a couple of occasions they were driven in tandem with a class 20 on the front (probably due to one power car being dead).