Transfer of LNER HST 125s to East Midlands Railway (EMR)

[43096]

They run the same as any other EMR HST on the mml. Pathed as 110 max but it doesn't mean it can't do 125 running.

No, that’s the timing load. The actual timings need 125mph running and have done since the 125mph upgrade of the MML. The timing load/description has never been updated (there was a reason but can’t remember what it was).

 

[cactustwirly]

I don’t think this question has been asked before, but are the LNER sets timed for 125mph paths on the MML?

Yes the HST services have been timed for 125mph for a while now.
The timing load on RTT is wrong.

 

[CTS1990]

Thanks for your replies. I did wonder why RTT had them pathed at 110mph.

 

[Roast Veg]

Notably not the same timing load as the short sets, which can fit in much better with the 222s.

 

[Ladder23]

any news on what, and when the next sets will come to EMR?

 

[43096]

any news on what, and when the next sets will come to EMR?

NL56/57 are the next two - both at Neville Hill being prepared. As for when - after NL51, who knows.

 

[Ladder23]

NL56/57 are the next two - both at Neville Hill being prepared. As for when - after NL51, who knows.

thanks

 

[50039]

I’ve seen a few photos on Twitter lately - are the HSTs back to normal diagrams now?

 

[43055]

I’ve seen a few photos on Twitter lately - are the HSTs back to normal diagrams now?

Not a full service but more diagrams. The weekday diagrams are on the previous page and Weekends seem to be variable most likely due to engineering works. The weekend just gone there was none out on Saturday and a couple of sets out on Sunday.

 

[mic505]

Have anymore ex-LNER sets entered traffic yet? It seems to be taking too long getting the LNER sets in traffic imo?

 

[heedfan]

Have anymore ex-LNER sets entered traffic yet? It seems to be taking too long getting the LNER sets in traffic imo?

The ex-LNER sets need a rather significant amount of maintenance to bring them up to a satisfactory standard. The coaches are being brought up to spec at Neville Hill but as I say many of them require significant work. Not just cosmetic adaptations but repairs to make them fit for ongoing service. They really are a state.

EMR set aside a week to turn around each set for service but ultimately it is taking far, far longer. Remember that social distancing etc applies now so the job is likely be slowed even further than normal.

 

[43 302]

The ex-LNER sets need a rather significant amount of maintenance to bring them up to a satisfactory standard. The coaches are being brought up to spec at Neville Hill but as I say many of them require significant work. Not just cosmetic adaptations but repairs to make them fit for ongoing service. They really are a state.

EMR set aside a week to turn around each set for service but ultimately it is taking far, far longer. Remember that social distancing etc applies now so the job is likely be slowed even further than normal.

I wonder if the dispensation for the ex EMT sets will be extended. If not, perhaps EMR will have to adopt a similar strategy to GA in their run up to the deadline for the Mk3A sets; training crews on 321s. Although I'm not sure what stock they'd use.

 

[50039]

Not a full service but more diagrams. The weekday diagrams are on the previous page and Weekends seem to be variable most likely due to engineering works. The weekend just gone there was none out on Saturday and a couple of sets out on Sunday.

Thanks

 

[D365]

Have anymore ex-LNER sets entered traffic yet? It seems to be taking too long getting the LNER sets in traffic imo?

It‘s taking far longer than anticipated to refurbish all the Mk3 coaches. Look at the delays that Scotrail and CrossCountry experienced.

 

[43 302]

It‘s taking far longer than anticipated to refurbish all the Mk3 coaches. Look at the delays that Scotrail and CrossCountry experienced.

Yeah but these ones aren't being refurbished...

 

[WesternLancer]

The ex-LNER sets need a rather significant amount of maintenance to bring them up to a satisfactory standard. The coaches are being brought up to spec at Neville Hill but as I say many of them require significant work. Not just cosmetic adaptations but repairs to make them fit for ongoing service. They really are a state.

EMR set aside a week to turn around each set for service but ultimately it is taking far, far longer. Remember that social distancing etc applies now so the job is likely be slowed even further than normal.

You have to wonder, given the likelihood of reduced numbers of people on rail and absence of encouragement to travel if it's really worth rolling them out now. If DfT are insisting it will simply because they don't want to be embarrassed by a DDA U turn. It's hard to see it is worth the spend for what - 7 months use on a reduced timetable...might as well stick with the existing fleet - nice tho the red sets would have been for passengers given what many would see as better interior offer (I've always thought many MML passengers would think the Red HSTS WERE the brand new trains they had been told about!

 

[mic505]

Scotrail problems were mainly poor condition of the coaches, loss of skilled workers to Hitachi, different measurements per coach, under-estimating of the scale of work involved and an over-confident December 2019 project completion date. XC problems were mainly design issues with the new vestibules and poor quality of the work involved, which XC identified and was very unhappy.

 

[mic505]

Personally I'd use the existing 222's to bin the existing EMR sets as a back-up plan if the 30th July 2020 deadline is not met. However, some of the 222's are tatty and tired now lol.

 

[Nym]

Personally I'd use the existing 222's to bin the existing EMR sets as a back-up plan if the 30th July 2020 deadline is not met. However, some of the 222's are tatty and tired now lol.

And what will run the services that are now having their 222s stolen from them?

 

[D365]

Yeah but these ones aren't being refurbished...

By “refurbishment” I was inferring the mechanical overhaul.

 

[50039]

You have to wonder, given the likelihood of reduced numbers of people on rail and absence of encouragement to travel if it's really worth rolling them out now. If DfT are insisting it will simply because they don't want to be embarrassed by a DDA U turn. It's hard to see it is worth the spend for what - 7 months use on a reduced timetable...

Isn’t there an opposite view on this though - we will actually need more capacity to move fewer passengers whilst only using a percentage of the available seats? Even if passenger numbers increase to only half of ‘normal’ levels - social distancing would be an issue

 

[DB]

It is actually very hard to see how they can possibly meet the end of July deadline now, given that it's only two months away and so far they only have one of the ex-LNER sets in a usable condition.

 

[WesternLancer]

Personally I'd use the existing 222's to bin the existing EMR sets as a back-up plan if the 30th July 2020 deadline is not met. However, some of the 222's are tatty and tired now lol.

Yes, I find 222 interiors very tatty now, and far more tatty than the EMR HST sets in fact!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What I find interesting is because of the delays from December 19/January 20 to July 20 for service entry, this means all this work has been for trains that will work for EMR for all of five months before they are withdrawn. Is that such a worthy investment or should the ex EMT (admittedly less pleasant) sets just have been allowed to stagger on until December?

 

[WesternLancer]

Isn’t there an opposite view on this though - we will actually need more capacity to move fewer passengers whilst only using a percentage of the available seats? Even if passenger numbers increase to only half of ‘normal’ levels - social distancing would be an issue

I agree, but I can't see HM Govt wearing this for much longer - eg running a railway service with limited occupancy at vast subsidy for a small degree of necessary travel. As Treasury seeks to get the economy 'back to normal' some tough questions will be asked of departments - and I am sure they will find way to meet any desired lower occupancy levels by traditional 'rationing' of demand - ie jack up prices and ration via ending walk up railway (aren't LNER going reservation compulsory already?). They might even do things like issue railcards to certain 'key workers' etc to sweeten the pill. Ultimately govt only funds a rail network for a combination of social reasons and to facilitate UK economic activity (same for roads), and if they feel it is not needed to achieve that then they will scale back.

"Is your journey really necessary?" wartime mantra will come on big time - and thinking about some of the core passenger groups I see on Inter City trains:
Students and young people: "your college is delivering all the teaching on line, you don't need to travel"
Off peak retired passengers: "you are vulnerable group - you should not be traveling about - we're not subsidising that"
Office workers and business travel: "you have shown you can work adequately on-line / from home, keep doing that"

etc etc

OK I may be wrong but.....(but this is getting off topic)

 

[Merle Haggard]

I'm puzzled. The HST sets were in front line, long distance all-day use on EC until replaced by new trains very recently. There seemed to be no safety issues with them on EC; why do they suddenly need intense mechanical attention to remain in service on undemanding diagrams between Nottingham and London for another 7 months?

 

[LowLevel]

Yes, I find 222 interiors very tatty now, and far more tatty than the EMR HST sets in fact!

The EMR HSTs had a load of work done including an interior retrim, C4 bottom end overhaul and new windows fitting in anticipation of them being modified for continued short term operation. The Government decided late on that the ECML HSTs, which had been run down in anticipation of being scrapped, would be used instead, thus fairly recently overhauled carriages are being scrapped in favour of ones that require significant investment to make them fit for traffic.

Class 222 refurbishment wasn't in the EMT direct awards or the EMR franchise so here we are with them looking very tired - they've been in traffic for over 15 years and the flat cloth coverings look tired quickly anyway.

 

[heedfan]

I'm puzzled. The HST sets were in front line, long distance all-day use on EC until replaced by new trains very recently. There seemed to be no safety issues with them on EC; why do they suddenly need intense mechanical attention to remain in service on undemanding diagrams between Nottingham and London for another 7 months?

They were initially due to end service on the EC and accordingly maintenance was run down on them. Now that the service life is being extended they need to be brought back to an acceptable standard for that...having seen both the old EMT and the 'new' EMR HST sets I can assure you there is a significant difference between the condition of them.

 

[Domh245]

Presumably LNER have been fined by the ROSCOs for not handing the fleet back in a good state? It's not as if this was a surprise either, there was a few months between the announcement of the transfer and the withdrawals occurring, but rumours (and negotiations) will have obviously been going on even before this

 

[43096]

Presumably LNER have been fined by the ROSCOs for not handing the fleet back in a good state? It's not as if this was a surprise either, there was a few months between the announcement of the transfer and the withdrawals occurring, but rumours (and negotiations) will have obviously been going on even before this

It depends how hard the issues are to find on inspection. If they weren’t visible without a vehicle lift, then it’s unlikely to be found on ROSCO handback inspection.