Transfer of LNER HST 125s to East Midlands Railway (EMR)

[WesternLancer]

Also bear in mind an option to use shorter 222s in peaks, freeing up some units - which permits as many trains, using less carriages, esp if vaccine roll out deems social distancing is not so vital any more for example.

 

[Bald Rick]

Also bear in mind an option to use shorter 222s in peaks, freeing up some units - which permits as many trains, using less carriages, esp if vaccine roll out deems social distancing is not so vital any more for example.

That’s a racing certainty.

 

[Dave91131]

NL51/54/55 being the sets to go, again all Angel's.

Has NL54 even entered service yet?

If not, will it ever do so?

 

[43055]

Has NL54 even entered service yet?

If not, will it ever do so?

Not yet. Very likely that it won't now.

 

[43096]

Has NL54 even entered service yet?

If not, will it ever do so?

No and no.

 

[DB]

No and no.

How much work have they put into it?

 

[43055]

How much work have they put into it?

NL55 came out on the 27th December so around then or before probably.

Talking about NL55 it is on it's last day today so only lasted 22 days in service with EMR!

Possibly a blue set off to scrap tomorrow:

Realtime Trains - 5Z98 1040 Gascoigne Wood Sdgs Gbrf to Newport Docks (Simsgroup)

 

[WesternLancer]

NL55 came out on the 27th December so around then or before probably.

Talking about NL55 it is on it's last day today so only lasted 22 days in service with EMR!

Possibly a blue set off to scrap tomorrow:

Realtime Trains - 5Z98 1040 Gascoigne Wood Sdgs Gbrf to Newport Docks (Simsgroup)

Probably an MP needs to ask the minister what the budget was for getting the red sets into service....(a sum which could have been put towards electrification I guess)

 

[43096]

Probably an MP needs to ask the minister what the budget was for getting the red sets into service....(a sum which could have been put towards electrification I guess)

Could the same be achieve with an FoI request?

 

[WesternLancer]

Could the same be achieve with an FoI request?

Probably, good point (unless it can be deemed 'commercially confidential' which then might apply to anyone asking it)

 

[Andy Pacer]

So my former regular commuter train 1C11 is now Meridian rather than HST then ?

 

[43055]

So my former regular commuter train 1C11 is now Meridian rather than HST then ?

Yes it's a 222 now.

 

[Merle Haggard]

An evening St Pancras Corby service was worked by one of the ex G.C. sets until 11th December last; after that, it was worked by an ex L.N.E.R. set, such as NL55. The ex G.C. sets provided a high level of accommodation for the passenger.
The railway industry has often been criticised for wasteful behaviour in the past, but to put some much effort into replacing one fleet of trains with another very nearly identical one (slightly more acceptable for PRM requirements, but inferior in other respects) for service for 21 days must be unique and historic.
Can there be a defence?

 

[Domh245]

Can there be a defence?

Covid-19 popping up and decimating rail demand not long after contracts were signed and plans put into motion is fairly good as far as defences go.

 

[MissPWay]

An evening St Pancras Corby service was worked by one of the ex G.C. sets until 11th December last; after that, it was worked by an ex L.N.E.R. set, such as NL55. The ex G.C. sets provided a high level of accommodation for the passenger.
The railway industry has often been criticised for wasteful behaviour in the past, but to put some much effort into replacing one fleet of trains with another very nearly identical one (slightly more acceptable for PRM requirements, but inferior in other respects) for service for 21 days must be unique and historic.
Can there be a defence?

You’d have to ask the DFT.

 

[DB]

Covid-19 popping up and decimating rail demand not long after contracts were signed and plans put into motion is fairly good as far as defences go.

It's really not - even for a few more months it still wouldn't have been a good use of money, and this was hardly unpredictable either.

Contracts are one thing - spending a load of money on work to get them into a usable condition for just a few months' use is another entirely.

 

[WesternLancer]

They (DfT) should have juts taken the political 'hit' and extended the derogations on the existing EMR HST fleet through to May and they could have done that at no cost at all.
They could have worked out how much work may have been needed on the ex LNER sets by simply asking the team managing the HST refurbs for Scotrail - which was under way at the time.

It all smacks of classic case of making a decisions in a meeting in whitehall instead of taking the decision at railway management level.

But I agree they had probably signed the contracts well before covid impact had even been thought of, let alone thought about the consequences of. Contracts should have had get out clauses when condition and repair cost issues discovered...

 

[DB]

They could have worked out how much work may have been needed on the ex LNER sets by simply asking the team managing the HST refurbs for Scotrail - which was under way at the time.

Not really - the Scotrail fleet came from a different source (GWR) and the condition may well not have been comparable. Also, the spec was completely different - Scotrail were having them modified for longer-term use, not just patched up as a temporary stopgap.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I am also puzzled that the LNER HSTs were considered safe to operate when on the East Coast but, when transferred to EMR, they immediately required so much work.

 

[LowLevel]

I am also puzzled that the LNER HSTs were considered safe to operate when on the East Coast but, when transferred to EMR, they immediately required so much work.

They were increasingly unreliable with things like air leaks and driver guard comms faults becoming very regular - they were being maintained to an expected point of disposal. Further storage did them no favours at all either with the doors jamming up and ceasing to work reliably. If a rail vehicle is due on an exam cycle to have a major replacement of for example the air system then if you're only running it for another few months rather than several years and you accept the risk of additional failure in the meantime then it isn't unsafe but the asset will just degrade further.

Then when it came to COVID it made it a nightmare to do the necessary rectification work.

It was a stupid political decision with hindsight to throw away the MML sets for such a short period of operation when they had just received life extending C4 (below solebar) and C6 (above solebar) exams only to drive them into preservation or the scrapyard full functional.

 

[WesternLancer]

They were increasingly unreliable with things like air leaks and driver guard comms faults becoming very regular - they were being maintained to an expected point of disposal. Further storage did them no favours at all either with the doors jamming up and ceasing to work reliably. If a rail vehicle is due on an exam cycle to have a major replacement of for example the air system then if you're only running it for another few months rather than several years and you accept the risk of additional failure in the meantime then it isn't unsafe but the asset will just degrade further.

Then when it came to COVID it made it a nightmare to do the necessary rectification work.

It was a stupid political decision with hindsight to throw away the MML sets for such a short period of operation when they had just received life extending C4 (below solebar) and C6 (above solebar) exams only to drive them into preservation or the scrapyard full functional.

Good and clear explanation, thanks.

 

[Spirit555]

66705 and 66750 with barriers 6393 & 6394 took 44041 42152 42157 42156 42155 40700 41069 41079 42384 to Newport today. Formation not in train order by the way.

Mark

 

[47444]

NL53 went to scrap at Newport yesterday as well as NL51 having its last day in traffic. There is also talk of 6 power cars being withdrawn and will be stored at Barrow Hill.

More Stock for Scrap.

47739 heads a rake of ex HST coaching stock destined for the scrap yard. Running as 5Z48 Gascoigne Wood to Newport,the train is seen here at Highnam,Gloucester. Sandwiched between 47739 and 47727 are vehicles 6393,41090,41044,40737,42127,42063,42064,42065,44045 and 6394. Taken in some typical...

www.flickr.com

 

[fgwrich]

They were increasingly unreliable with things like air leaks and driver guard comms faults becoming very regular - they were being maintained to an expected point of disposal. Further storage did them no favours at all either with the doors jamming up and ceasing to work reliably. If a rail vehicle is due on an exam cycle to have a major replacement of for example the air system then if you're only running it for another few months rather than several years and you accept the risk of additional failure in the meantime then it isn't unsafe but the asset will just degrade further.

Then when it came to COVID it made it a nightmare to do the necessary rectification work.

It was a stupid political decision with hindsight to throw away the MML sets for such a short period of operation when they had just received life extending C4 (below solebar) and C6 (above solebar) exams only to drive them into preservation or the scrapyard full functional.

You also have to remember that, as part of the deal to provide the new fleet for East Coast, Hitachi took over the control of the maintenance of the East Coast fleet. Maintaining 40 year old HSTs when their shiny new IET Fleet were on the way rather meant that the older fleet took a hit - in both maintenance and general care. It was quite noticeable in their last year of service how patched up the EC HST fleet became.

Asking a fleet of fairly tired and uncared for Mk3s to perform reliably after a period of storage certainly was going to be nothing short of a tall order, and with many items like the door step boards requiring a near fleet wide replacement after an accident has rather cost all the parties involved quite badly (EMR, Porterbrook & DfT).

 

[WesternLancer]

You also have to remember that, as part of the deal to provide the new fleet for East Coast, Hitachi took over the control of the maintenance of the East Coast fleet. Maintaining 40 year old HSTs when their shiny new IET Fleet were on the way rather meant that the older fleet took a hit - in both maintenance and general care. It was quite noticeable in their last year of service how patched up the EC HST fleet became.

Asking a fleet of fairly tired and uncared for Mk3s to perform reliably after a period of storage certainly was going to be nothing short of a tall order, and with many items like the door step boards requiring a near fleet wide replacement after an accident has rather cost all the parties involved quite badly (EMR, Porterbrook & DfT).

very good point

 

[43096]

You also have to remember that, as part of the deal to provide the new fleet for East Coast, Hitachi took over the control of the maintenance of the East Coast fleet. Maintaining 40 year old HSTs when their shiny new IET Fleet were on the way rather meant that the older fleet took a hit - in both maintenance and general care. It was quite noticeable in their last year of service how patched up the EC HST fleet became.

Asking a fleet of fairly tired and uncared for Mk3s to perform reliably after a period of storage certainly was going to be nothing short of a tall order, and with many items like the door step boards requiring a near fleet wide replacement after an accident has rather cost all the parties involved quite badly (EMR, Porterbrook & DfT).

I doubt it has cost Porterbrook (or indeed Angel, who own 6 of the sets transferred) anything. Porterbrook will probably have benefited as the original fleet remained on lease far longer than the original plan of May 2020.

They were increasingly unreliable with things like air leaks and driver guard comms faults becoming very regular - they were being maintained to an expected point of disposal. Further storage did them no favours at all either with the doors jamming up and ceasing to work reliably. If a rail vehicle is due on an exam cycle to have a major replacement of for example the air system then if you're only running it for another few months rather than several years and you accept the risk of additional failure in the meantime then it isn't unsafe but the asset will just degrade further.

Then when it came to COVID it made it a nightmare to do the necessary rectification work.

There was far more work involved that what you state. There has been substantial amounts of corrosion that has required rectification, as well as electrical faults and multiple doors needing replacement on some sets.

It was a stupid political decision with hindsight to throw away the MML sets for such a short period of operation when they had just received life extending C4 (below solebar) and C6 (above solebar) exams only to drive them into preservation or the scrapyard full functional.

There was a far simpler solution available had they wanted to gain slightly better PRM compliance. The PIS screens fitted to the ex-LNER sets could have been fitted to the existing sets, and some of the ex-GWR TSDs stored at Long Marston could have been been reinstated to provide PRM toilets. Even if they had needed similar work to the ex-LNER sets, that's nine vehicles requiring attention rather than an entire fleet.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I doubt it has cost Porterbrook (or indeed Angel, who own 6 of the sets transferred) anything. Porterbrook will probably have benefited as the original fleet remained on lease far longer than the original plan of May 2020.


There was far more work involved that what you state. There has been substantial amounts of corrosion that has required rectification, as well as electrical faults and multiple doors needing replacement on some sets.


There was a far simpler solution available had they wanted to gain slightly better PRM compliance. The PIS screens fitted to the ex-LNER sets could have been fitted to the existing sets, and some of the ex-GWR TSDs stored at Long Marston could have been been reinstated to provide PRM toilets. Even if they had needed similar work to the ex-LNER sets, that's nine vehicles requiring attention rather than an entire fleet.

I don’t believe using ex GWR stock in the full length MML sets would have been an easy option - all ex GWR stock is fitted with SDO and as such grandfather rights for those vehicles to call at short platforms without SDO would have expired. The only way round this would have been to fit SDO to the entire sets.

All the solutions to keep on using mk3 sets on the MML post the PRM deadline started to get very messy!

I believe the ex GC sets had SDO fitted anyway so using the ex GWR TRFB’s in these eany

 

[43096]

I don’t believe using ex GWR stock in the full length MML sets would have been an easy option - all ex GWR stock is fitted with SDO and as such grandfather rights for those vehicles to call at short platforms without SDO would have expired. The only way round this would have been to fit SDO to the entire sets.

All the solutions to keep on using mk3 sets on the MML post the PRM deadline started to get very messy!

I believe the ex GC sets had SDO fitted anyway so using the ex GWR TRFB’s in these eany

If the DfT can agree dispensations for PRM compliance, then something similar could be done for SDO.

All the alternatives to what has actually been done would have been easier. As usual, DfT took the most stupid and expensive option.

 

[fgwrich]

If the DfT can agree dispensations for PRM compliance, then something similar could be done for SDO.

All the alternatives to what has actually been done would have been easier. As usual, DfT took the most stupid and expensive option.

Come on, you don't expect them to take the easy and simple option now do you!

I suppose advantage the ex EC sets would have had would have also been the fitment of the seat reservation system. Not that, in the current climate, it's needed. And now heading for the bin after what, less than a year, of fitment?

 

[Mack91]

From what I understand 43302 is still being used by EMR; is it getting a retro repaint for it's last days in service before transfer to the Railway Museum?

https://mobile.twitter.com/HiPa_IC125_/status/1352588371428847617