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Transgender sporting question

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najaB

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Sporting, not spotting!

So, it's been almost a week without a thread where people can display their transphobia (by which I'm saying don't bring it here). Genuine question: in gender-separated sports, do you think that trans people should compete based on birth sex or gender identity? I can see the argument for basing it on birth sex since, at a base level, the body will have characteristics more closely aligned to the birth sex, however hormone therapy, etc. will often result in an appearance closer to the gender identity.

This came to mind when I caught a few seconds of a news story about a trans girl (m to f) who wasn't being allowed to play girl's football because she was born a boy.
 
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Up_Tilt_390

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Oh, I have a bad feeling about this...

Honestly, this one seems a bit tricky. I mean we originally decided to separate genders presumably because women are the weaker sex on average without the factors of conditioning. Now though I'm not sure there's even a lot of reasons to segregate since we DO have conditioning and don't really develop our muscles from an early age without it (this mind sound trivial, but soon as we are forced into chairs we lose our ability to squat naturally, so I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest we get weaker when we stop using our muscles). If anything, it should be based more on weight requirements since I imagine a feeble man would stand less of a chance in Rugby game than a stronger woman who's conditioned herself. Now unfortunately I don't know enough about sports, so I can't be sure how right I am about why we segregated in the first place. I might be completely wrong.

But assuming that I'm right then perhaps it was a bit of an unfair rejection. Yes, the transgirl was born a male, and judging by chromosomes still technically is, but gender isn't the same as sex, and really us humans gave nature the middle finger a long time ago, so if this person went through all the phases of gender reassignment then she's now known as a transwoman. Not a cisgendered woman, no, and to some not a real one, but really I couldn't care less. I don't associate with any kind of woman really, so it doesn't bother me at all. Had I ran a team I'd go by weight requirements rather than gender or sex. Again, this second paragraph assumes I was right about what I said above in regards to why we segregated sports in the first place. But good lord you haven't half opened a can of worms here!
 

najaB

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In the news story I saw I don't think the girl was old enough to have had any gender-reassignment surgery.
 

Warwick

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On the naughty step again.
"So, it's been almost a week where people can display their transphobia". Strangely enough, it's been almost a week where people can display their hang-ups which is nothing to do with railways. There have always been boys who want to be girls and girls who want to be boys. It was ever thus, get over it. I don't have a problem with it.
 

najaB

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There have always been boys who want to be girls and girls who want to be boys. It was ever thus, get over it. I don't have a problem with it.
Oh, I agree totally, the point of this thread wasn't to start the whole debate of the 'rights and wrongs', it's a genuine question. I can see both sides of the argument and was curious what others thought.
 

AlterEgo

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"So, it's been almost a week where people can display their transphobia". Strangely enough, it's been almost a week where people can display their hang-ups which is nothing to do with railways. There have always been boys who want to be girls and girls who want to be boys. It was ever thus, get over it. I don't have a problem with it.

But that wasn’t the question. The question is about whether transgender people should compete in sports according to their birth gender. They should.
 

takno

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It increasingly seems to be coming down to the qualification being on amounts of naturally occurring testosterone in the body. The reasons for splitting by sex historically come down to either historic notions of decency or the basic physical differences meaning that women largely struggle to compete.

I'd say for any given sport if the reasons for not having mixed games are "decency" then the sport might as well go mixed. If it's for competitive reasons then you need some classification system which reflects the differences which make it harder for women to compete. Testosterone is probably as good as a measure of this as anything else. If keeping the gender labels is causing problems you could probably explicitly remove mention of gender and make the measure the qualifying category in the same way that boxers are categorised by weight. Either way it's probably worth playing kids sports mixed for as long as possible to minimise the difference which are down to poorer early training etc.
 

scott118

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Caster Semenya - https://www.outsideonline.com/2198906/caster-semenya-debate
...At the center of the current dispute is South African middle-distance runner Caster Semenya. This is understandably not a position Semenya wants to be in, and she has been made to suffer largely because of her competitive success. When Semenya was 18, she won the gold medal in the 800 meters at the 2009 International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) World Championships. Her winning time of 1:55.45 was more than eight seconds faster than her best time from the previous year—an astounding progression by the standards of elite-level athletics. This meteoric improvement (and, most likely, Caster’s distinctly muscled physique) then prompted the IAAF to request that Semenya undergo a sex-verification test, which allegedly revealed that she had three times the amount testosterone typically expected in female athletes...
not quite trans gender, however..
 
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madannie77

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This came to mind when I caught a few seconds of a news story about a trans girl (m to f) who wasn't being allowed to play girl's football because she was born a boy.

I know nothing about the news story you mention, but if the girl was under 16 years old then there is nothing to stop her playing for any team (in England, anyway)

According to the FA's Policy on Trans People in Football (a link to which can be found on this page)

"any person playing football in the age ranges Under 7 to Under 16 may play in a match involving boys and girls, without restriction. There are therefore no conditions regarding any individual playing in a match under their reassigned/affirmed gender in these age ranges."

Aged 16 or over the eligibility of a trans person to play in their affirmed gender is decided on a case by case basis. The decision is based primarily on hormone levels and medical records.
 
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AlterEgo

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I know nothing about the news story you mention, but if the girl was under 16 years old then there is nothing to stop her playing for any team (in England, anyway)

According to the FA's Policy on Trans People in Football (a link to which can be found on this page)

"any person playing football in the age ranges Under 7 to Under 16 may play in a match involving boys and girls, without restriction. There are therefore no conditions regarding any individual playing in a match under their reassigned/affirmed gender in these age ranges."

Aged 16 or over the eligibility of a trans person to play in their affirmed gender is decided on a case by case basis. The decision is based primarily on hormone levels and medical records.

You’ve misread, surely?

The FA says that trans people of that age may play, without restriction, in any *mixed* game.

A trans person cannot simply pick between a male or female team at will.
 

madannie77

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You could well be right there.

I am reading it such that all under-16 football is mixed rather than some being single sex (not helped by my quick reading of the FA rule book which does not seem to mention single sex games for this age range, although I am probably missing something obvious).

I also note that the copy of the Trans Policy I downloaded states under-16 whereas the one I linked to above states under-18, so changes have been made at some point in the recent past.

I have no time and patience to look further tonight as the numbering/lettering of individual clauses and sub clauses of the FA rules seem to change year on year and I am getting confused.
 

Bromley boy

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Sporting, not spotting!

So, it's been almost a week without a thread where people can display their transphobia (by which I'm saying don't bring it here). Genuine question: in gender-separated sports, do you think that trans people should compete based on birth sex or gender identity? I can see the argument for basing it on birth sex since, at a base level, the body will have characteristics more closely aligned to the birth sex, however hormone therapy, etc. will often result in an appearance closer to the gender identity.

This came to mind when I caught a few seconds of a news story about a trans girl (m to f) who wasn't being allowed to play girl's football because she was born a boy.

They should compete based on birth sex/gender. Which are likely one and the same, subsequent gender dysphoria aside.

No doubt that’s the “wrong” answer to a very loaded question.
 

AlterEgo

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You could well be right there.

I am reading it such that all under-16 football is mixed rather than some being single sex (not helped by my quick reading of the FA rule book which does not seem to mention single sex games for this age range, although I am probably missing something obvious).

I also note that the copy of the Trans Policy I downloaded states under-16 whereas the one I linked to above states under-18, so changes have been made at some point in the recent past.

I have no time and patience to look further tonight as the numbering/lettering of individual clauses and sub clauses of the FA rules seem to change year on year and I am getting confused.

Only a very small minority of under-16 football is played in mixed teams. Therefore the opportunities for trans children to participate are fairly limited.

Nearly all football is gendered.
 

Bromley boy

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Why 'subsequent'? Gender dysphoria can be evident from very early.

Are you aware of any new born babies diagnosed with the condition? No? Me neither.

Therefore, I would suggest it is a condition that develops subsequently to birth.

It is a delusional condition, whereby a person of a particular sex (and commensurate gender) identifies with the opposite gender and wishes to live as such.

In some cases they have their physical sexual characteristics altered, in order to assist their identification with the opposite sex/gender.

I have no problem, in principle, with people suffering from said disorder living according to thier chosen gender, should they wish to do so, in order to satisfy their delusion.

I do have an issue with people retrospectively changing their birth certificates to alter their birth sex, which is a matter of biological and historical fact.

Therefore, in answer to the original question, I do have a problem with trans gender athletes competing with athletes of the opposite biological sex. Simply because biological sex lends an advantage to sporting performance (as men tend to be bigger and stronger than women)...
 
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Bromley boy

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This came to mind when I caught a few seconds of a news story about a trans girl (m to f) who wasn't being allowed to play girl's football because she was born a boy.

In specific answer to this, no. A “trans girl”, who is actually a boy, should not be allowed to play girls’ football. The fact is they are not biologically male.

Much the same as my current squeeze would double take if I as a 6”3, powerfully built, 90kg male (complete with beard) was to join her womens’ netball team.

There is nothing remotely controversial about this question to 99% of the UK population.
 

Bromley boy

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I don't know many newborn babies that want to play sport either. So 'subsequent' to nothing, as far as the current discussion is concerned.

I asked if you were aware of any new born babies diagnosed with gender dysphoria. I didn’t ask about new born babies playing sport.

It's no more delusional than your belief you are a man.

No? I was born male, raised male, I have male genitals. I’m fascinated.

Please enlighten me how my belief that I’m a man is delusional.

EDIT: I enjoy a great deal of satisfaction and amusement from these forums. Mostly around operational matters, as a train driver who (obviously) works in the industry.

But being told my knowledge that I’m a bloke is a delusion is a whole new level of utter madness, and amusement, in equal measure.
 
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tony_mac

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I asked if you were aware of any new born babies diagnosed with gender dysphoria. I didn’t ask about new born babies playing sport.
It is just as daft a question - how is a newborn baby going to express how they perceive their gender?

The 'biologically' male / female is not as simple as you like to think. You will be aware that male and female brains tend to be different - these include noticeable differences in the actual structure of the brain.
This different development occurs as the result of lots of complex genetic and chemical signals (including maternal hormones) there is no single signal that determines if the brain will develop to be 'male' or 'female', there are hundreds, and they may not all say the same thing. In reality, everyone has a unique brain structure, with varying amounts of traits that tend to occur in male or female brains.

Some people with male sex organs will develop brains that have quite a different structure to other 'male' brains, and may have far more in common with 'female' brains. And vice-versa, and all sorts of things in-between. I don't think that means they are all 'delusional'.
 

Bletchleyite

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Sporting, not spotting!

So, it's been almost a week without a thread where people can display their transphobia (by which I'm saying don't bring it here). Genuine question: in gender-separated sports, do you think that trans people should compete based on birth sex or gender identity? I can see the argument for basing it on birth sex since, at a base level, the body will have characteristics more closely aligned to the birth sex, however hormone therapy, etc. will often result in an appearance closer to the gender identity.

This came to mind when I caught a few seconds of a news story about a trans girl (m to f) who wasn't being allowed to play girl's football because she was born a boy.

That is a very interesting debate, because often those splits are because there are genetic differences between males and females that cause different aptitude for the sports concerned, and so the split is actually there to provide a level playing field (i.e. the whole "equity vs equality" thing).

Running is a very good example of this - because men evolved to be hunter gatherers and women to be carers, even though we quite rightly don't recognise those roles in society any more, men are built to run faster than women - so a woman has to do a lot more training to run a given race at time X:XX than a man does. How it's split does depend on the race - track races tend to be fully segregated, whereas something like a marathon just has everyone running together and a pile of stats which are split on lots of different things, be that age, gender or whatever - but there is recognition of that.

Therefore in running, a female to male transsexual would have a significant disadvantage, and a male to female transsexual a significant advantage. The former is bad for the individual, the latter is bad for others in the race. Both are a little unfair.

Hmm. Not sure of the right answer here.

Of course where the split is purely for tradition, "the one you identify with" is the obvious answer. But often it isn't, and that's why those splits have persisted in the way they have.
 

Bromley boy

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It is just as daft a question - how is a newborn baby going to express how they perceive their gender?

The 'biologically' male / female is not as simple as you like to think. You will be aware that male and female brains tend to be different - these include noticeable differences in the actual structure of the brain.
This different development occurs as the result of lots of complex genetic and chemical signals (including maternal hormones) there is no single signal that determines if the brain will develop to be 'male' or 'female', there are hundreds, and they may not all say the same thing. In reality, everyone has a unique brain structure, with varying amounts of traits that tend to occur in male or female brains.

Some people with male sex organs will develop brains that have quite a different structure to other 'male' brains, and may have far more in common with 'female' brains. And vice-versa, and all sorts of things in-between. I don't think that means they are all 'delusional'.

I don’t dispute that there are biological factors at play.

But the fact of the matter is that a biological man who believes he is “really” a woman, or vice versa, is labouring under a form of delusion, whether caused by biology or otherwise.

I have absolutely no issue with someone living according to their assumed gender, but the idea that gender can be completely disassociated from biological sex is ludicrous double-think.

Unfortunately it is also now a PC identity politics hobby horse where a person can apparently choose/vary their gender as they wish and the rest of society is expected to accommodate that, for fear of causing offence.

Athletics is a good example of how this idea has been taken too far, since it primarily relates to physical prowess which is linked directly to biological sex rather than gender.
 

Bletchleyite

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If keeping the gender labels is causing problems you could probably explicitly remove mention of gender and make the measure the qualifying category

The trouble there is that there aren't any recognised categories for many sports - such as running. You can split the results down in various ways e.g. age and gender, but there is no particular logic to who competes - you just do the one you're good at. But there *is* a difference in natural aptitude from male to female for evolutionary reasons, and not recognising that does cause unfairness.
 

Bletchleyite

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In reality, everyone has a unique brain structure, with varying amounts of traits that tend to occur in male or female brains.

I was going to say that. In particular it does seem that quite a lot of gay blokes (not all of them by any means) seem to have much more of a female like "empathetic" side than straight blokes. Though that could simply be for societal reasons - straight blokes are often pressured to act masculine, even if that doesn't work for them, whereas that pressure isn't there in the same way for openly gay blokes.

In reality, on the emotional side, it's probably best to think of everyone as just "people" with their varying traits. The problem is that the physical side when it comes to sport doesn't work that way unless you want to give one gender (mostly males) a free advantage in that sport.
 

AlterEgo

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Don't forget, being bigger can be a disadvantage in certain sports.

It can, but in almost every single sport men end up, on average, more capable. I can think of no individual sports where women are superior than men and no team sports where the women's teams are superior to the men's teams. I am sure there's the possibility of one or two exceptions but that would be about it.

Taking the example of football: Personally I am a huge advocate of women's football. It's a great game with healthy role models for young women and girls. It's good to watch. However it is, fundamentally, a different game to the men's game and the two shouldn't normally be compared if you want to appreciate it (I'm about to compare them now!).

I watch a fair bit of women's football. There are a number of differences, some cultural, some due to the fact the game is in its infancy compared to the men's game, and some biological. Remember the game is played on the same size pitch as the men's game, with the same size goals.

Biological:
The game is much slower overall. Players run slower and react slower.
Players have less endurance.
Goalkeepers are smaller. In fact all the players are smaller on average.
The ball cannot be kicked as hard or as far.
Players generally have breasts which raises the centre of gravity of your average player, which affects the speed and effectiveness of players turning under pressure.
Players are weaker.
Players may become pregnant, leading to extended absences and potentially reduced performance upon their return.
The menstrual cycle may affect the performance of some players.
Instinctive decision-making is often poor.

Cultural:
The game is more tolerant of physical contact.
Players exhibit a lower level of severe dissent towards the referee.
Players are more receptive to coaching and the application of tactics.
Women generally start learning the game, and playing seriously, later than men.
There are far more unforced errors caused by a lack of concentration than poor skills.

"Infancy of the game":
There are not enough qualified and experienced women coaches/managers yet.
The quality of some coaching is poor, defending is usually disorganised and the standard of goalkeeping is particularly weak.
Technical skills are usually well-applied and some women players have excellent first touch, close control, and ability to play incisive passes.

Just a brief overview and all my own opinion.

Men indisputably have a significant advantage over women in any given scenario. I am a male footballer and the advantages I have are not because I "identify as a man", they're because I am actually, a man, with all the biological attributes that brings. The World Cup holders in the women's game are the USA, and I have every confidence, everything else being equal, that a non-league men's team would comfortably beat them in a match.

People who were born as male but identify as female should not under any circumstances play in the women's game. It's not fair.
 

najaB

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No? I was born male, raised male, I have male genitals. I’m fascinated.

Please enlighten me how my belief that I’m a man is delusional.
As I said, gender dysphoria is no more of a delusion than your belief that you're a man.
I have absolutely no issue with someone living according to their assumed gender, but the idea that gender can be completely disassociated from biological sex is ludicrous double-think.
You know you are a man. Is it because you have a penis, or because you just *are* a man? If you had an accident and your penis dropped off, would you stop being a man? No, you wouldn't.

Knowing your gender is no different to knowing your sexuality. It just is what it is. Sometimes the gender that a person knows that they are doesn't match their genes. It's not delusion.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm not sure that is necessarily what you meant to say?

It's a bit unfair to quote that out of context, because in its original context it clearly implied a suffix of "in the game of football" because the entire post was on the subject of football, including the sentence after it.
 
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