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Transpennine Express December 2019 Proposals

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ainsworth74

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Unthinkable for TPE certainly. Plenty of other operators have brought in old emergency stock to reduce overcrowding.

Yes unthinkable is perhaps a little strong but how about very difficult? That seems fair. HT managed it mostly because they were staring down the barrel of just not being able to a run their service full stop (yes TPE have had some terrible days but nothing like HT had in percentage terms at times before the HST!). Other operators manage it on an ad-hoc basis such as XC during industrial cobbled together a charter operator to provide a service between York and Chesterfield for instance or Northern to provide a service on the Windermere branch. But those were exactly that ad-hoc. The only other places that have done it long term have been Greater Anglia and Scotrail and there the rakes were in use for years (or still are!) so going through the rigmarole of organising crew training, clearances, insurance cover for a different style of operation, depots for the temporary stock, etc etc. Then remember that this gets in the way of training crew on the new stock and preparing for their introduction behind the scenes so could very well delay the new fleet even further.

Impossible? No, of course not. But difficult? Very. Potentially furthering the disruption? Yes, quite possibly.
 
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JonathanH

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Plenty of other operators have brought in old emergency stock to reduce overcrowding.

Really? Some have retained old stock they already operated - not convinced that many operators have brought in 'emergency old stock' on a widespread basis.

The HSTs at Scotrail aren't really going much better than TPE's new stock. Besides, plenty of the Nova fleet is accepted and operational - the problem is staff training.
 

YorkshireBear

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I was explaining the training problem to someone interested on the train yesterday.

She said your just making excuses for them it's just bad management. My reply was, it's not an excuse its the reason. How the reason came about is most certainly bad management (planning) etc.

I appreciate the late delivery of CAF stock really has not helped them but they don't even seem to have small contingencies.

The leeds Manchester commute (now in my 5th year) has gone from being pleasant and reliable to mentally draining and chaotic. It's horrible and takes its toll on myself and I sense many of the other poor commuters.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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On the plus side, the new Liverpool-Glasgow service seems to have operated all its scheduled legs since the timetable change.
(Except the last southbound on Sunday which terminated at Preston - crew problem.)
 

ainsworth74

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Though that was on one dead end branch line for four trains per day so hardly the most taxing requirements for training crews.

- Hull Trains with their 2 HSTs - all the same driver training issues apply

As mentioned HT were faced with not being able to run their service at all so had a heck of a lot more impetus to do something. Even then the number of crew that required training is smaller, all the stations they served already were cleared for slam door stock and they've had to stop calling at some stations for various reasons (Howden, Cottingham and Beverley).

- Anglia with various episodes of loco haulage

Something which became long term so it made sense to train the relevant staff on and also didn't clash with training the all on their new stock.

- ScotRail - Class 365s required all the staff training and gauge clearance etc

I'll grant you there's more similarity with TPE here but even so it's by no means exact. ScotRail crews already signed EMUs in many cases (and certainly they signed MUs), the stock they were going to use was relatively modern with power doors so was similar to what they already use and there was depot capacity for them to be easily kept there long term. If there had been a fleet of DMUs suitable for use on TPE that had just come off lease then I think you'd have an argument. But there wasn't and isn't.
 

Starmill

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This is a bit of a silly discussion.

TransPennine Express had the opportunity to use some additional trains as a stopgap, it was even written into their franchise agreement.

They decided not to do it, except for two services one night two years ago, for whatever their own reasons for that may have been.

Having made that decision, it was fairly clear that they weren't going to do anything else similar.
 

scarby

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This morning at Scarborough the supposed "earlier" first departure at 05.34 didn't leave until 06.36 and was terminated at York.

Then the following 06.34 left at 06.39 but was 26 late by the time it got to York.

This really is bottom of the barrel stuff when the first trains of the day can't even be run on time. For decades previously if there was one thing you could stone cold rely on it was that the first train of the day would leave on time.
 

37201xoIM

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Unthinkable for TPE certainly. Plenty of other operators have brought in old emergency stock to reduce overcrowding.
Agreed - in the context I outlined above (err, where I meant to say they had pretty free reign to maximise revenue and minimise cost, not the reverse!!!) without the franchise being actively managed by TfN / RNP, adding cost and complication may well be described as "unthinkable", as obvious an indictment as that is of franchisor and franchisee.
 

scarby

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Except for the hiccup this morning with 68027 (unusual, as that's been the most reliable so far) and the subsequent cancellation of its diagram for the day, I would say Scarborough is having its its best TPE service for some weeks, so far (that'll jinx it now!):

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...-1600?stp=WVS&show=passenger&order=wtt&toc=TP

There does appear to be some improvement in the punctuality, but there was still a cancellation. Let's hope that the cancellations will soon be banished and we can see some sort of a return to an acceptable service.
 

37201xoIM

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This is a bit of a silly discussion.

TransPennine Express had the opportunity to use some additional trains as a stopgap, it was even written into their franchise agreement.

They decided not to do it, except for two services one night two years ago, for whatever their own reasons for that may have been.

Having made that decision, it was fairly clear that they weren't going to do anything else similar.
Exactly so - when they were let off regarding Mk3s, we knew the die was effectively cast.
 

geoffk

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Thanks goodness they put an emergency timetable in to reduce the number of cancellations.
If things are so bad why on earth did they go ahead with the extension from Newcastle to Edinburgh? This must be the reason why TPE timetable leaflets are not on display in racks - you have to ask for them at the ticket office.
 

Starmill

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Commercial and contractual pressure was probably very strong to introduce the Edinburgh timetable enhancement now, because otherwise it would have to wait until May.
 

Ben Bow

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There does appear to be some improvement in the punctuality, but there was still a cancellation. Let's hope that the cancellations will soon be banished and we can see some sort of a return to an acceptable service.

As feared, spoke too soon, all collapsed again. Utterly ridiculous.
 

86247

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Steve Rotherham and Andy Burnham are after northern and TPE both want them stripping of their franchise. Both have said northern should be sooner rather than later, then TPE should be after them. sometimes it feels like a witch hunt. Both don't have any power to do this what so ever .
 

AndyHudds

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Steve Rotherham and Andy Burnham are after northern and TPE both want them stripping of their franchise. Both have said northern should be sooner rather than later, then TPE should be after them. sometimes it feels like a witch hunt. Both don't have any power to do this what so ever .

Thing is, if they do strip them, would anything be any different? Probably not although the current set up is totally shambolic. TPE seem to be blaming everyone and his dog and not taking any responsibility themselves, they knew this was coming yet did they have a plan for it? We can all understand about the training, after all you wouldn't let a rookie pilot loose with a jumbo jet with 500 on board would you? So I guess it's no different for a train.

They are franchised to run services agreed and on that score they are failing terribly at the minute. When will this madness end?
 

86247

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nothing would happen,it can't be fixed overnight by a different operator the problem would still be there, late running, trains cancelled left right and centre. you have TPE starting new services to Edinburgh or Glasgow from Liverpool then most are cancelled or running extremely late. Someone from the government or the DFT needs to drag the management in from both companies and ask them what the hell is going on.
 

Wtloild

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Thing is, if they do strip them, would anything be any different?
How much could be specified in a new franchise agreement? Is the the scope to learn from current fiascos, or the franchise agreements very much a pro-forma applied universally with little room for common sense?
E.g:
Could a minimum staffing level per number of services be specified?
Could a contingency plan be required when ordering new stock?
Could sorting out a 7-day contract with staff be a requirement?
Could a future franchise include stuffer penalities for cancelled services?
 

TrainTube

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On the plus side, the new Liverpool-Glasgow service seems to have operated all its scheduled legs since the timetable change.
(Except the last southbound on Sunday which terminated at Preston - crew problem.)
Am I right in saying these will be 397/802 operated? After all, the entirety of the route is under the wires so it would be a waste to use diesel units or other.

I think TPE shouldn't have handed over its 350s until all 397s were in service. This would've freed up 185s meaning less problems.
 

swt_passenger

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Am I right in saying these will be 397/802 operated? After all, the entirety of the route is under the wires so it would be a waste to use diesel units or other.

I think TPE shouldn't have handed over its 350s until all 397s were in service. This would've freed up 185s meaning less problems.
397 only on the west side (ie WCML routes) is the plan, the 802s use their bimode capability to get over to the ECML...
 

Failed Unit

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Am I right in saying these will be 397/802 operated? After all, the entirety of the route is under the wires so it would be a waste to use diesel units or other.

I think TPE shouldn't have handed over its 350s until all 397s were in service. This would've freed up 185s meaning less problems.

They are lucky actually no-one wants the 185s to be honest. But why should the lease owner of the 350s suffer? TPE decided to order new stock. TPE decide when to end the lease. Why should the ROSCO break their contact because TPE didn’t keep the existing stock long enough? TPEs didn’t want to pay 2 leases. They took the gamble. It backfired. It would be totally unreasonable the new operator of the stock should lose out because of TPEs managements bad decisions. If that happens then all TOCs will behave the same way. ScotRail found out the hard way as well the not keeping old stock long enough has consequences.
 

Glenn1969

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Tempted to say it's a pity Northern doesn't want the 185s. Them heading there would help herald the end of the Pacers surely. Hope TPE gets its act together soon
 

AndyHudds

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Tempted to say it's a pity Northern doesn't want the 185s. Them heading there would help herald the end of the Pacers surely. Hope TPE gets its act together soon

If this morning's fiasco at Huddersfield is anything to go by, looks like they won't.

6.46 Redcar Central cancelled
6.49 stopper to Leeds delayed
7.00 Scarborough delayed

Westbound service affected too.

It's misery is this commute.
 

TrainTube

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They are lucky actually no-one wants the 185s to be honest. But why should the lease owner of the 350s suffer? TPE decided to order new stock. TPE decide when to end the lease. Why should the ROSCO break their contact because TPE didn’t keep the existing stock long enough? TPEs didn’t want to pay 2 leases. They took the gamble. It backfired. It would be totally unreasonable the new operator of the stock should lose out because of TPEs managements bad decisions. If that happens then all TOCs will behave the same way. ScotRail found out the hard way as well the not keeping old stock long enough has consequences.
Sorry, should've worded it different, I meant that TPE should've decided to end the lease later.
 
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