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Transpennine Express December 2019 Proposals

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yorkie

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By definition if a service provision is a franchise requirement, it cannot also be a so-called 'ORCATS raid', surely?

We have two people arguing this point, but there isn't much evidence posted for anyone to come to a conclusion. If someone wants to claim an 'ORCATS raid' I think the onus is on them to demonstrate this point?

Can some evidence be posted to support either view? Either way, the argument is tedious without any conclusive evidence being posted.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Presumably the missing Liverpool-Edinburgh diagrams will actually be filled with Nova 1 ECS services for intensive crew training.
I see from RTT that the affected trains are due to be in passenger service in the new year.
We shall see...
 

BeHereNow

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If you were at risk of going bust, wouldn't you operate in the most commercially aggressive way possible?
 

notlob.divad

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By definition if a service provision is a franchise requirement, it cannot also be a so-called 'ORCATS raid', surely?
Was it in the franchise tender, or was it only added to the franchise requirement after it was included in the winning bid? I think I would use the franchise tender document as my basis for this kind of definition rather than the agreement.
 

BeHereNow

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It was not in franchise tender.

Bear in mind that DfT unlikely to intervene as to do so would mean paying the bill for the loss of revenue.

The point about ORCATS is that by running a quarter of the services between Newcastle and Edinburgh they immediately get a quarter of the revenue - or roughly that. Getting this kind of financial benefit is how you win a franchise in the first place.

It's not cynical to point this out, nor of TPE to do it. It's not their fault that this is how the system works.
 

yorkie

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There is also the question of what is an "ORCATS raid"?

I see no evidence to support the view that these services are an "ORCATS raid", but plenty of evidence to suggest that they are not.
It means introducing a train service designed to get a share of the revenues for traffic on a certain route, even if the passengers don't use the service but continue to use the existing operator. I'm sure others can put more meat on the bones.
By this definition, it isn't an "ORCATS raid" if people actually use the service (which remains to be seen, but it's difficult to believe a decent number of people won't use it)
It's worth saying that when an open access operator applies to the ORR to introduce the service, one of the things they have to demonstrate is that they are meeting demand not properly met elsewhere and the effect of the service is not primarily to abstract existing revenue from elsewhere....
Surely the DfT would never allow one franchise to have a commitment to operate in a way that is primarily extractive from an existing operator?

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6KiaDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT140&lpg=PT140&dq=orcats+raid&source=bl&ots=XL3X2DlDsA&sig=ACfU3U35FA-LmZNEnEiNORuK9avHVoG3kQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiSmMH53ajmAhUBhlwKHQNBDX8Q6AEwBHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=orcats raid&f=false
...ORCATS raiding is a mischevious and cynical tactic rarely motivated by a desire to improve the level of service. Although ORCATS raiding had been outlawed by industry regulations, operators could still attempt it...
Surely the DfT would not ratify any such attempt?

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/c...d7ea30dffc055&topic=17650.msg204237#msg204237
The Bath starter has only been in the timetable since 2010. Introduced solely as an ORCATS raid and not to provide improved journey opportunities....
 

Clarence Yard

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It was not in franchise tender.

Bear in mind that DfT unlikely to intervene as to do so would mean paying the bill for the loss of revenue.

The point about ORCATS is that by running a quarter of the services between Newcastle and Edinburgh they immediately get a quarter of the revenue - or roughly that. Getting this kind of financial benefit is how you win a franchise in the first place.

It's not cynical to point this out, nor of TPE to do it. It's not their fault that this is how the system works.

No, you don't get a quarter of the revenue. You only get a proportion of the "Inter-Available" revenue, depending on how fast your trains are, what time of day they run and the relationship between your train and those before and after it.

"Inter-Available" is now peanuts on the main ECML flows, which can be up to 80% Dedicated. So you have to compete not only on timetable position and journey time, you have to compete on price, your on board offer and the value of your through journey to the punter.

ORCATS splits only work on the "Inter-Available" tickets (unless you are in an inter operator agreement on Dedicated tickets on a fixed %) so the days of blindly going raiding are over. A common mistake in the industry is to treat the outputs from the MOIRA revenue prediction system as gospel because at the top level it treats all revenue as "IA" - it's a very good way to go bust quickly if you don't factor in an estimate for other operators Dedicated revenue or taper your competitive effect.
 

transmanche

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"Inter-Available" is now peanuts on the main ECML flows, which can be up to 80% Dedicated.
I know it's been years since I bought an inter-available ticket for a journey on the ECML.

So you have to compete not only on timetable position and journey time, you have to compete on price, your on board offer and the value of your through journey to the punter.
Taking Newcastle to Edinburgh as an example: the Off-Peak Return (SVR) costs £56.10. However, both XC and LNER have operator-specific tickets for £44.15.[*] It looks like the TPE-only Off-Peak Return (SVR) will be £42.00.

That means a flexible inter-available ticket is around 25% more expensive than a flexible operator-specific-fare. I really can't see many people choosing to pay that premium.

[*] Although the LNER version is an Off-Peak Day Return (E4R), and as they're the inter-available fare-setter I presume that it's a short term offer which is coincidentally(!) the same price as XC's period Off-Peak Return (XXR).
 

tpjm

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So Hull passengers get disadvantaged just for the sake of Leeds-Manchester stops. How can that be right?
Off-peak, December's service (HUL-MAN) will take 1hr 54mins, including 6 minutes of pathing time at the end of the journey. The current off-peak service takes 1hr 58mins and has less pathing time at the end. In the peak (3x AM, 3x PM) the journey takes 2hrs 3 mins with 3 mins of pathing. This is a small price to pay, given that it allows the removal of the 7th tph (in the peak) between Stalybridge and Huddersfield, currently operated by Northern, and provides these communities with a consistent and regular stopping pattern.
 

37201xoIM

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Can I clarify? I was involved (unfortunately) in franchise spec and (far more unfortunately) continue to be involved with what is laughably and somewhat loosely referred to as the "franchise management" with regard to this and Northern.

It's an error to think an "ORCATS raid" is something not in the franchise agreement (FA) Train Service Requirement (TSR) - or rather, that would be defining the term so narrowly that the term ceases to be useful.

Two main points here, really:

1. In both the TP and NT TSRs, there are a large number of services that feature in the FA TSR but were not in the Invitation To Tender (ITT) TSR, i.e. were not in the original franchise spec put out by DfT (with a bit of input from Rail North, as it then was). What is however striking, if you compare the ITT and FA versions for both franchises, is that overwhelmingly these "extras" were things that could be described as "ORCATS raids" in the sense that they were (a) strong existing rail markets, and (b) were currently mostly served by a different TOC. That does not mean to say that there were not also real passenger benefits to these "extras" in terms of quantum and/or through connectivity - but it's perfectly legitimate to question whether they are/were the things the North needs/needed most urgently. The reality, however, is that the headline premium / subsidy profiles of both TOCs were / are heavily dependent on these services running. (Examples of these "extras" are, NT, Leeds - Hull, York - Scarborough, and Calder - Liverpool; and on TPE the extension of the MIA - Yorks to Newcastle, and that of the Liverpool - Newcastles to Edinburgh. I'm not expressing an opinion on them here, just saying that there were prominent amongst the examples of "extras" in the FA TSRs.)

2. From that last point comes this: the TOCs were and are very, very keen to go ahead with these "extras". NT have much less bargaining power on the network and overstretched resources (and the franchise won't last much longer anyway). However TPE have been seen as able to survive, but only if essentially they are allowed a fairly free reign to maximise cost and minimise revenue..... OK, that is a bit of an exaggeration, but I have in mind the extremely "light regulatory touch" which allowed the Mark 3s not to be introduced; the North trans-Pennine capacity (strengthening) to be progressively reduced after 2016; the extension of the MIA-Yorks to happen despite lack of train capacity and dire performance on the core network; the "repaired" 350 to be returned to the RoSCo rather than used to re-strengthen the WCML fleet and reduce pressure on 185s until the 397s were in squadron service... and most recently to press ahead, I gather, with Liverpool - Newcastle - Edinburgh (TSR and other derogations have to be signed off by said franchise managers representing, ahem, the interests of the North). This is about prioritisation - if the franchise managers had insisted that the core network be adequately resourced by TPE before they allowed them to go ahead with NCL-EDB, then I think their fear may have been that TPE might have threatened to hand back the keys.

So actually, before you all lay on him, Failed Unit really isn't all that far off the mark!

PS Good post by Clarence Yard. I'm neither attacking nor defending the practice (well, not here anyway!), nor saying whether it is actually even the right thing to do commercially or not. I'll happily say the system is broken, but not in this post!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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This is about prioritisation - if the franchise managers had insisted that the core network be adequately resourced by TPE before they allowed them to go ahead with NCL-EDB, then I think their fear may have been that TPE might have threatened to hand back the keys.

A highly illuminating post.
There's also the issue of First Group's survival in the face of its wider financial problems and shareholder revolt.
Generally, FG has had an easier ride with DfT recently than has Arriva.
It's a long time since FG lost Greater Anglia and Scotrail and looked to be on their way out of rail - a position taken over by National Express and now Virgin/Stagecoach.
The DfT dispute with Virgin/Stagecoach (still to be adjudicated) also played in their favour with West Coast.
 

37201xoIM

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Interesting thought, Joint, but my feeling is that in the North it's probably less about the owning group than, in the context of the "devolution" of the two franchises (stop laughing!), the Oscar Wilde problem: "To lose one franchise, Mr Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness...!"
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Interesting thought, Joint, but my feeling is that in the North it's probably less about the owning group than, in the context of the "devolution" of the two franchises (stop laughing!), the Oscar Wilde problem: "To lose one franchise, Mr Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness...!"

:lol:
 

Failed Unit

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Difficult task for the regulatory bodies to be honest. It is easy to say “first” made their bed let them sleep in in.

But if TPE make their revenue by extracting it from LNER and XC (even if it is by undercutting AP fares) we could find 2 more franchises that no-one wants. GNER complained HT and GC extracted to much revenue to cause them to fail. Personally I think they made too much of it. I can’t see the Edinburgh- Leeds market being that big that a half hourly service is going to create lots of extra revenue to the railway. I expect it may increase journey numbers at a lower yield. Keeping TPE afloat may have consequences to LNER and XC long term. However neither of them will take it laying down. I suspect it is going to be like the bus wars. A race to the bottom on fares until one of the operators can’t take it anymore.

interesting post however. Does confirm a lot of what I have suspected.

Out of the May 2018 problems. GTR have improved. (Maybe the media spotlight) TPE seems as bad as ever (but GTR took the flak to begin with and Northern more so recently) - TPE have shown more contempt to passengers then GTR recently.

It is maybe a different discussion but it does appear that once you have won the franchise you can do what you like. (Unless you are stagecoach of course ;) ) as dft don’t want another franchise failure in the press - we have a general election you know.
 

transmanche

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GNER complained HT and GC extracted to much revenue to cause them to fail.
GNER ceased operating on 8 December 2007, ten days before Grand Central ran their first service.

I can’t see the Edinburgh- Leeds market being that big that a half hourly service is going to create lots of extra revenue to the railway. I expect it may increase journey numbers at a lower yield. Keeping TPE afloat may have consequences to LNER and XC long term. However neither of them will take it laying down. I suspect it is going to be like the bus wars. A race to the bottom on fares until one of the operators can’t take it anymore.
Why do you think 2tph between Leeds and Edinburgh will cause 'a race to the bottom on fares' when this doesn't appear to have happened with the existing 3tph between Leeds and Newcastle, or York and Edinburgh?
 

hibtastic

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I might be wrong but isn’t Craigentinny one of the depots looking after the TPE 802s? If that’s the case then you can see why extending the Liverpool to Newcastle services to Edinburgh was a good idea.
 

JonathanH

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I might be wrong but isn’t Craigentinny one of the depots looking after the TPE 802s? If that’s the case then you can see why extending the Liverpool to Newcastle services to Edinburgh was a good idea.

You are not wrong - two TP 802s at Craigentinny each night in the long term plan - others at Heaton, Doncaster Carr and Edge Hill.
 

Failed Unit

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GNER ceased operating on 8 December 2007, ten days before Grand Central ran their first service.

Why do you think 2tph between Leeds and Edinburgh will cause 'a race to the bottom on fares' when this doesn't appear to have happened with the existing 3tph between Leeds and Newcastle, or York and Edinburgh?
Look west where they have an exclusive market (Manchester- Scotland). Look at the prices they charge on Preston - Scotland flows. Look at how overcrowded the trains are. They are out to suck as much revenue from Virgin trains as they possibly can to the detrimental effect of their own customers who often can’t get a seat. (We can watch with interest now to see if the number of cheapest seats on offer drops as they will hurt another first franchise if they continue)

Look at Leeds - Edinburgh.
3 choices.
Fly. (Infrequent)
Drive (about 5 hours)
Rail (about 3 hours)

rail is in pole position will 1 extra TPE make much difference on someone choosing to travel? No. They will make that journey if they have 1tph or 2tph absolutely.

So why would someone travel by TPE?
1. Speed - not this time it is quicker by XC if you want direct or LNER if you don’t.
2. Frequency? XC and TPE are the same.
3. Quality- TPE might be better here we shall see.
4. Reliable? - XC are not bad here - TPEs are not so great. (Perhaps they should focus on this before starting a new service ;))
5. Price. This is where TPE will fight. Let’s say it is £50 now. They will go in at £40. Deliberately to get a difference from XC. XC and LNER will respond.

But one thing is for certain this service is purely in existence to extract money from existing operating company’s. It is not there to generate new journeys to rail as all flows can already be completed easily. (Watch them grow the Huddersfield- Edinburgh Market and Empty the M6 as people don’t want to change at York or Manchester)

I can see no reason why anyone would use TPE between Edinburgh and York other than an operator specific cheap fare. The trains are the same as LNERs but the journey time is much slower. From Edinburgh the TPE service is 3 minutes after the LNER.

Not saying such competition is a bad thing. What I am saying is that to open up a new service primary to extract revenue from an existing operator(s) is wrong when they can’t manage to operate their core network. I am sure people travelling from Liverpool - Leeds will agree as they are forced to stand on the now hourly service. (Or wait as they can’t physically board their chosen service) It is ok trains are running with maybe 20 passengers on them to Edinburgh. TPE lose nothing from treating their core passengers in this despicable way. But it appears that my view may be correct. First will walk away if they are not allowed to focus on revenue extraction over serving their passengers. The have the dft in a corner as a failed franchise is bad at an election time.

No-one has posted why this service is needed. No-one has suggested how it will bring new revenue to the railway. Apparently the onus is on me to prove this. Unfortunately I won’t be able to until Xc and LNER publish their drops in revenue. I will refrain from calling it an Orcats raid if that is what upsets you. Will reword it to say it is a service designed primarily to extract revenue from other operating companies.

one last point. The depot at Edinburgh. They could run the first and last trains to it if they need the servicing capacity like BR used to do with cross country.

Remember these are private operators. They are not in it for the passengers they are in it to make as much money as they can. They didn’t think when they bid Edinburgh I can make the UK network better they thought I can make £. If this money comes from other franchises who cares. If they can’t make money they will go. Something we are already seeing with the loss of stagecoach and national express. To first group everything they do is about maximum profit - not customer focus as most of their Leeds - Manchester key revenues are locked into rail.
 
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transmanche

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Look west where they have an exclusive market (Manchester- Scotland). Look at the prices they charge on Preston - Scotland flows. Look at how overcrowded the trains are. They are out to suck as much revenue from Virgin trains as they possibly can to the detrimental effect of their own customers who often can’t get a seat.
Would it be any different if XC still ran that service rather than TPE? Would you be accusing them of trying to 'suck as much revenue' from the West Coast operator?
 

Failed Unit

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Would it be any different if XC still ran that service rather than TPE? Would you be accusing them of trying to 'suck as much revenue' from the West Coast operator?
Yes. If they did they behaved the same way as TPE do. Likewise Northern’s proposed routes that compete against TPE are designed to extract as much of TPEs revenue as possible. However they are blocked at the moment to allow Northern to focus on their primary business. TPE should also be blocked until they can operate their core business reliably. People in Scarborough would welcome them (Northern) as TPE don’t really bother with that market anymore. (With a whole thread on that)

My beef with TPE is they are failing to operate their core business but getting allowed to go for a service that is designed to extract revenue from another operator. This service could wait until May 2020. Or until they can operate the service within their franchise agreement (cancellations and time keeping %) Dft would not say you are breaking a franchise commitment if it was for the purpose of running their main business reliably. To me sort the main service out before going for other operators revenue. That should be the priority. But we shall agree to disagree on this as I don’t want to upset the moderators.

once they can run the core reliably. All is fair in love and war.
 
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transmanche

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Likewise Northern’s proposed routes that compete against TPE are designed to extract as much of TPEs revenue as possible.
Which Northern routes are designed solely to compete with TPE? If there are any, then it was silly of the DfT to put them into the Franchise Agreement and TSR.

My beef with TPE is they are failing to operate their core business but getting allowed to go for a service that is designed to extract revenue from another operator.
You keep asking why are they 'allowed'. Neither you nor I know the specifics of any penalty regime that may apply for failing to start the service. Maybe the question you need to ask yourself is 'why are they being made to start this service now'?

I and others have also suggested some practical, logistical reasons why TPE are compelled to start the service now. Someone else has suggested that the reason for cancelling Edinburgh-Liverpool services is to ensure a more reliable service on the Scarborough-Manchester route.

However, you do seem to be fixated on the thought that TPE is a bunch of money-grabbing so-and-sos and refuse to entertain any other possible explanation.
 

Failed Unit

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Which Northern routes are designed solely to compete with TPE? If there are any, then it was silly of the DfT to put them into the Franchise Agreement and TSR.

You keep asking why are they 'allowed'. Neither you nor I know the specifics of any penalty regime that may apply for failing to start the service. Maybe the question you need to ask yourself is 'why are they being made to start this service now'?

I and others have also suggested some practical, logistical reasons why TPE are compelled to start the service now. Someone else has suggested that the reason for cancelling Edinburgh-Liverpool services is to ensure a more reliable service on the Scarborough-Manchester route.

However, you do seem to be fixated on the thought that TPE is a bunch of money-grabbing so-and-sos and refuse to entertain any other possible explanation.

Read post 193.

I have not seen any evidence they are compelled to start running to Edinburgh. More they need the money.

As we both know. They lose nothing from cancelling trains in the core. Upset a few passengers but doesn’t hit their revenue. Running to Edinburgh enables them to start extracting revenue sooner. Something they need to do to survive.

I just can’t see even our civil servants having the following conversation.

TPE - “we can’t reliably operate our current network. Lots of cancellations daily, we don’t have the resources to run to Edinburgh”
DFT - “it is a franchise commitment”
TPE - “but we will have to reduce services on our core network. Passengers between Liverpool and Leeds will see their service frequency halved at times of the day. Passengers will be left on the platform as over crowding will be intolerable. It makes the rail industry look bad”
DfT - “we don’t care it is a franchise commitment”
TPE - “other operators already provide a frequent service on the route. It isn’t needed in December. Only Huddersfield will lose out but how will they people of that city react to not having the ability to travel to work?”
Dft - “we don’t care it was a franchise commitment”
Tpe - “why are northern allowed to delay their Scarborough and Hull services they are a franchise commitment.
Dft - “who cares about Scarborough and Hull? - now get on with it”

I very much doubt TPE are getting forced to operate to Edinburgh.
 

BeHereNow

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If DfT made them not run it, they'd have to pay them the 'lost' revenue (which is what they stated in the bid).
 

Failed Unit

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If DfT made them not run it, they'd have to pay them the 'lost' revenue (which is what they stated in the bid).
I would hope not considering their performance over the last 2 years But it would be an interesting can of worms as they would need to demonstrate where this lost revenue would come from that they need compensation for. Won’t look good when all they can show is they would take it from other franchises.

We have a few operators struggling that have not met franchise commitments. South West Railway and Anglia. Not much compensation coming forward.
 
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_toommm_

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This message has appeared on their Twitter over the past 24 hours - make of it what you will, but I feel it to be quite genuine, compared to the likes of Greater Anglia's statement on the issues they're having with their new trains:

'An apology

Over recent weeks we have cancelled a number of services, causing a lot of disruption and frustration for our customers and for this we wholeheartedly apologise. As we bring in our new trains it has an associated impact upon crew training and our train maintenance schedule. This coupled with the autumnal weather, high number of recent flooding incidents and infrastructure issues has created a lot of disruption on certain parts of our network.

Please be assured that we are working around the clock to address these issues so that our customers can get to where they need to be and that we can deliver a service that we can once again be proud of.

Thank you for bearing with us.

Anyone who has had their journey delayed by 30 minutes or more can claim Delay Repay via our website.'

Screenshot_20191211-102004_Twitter.jpg
 

37201xoIM

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Read post 193...(original text deleted to save space!)
This post really is broadly right in the essentials, except (pedantically!) that "DfT" should strictly read "Rail North Partnership" (for which read "DfT" in reality!!); and that running the existing core service is also of course a "franchise commitment" - just one which in the view of many (including myself) is not being enforced with anything like the priority it should.

As Orwell observed, all franchise commitments are equal, but some are more equal than others.

As regards comparable examples in Northern's TSR, Transmanche and others, see above - though I don't think anybody would justify the word "solely" being used, as my own post made clear.

The point about 802s being maintained at EC is a fair one factually as far as I'm aware, but not really material to the question of the rationale behind these services: once the services (in this case NCL-EDB) are in the TSR, then of course one would resource them in the most efficient way possible!
 
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